How Does Minus Contradict The Manga?

[Gyt Kaliba]

The way I see it, we now just have two different versions of Bardock's story, the same way we already had two different versions of Trunks' story. No big deal.

And ironically enough, the general consensus seems to be that the anime version of both are better than the manga versions. Never thought I'd see the day where that was the case, heh.

[Rocketman]

Why Minus is so hated? Because is almost identical to Superman's backstory? Because contradict the anime?

Because it's new and different and people don't like having the status quo shaken.

Because it's bad. If it was good, nobody would have a problem with it.

You desperately want to paint this as detractors all being old fuddy-duddies, but it's just not the case.

[Payne222]

People like to bitch about everything. It doesn't contradict the manga anymore than Toriyama has in multiple points in the series by forgetting things. It's perfectly fine, unless you have a stick up your ass.

[eledoremassis02]

I also consider it be apart of the Manga story line the and anime special to be apart of the anime

[Gyt Kaliba]

Because it's bad. If it was good, nobody would have a problem with it.

You desperately want to paint this as detractors all being old fuddy-duddies, but it's just not the case.

Something being 'good' or 'bad' is entirely subjective though. Taking Battle of Gods for example, there are probably about an equal amount of people that thought it were good compared to the people that thought it was bad (though the latter group is certainly a hell of a lot more vocal about it...). It can therefore be considered good since clearly a lot of people do think of it as that, and yet, there are still people who have problems with it.

Minus is again, to me at least, not a particularly great story, but is certainly far more harmless of one than a lot of people take it as. So with a lot of the over-the-top complaints on it, and everything else new, it kinda is pretty easy to play the 'old fuddy-duddie' card.

[Rocketman]

Minus is again, to me at least, not a particularly great story, but is certainly far more harmless of one than a lot of people take it as.

It destroys the entire theme of the Saiyan arc and gives nothing in return.

[Mewzard]

Because it's bad. If it was good, nobody would have a problem with it.

You desperately want to paint this as detractors all being old fuddy-duddies, but it's just not the case.

That's not true at all. Nothing on Earth is so good it's universally loved. You can find people who would argue against plants and water, despite both being important to us air-breathing sacks of water.

It's also not like the Bardock special is some perfect entity. The plot railroad of psychic powers that can somehow be stabbed into you just in time to warn you of your planet being blown up so you follow along with the plan while your race of space-fairing planet conquerors just happen almost entirely be on planet to meet the whims of a planet destroyer is ridiculously forced.

At least Dragon Ball Minus had Freeza plan the destruction ahead, having the Saiyans called back to the planet. Bardock actually using his brain and instincts to figure out something was wrong rather than forced psychic powers was also nice. I was also partial to seeing a bit of Saiyan culture (which we didn't get much of in the special), seeing what Raditz was up to, and Gine's appearance (always nice to see both parents of a character, Shonen loves having one or both parents missing/never shown).

Is Minus perfect? Definitely not. It's far too short for its own good to get the development it deserved (more character moments would be appreciated), and was somewhat slow.

But I feel the Bardock Special and Minus are a lot closer in quality than people give it credit for. A mix of nostalgia and people having their head canons set hard are probably responsible for that.

It destroys the entire theme of the Saiyan arc and gives nothing in return.

I would say it gives us the irony of viewing the whole of his race (parents included) as monsters without much redeeming value, when there were aspects of good among them (even if Bardock's more a dark gray, with only a slight bit of good just for his family).

They save their son, only for him to learn of his race and view them as just like the ones who killed his friends. I'd say that's something.

[Daisetsu]

If it was good, nobody would have a problem with it.

By that logic, Dragon Ball is obviously bad since many people have problems with it.

[rereboy]

If it was good, nobody would have a problem with it.

By that logic, Dragon Ball is obviously bad since many people have problems with it.

People have problems with parts of it and that makes them love DB a little less than they could otherwise. However, they believe that most, or almost all, of Dragon Ball is good and that's why they like it.

