SSJGSS confirmed stronger than SSJ4?

[Truhan]

Given that the Potara earrings were for the Kaioushin (who had god ki) to begin with, there's no reason to believe that it wouldn't affect their god ki in the same way as their normal ki

But Shin and Kibito didn't get much stronger that they could beat Super Buu, now did they? Perhaps their normal Ki got multiplied by each other, and their God ki was only added to one another, before arriving back to Kibitoshin

[h0kuten]

If Vegetto truly had God Chi he should have been able to sense Beerus or Whiss while fighting Majin Buu. In Fukkatsu no F, Piccolo, Kuririn & Tienshin & Gohan all power up to full power so Goku can sense them and IT there. However, if Vegetto had God Chi he would be able to sense an overwhelmingly large Chi, Whiss & Beerus, while he fighting Majin Buu. But he didn't.

[Kamiccolo9]

If Vegetto truly had God Chi he should have been able to sense Beerus or Whiss while fighting Majin Buu. In Fukkatsu no F, Piccolo, Kuririn & Tienshin & Gohan all power up to full power so Goku can sense them and IT there. However, if Vegetto had God Chi he would be able to sense an overwhelmingly large Chi, Whiss & Beerus, while he fighting Majin Buu. But he didn't.

Beerus was asleep, and Goku didn't notice how strong Whis was even when he was a god.

[Darkprince410]

Because Goku threw the idea out when he fought a heavily suppressed Beerus but when he turned into an initial SSJG, before powering up, it was a realm of power he didn't even know existed, when he previously knew that Vegetto level existed. This infers a huge gap. Meaning the two are in completely different dimensions, made from two different sources (one level higher than the other in the cosmic compass of Dragonball Z; ergo, Gods of Destruction & Creation versus Kaioshins), and ultimately one falls short of the other in power.

That's still only due to the limitations of the people fusing, not indicative of any limitations of the Potaras. All Goku's statement indicates is that Super Saiya-jin God exists in a realm of power beyond what Vegetto, made up of a non-god ki empowered Goku or Vegeta, was capable of. Because they themselves were that drastically inferior to Beerus, even a fusion between them would not close that gap. That's all there is to it. Nothing about Goku's statement remotely suggests that Vegetto could never reach or surpass the power of Beerus, that the Potaras wouldn't work if Goku and Vegeta were Ssj God Ssj, or that there was some arbitrary limitation as to how powerful a Potara fusion could be. It just simply meant that, at their current strength at that time, Vegetto would not be in the same realm of power as Beerus.

But Shin and Kibito didn't get much stronger that they could beat Super Buu, now did they? Perhaps their normal Ki got multiplied by each other, and their God ki was only added to one another, before arriving back to Kibitoshin

Remember that Rou Kaioushin indicated the outcome of Vegetto's fusion was greater than it normally would have been because they were rivals.

If Vegetto truly had God Chi he should have been able to sense Beerus or Whiss while fighting Majin Buu. In Fukkatsu no F, Piccolo, Kuririn & Tienshin & Gohan all power up to full power so Goku can sense them and IT there. However, if Vegetto had God Chi he would be able to sense an overwhelmingly large Chi, Whiss & Beerus, while he fighting Majin Buu. But he didn't.

Wait...when did anyone imply that Vegetto was in possession of god ki during the battle with Buu? I don't recall anyone making any kind of suggestion like that.

[Hugo Boss]

The Potara earrings are supposed to be objects to merge gods, but Vegetto is a merged mortal, he didn't have godly ki when he fought Boo. Even Goku and Vegeta don't have exactly godly ki as their signature now, just the powerlevel.

[Truhan]

But Shin and Kibito didn't get much stronger that they could beat Super Buu, now did they? Perhaps their normal Ki got multiplied by each other, and their God ki was only added to one another, before arriving back to Kibitoshin

Remember that Rou Kaioushin indicated the outcome of Vegetto's fusion was greater than it normally would have been because they were rivals.

Which is why it's hard to believe their powers multiplied just like that. I made a few predictions with numbers that I'm not going to post, and Base Vegetto would be outrageously stronger than Buuhan. So much that he wouldn't need to transform. There has to be another way...

[Darkprince410]

But Shin and Kibito didn't get much stronger that they could beat Super Buu, now did they? Perhaps their normal Ki got multiplied by each other, and their God ki was only added to one another, before arriving back to Kibitoshin

Remember that Rou Kaioushin indicated the outcome of Vegetto's fusion was greater than it normally would have been because they were rivals.

Which is why it's hard to believe their powers multiplied just like that. I made a few predictions with numbers that I'm not going to post, and Base Vegetto would be outrageously stronger than Buuhan. So much that he wouldn't need to transform. There has to be another way...

Well, the thing with the Super Exciting Guide is that it doesn't expressly state that it's multiplying Goku's battle power with Vegeta's. It mentions that the Potara fusion is "like multiplication", which doesn't implicitly mean that it is multiplication. Likewise the Goku x Vegeta doesn't necessarily mean multiplication either, as "x" is often used as "cross" to simply indicate a combination (like Tekken X Street Fighter).

[Truhan]

Ah, good to hear. Thanks!

[Kaboom]

From a super-literal in-universe sense, it's also impossible to actually "multiply" battle power together. The numbers that get tossed around are just one particular system of measurement for battle powers, not the actual power itself, and there are different scales.

[h0kuten]

The facts that remain are:

a) Vegetto was stated to be inferior to a heavily suppressed Beerus.
b) Goku transforms into a SSJG.
c) All previous thresh-holds of power, including Vegetto, are surpassed. Surpassed to the point that Goku was having a hard time comprehending that such a level existed.
d) Goku & Beerus then both power up.

Clearly, Vegetto simply isn't capable of achieving that level of power. According to the cosmic hierarchy of DBZ, Beerus & Whiss should always be superior to a Potara fusion, regardless of whose achieving it.

[pacz360]

Couldn't a hypothetical ssjgss vegetto be strong enough to fight beerus ?

[KameRule]

The facts that remain are:

a) Vegetto was stated to be inferior to a heavily suppressed Beerus.
b) Goku transforms into a SSJG.
c) All previous thresh-holds of power, including Vegetto, are surpassed. Surpassed to the point that Goku was having a hard time comprehending that such a level existed.
d) Goku & Beerus then both power up.

Clearly, Vegetto simply isn't capable of achieving that level of power. According to the cosmic hierarchy of DBZ, Beerus & Whiss should always be superior to a Potara fusion, regardless of whose achieving it.

You're talking about this as if Goku becoming stronger than Vegetto means that Vegetto is now weaker than Goku. Vegetto isn't this separate entity that gets stronger on his own, he's simply what we call the resulting fusion of Goku and Vegeta via Potara earrings at any given time. If Goku and Vegeta get stronger, then Vegetto also becomes stronger accordingly. If Goku and Vegeta are both more than half as strong as Beerus once in a certain form, then Vegetto will be stronger than Beerus in that same form. It's pretty straightforward.

[supercat]

Although anything is possible, SSJ4 being stronger than SSG / SSGSS seems extremely unlikely at this point. While it was basically implied that SSJ Vegetto was in the same realm of power as SSJ4 Goku, the former was deemed completely irrelevant in the face of Beerus, who SSG Goku was able to hold his own against. The way I see it, if Goku felt that Vegetto could even come close to fighting with Beerus the way he did as an SSG, he would have seriously considered the route of fusion. Instead, the concept of merging with Vegeta was completely disregarded right from the get-go. I personally find the following numbers to be an accurate evaluation of power when comparing BoG / FnF to GT.

Note: Since a handful of fans do believe that SSJ4 Goku has an edge on his fused counterpart, I put the former above the latter by a generous amount. That said, I don't see anything wrong with the two of them being on par with one another either.

Whis: 15

SSJ4 Gogeta: 12 - 13 (He was unable to obliterate Omega Shenron, despite hitting him with a Big Bang Kamehameha, while Whis was able to render Beerus unconscious with an effortless chop)

Beerus: 10

Omega Shenron: 8 - 8.5 (Although he was clearly above the SSJ4 duo, they were still able to endure quite a few of his attacks)

Golden Frieza: 8

SSGSS Goku / Vegeta: 7 - 7.5

SSG Goku (BoG): 6

Base Goku (FnF): 4.5 - 5

Super 17 (energy absorbed) : 5.5

Final Form Frieza (FnF): 4

SSJ4 Goku: 4.5 (but could very well be on the same level as SSJ Vegetto)

SSJ Vegetto (Buu arc): 2 - 2.5

[Alondite]

ssj4 is a potential unlock, so it will always be the strongest possible form that a saiyan can utilize.

GT gokus saiyan god form would be weaker than ssj4 since ssj4 unleashed all of the dormant power of his godly body.

This seems like a ridiculous thing to say.