Rocketman is right, if people actually thought it was good, they could notice a problem or two within it but the fans wouldn't have a problem with the special itself. But, since they think its pretty "meh", or even bad, they bitch about it.

[Luso Saiyan]

Because it's bad. If it was good, nobody would have a problem with it.

That's a fallacy.

[rereboy]

Because it's bad. If it was good, nobody would have a problem with it.

That's a fallacy.

Considering that some were claiming that people have a problem with it just because, its appropriate to state that people have a problem with it because they don't think its good.

[Luso Saiyan]

Considering that some were claiming that people have a problem with it just because, its appropriate to state that people have a problem with it because they don't think its good.

The quality of something doesn't rely on the number of people who have a problem with it. To say that "if it was good, nobody would have a problem with it" is (as I've stated before) a fallacy.

[VegettoEX]

Let's forgo the constant back-and-forths over semantics now, please. Please be sure to contribute actual thoughts and critiques to your posts.

[rereboy]

The quality of something doesn't rely on the number of people who have a problem with it. To say that "if it was good, nobody would have a problem with it" is (as I've stated before) a fallacy.

Actually, it does, because appreciating a manga is a completely subjective activity. Something like that has quality or not depending on what the person thinks about it. There's no scientific determination of quality regarding a manga, its just subjective.

Therefore, if a person doesn't think a manga is good, that manga, in fact, is not good for that person. The same way, for people who think that Minus is "meh" or bad overall, Minus is, in fact, not good for them, and that's why they complain about it, fully stating and addressing all the problems they have with it. If they thought it was good overall, even if they noticed a problem or two, they might talk about those problems, but obviously their opinion of the manga would be much more positive.

[Luso Saiyan]

Actually, it does, because appreciating a manga is a completely subjective activity.

Thus making the number of people irrelevant, which only reinforces my point. Ad populum is ad populum, there's no way around it.

[rereboy]

Actually, it does, because appreciating a manga is a completely subjective activity.

Thus making the number of people irrelevant, which only reinforces my point. Ad populum is ad populum, there's no way around it.

I think there was a misunderstanding along the way in our conversation. My point was never that the number of persons is relevant for any determination. That was never in discussion, I believe.

What was in discussion was the motivation for the people's statements regarding Minus. I thought you were talking about that. Some suggested that people bitch about it with no reason. In response to that, it was stated that, no, people bitch because they don't think it was good. And like I explained, that's a perfectly adequate response and a perfectly truthful statement.

The number of people doesn't really matter and I don't see where that was being discussed.

[Luso Saiyan]

The number of people doesn't really matter and I don't see where that was being discussed.

Here:

If it was good, nobody would have a problem with it.

[rereboy]

The number of people doesn't really matter and I don't see where that was being discussed.

Here:

If it was good, nobody would have a problem with it.

All I get from that is Rocketman saying that if people had thought Minus was good, they wouldn't have a problem with Minus. I don't see him arguing that the number of people has any importance for any determination.

I mean, you can interpret his words as him trying to suggest that Minus is not objectively good and that's why people have problems with it, but I don't interpret it that way.

[FoolsGil]

Not a contradiction, but it perhaps makes Raditz' death kind of tragic- Just a big misunderstanding.

Well, I suppose with him being 3 now upon getting to earth, he met Bulma when he was 15, not 12(and thought he was 14) Which means he was a 18 at the 22nd Budokai and barely taller than Krillin? That's a big one.

[dbgtFO]

Not a contradiction, but it perhaps makes Raditz' death kind of tragic- Just a big misunderstanding.

Well, I suppose with him being 3 now upon getting to earth, he met Bulma when he was 15, not 12(and thought he was 14) Which means he was a 18 at the 22nd Budokai and barely taller than Krillin? That's a big one.

Goku was still 12, when he met Bulma. Grandpa Gohan just corrctly assumed Goku was ~3 years, when he found him.