SS4 and Super Vegeto were compared directly. Of course, the perhaps statement renders it impossible to tell which is stronger of the two, but the fact is that the two must be close enough to compare, or there'd have been no point in doing so at all.

We also know that SSG Goku is orders of magnitude stronger than Super Vegeto, which means the same goes for SS4.

Basically, we know that

SSG >>>>>>>> SS Vegeto
And
SS Vegeto >=< SS4

So it must be true that
SSG >>>>>>>> SS4

[Darkprince410]

The facts that remain are:

a) Vegetto was stated to be inferior to a heavily suppressed Beerus.
b) Goku transforms into a SSJG.
c) All previous thresh-holds of power, including Vegetto, are surpassed. Surpassed to the point that Goku was having a hard time comprehending that such a level existed.
d) Goku & Beerus then both power up.

Clearly, Vegetto simply isn't capable of achieving that level of power. According to the cosmic hierarchy of DBZ, Beerus & Whiss should always be superior to a Potara fusion, regardless of whose achieving it.

All your facts point toward is that, before they absorbed the power of Super Saiya-jin God, Goku and Vegeta, fused as Vegetto, couldn't beat Beerus. Absolutely none of those facts say that a Potara fusion between them would always be inferior to Beerus or Whis. In fact, given that the Kaioushin are equal to Beerus in terms of the cosmic hierarchy, a Potara fusion, between the right people, should easily be able to match them.

In essence, it's like this. The situation would be like if Goku and Vegeta somehow had Potara earrings way back during the Saiya-jin Saga. Given their low battle powers, a fusion between them would stand absolutely no chance against Gohan Buu's strength, but does that mean that a Potara fusion with them would always be weaker than Buu? No. Simply that, at the strength they were at, a fusion between them wouldn't be able to beat Buu.

It's the exact same case here. Nothing says or even remotely suggests that Goku and Vegeta, fused into Vegetto, could never reach or surpass Beerus's strength (especially once they reach Ssj God Ssj), just that, at the strength they were at, a fusion between them wouldn't work.

[VintageSaiyan]

If Vegetto truly had God Chi he should have been able to sense Beerus or Whiss while fighting Majin Buu. In Fukkatsu no F, Piccolo, Kuririn & Tienshin & Gohan all power up to full power so Goku can sense them and IT there. However, if Vegetto had God Chi he would be able to sense an overwhelmingly large Chi, Whiss & Beerus, while he fighting Majin Buu. But he didn't.

You do realize Vegito is the creation of 2 people right? Goku and Vegeta? Meaning if Goku and Vegeta were to fuse in RoF, I'm pretty sure this "God chi" you keep talking about wouldn't be a problem - since well, Vegito IS Goku and Vegita.

[h0kuten]

In all scenarios where a fusion is born we learn that that particular fusion is a new being, and not the combined beings of both warriors, meaning the God Chi wouldn't be passed down. They need to perform the ritual again, which is impossible because there is not enough Saiyans - but as the statement below will prove, there appears to be a difference between Gods ( of creation & destruction & the Kaioshins) and the fused counter-part of Vegetto.

Also there is this:

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P13.1
Context: Boo surrounds himself in smoke, but Vegetto can still beat up on him anyways
Vegetto:"The important thing is to grasp ki strength and movement. You track me with your eyes so you can't follow my movements."

Which literally proves that Vegetto has normal Chi and NOT God Chi. If Super Buu can sense him (like everyone else can sense the Majins), than that proves that Vegetto does not have God Chi and just because the Kaioshins are within the same tier of importance in the Universe (actually, doubtful), does not mean they share the same components as the other gods, namely the new God Chi. Even if you argue that the Kaioshins can sense Beerus and vice versa, it does not prove that the Potara earrings pass down the God Chi to the fused warriors; the statement above explicitly debunks that.

[Doctor.]

So Goku's Godly Ki + Vegeta's Godly Ki produces normal Ki somehow? Even though both can go SSGSS at will, a Potara fusion of both presumably can't? You're making zero sense. If Kibitoshin and Elder Kaioshin have Godly Ki, then why wouldn't Vegetto have it? He already underwent the ritual the moment both Goku and Vegeta did.

[Darkprince410]

In all scenarios where a fusion is born we learn that that particular fusion is a new being, and not the combined beings of both warriors, meaning the God Chi wouldn't be passed down. They need to perform the ritual again, which is impossible because there is not enough Saiyans - but as the statement below will prove, there appears to be a difference between Gods ( of creation & destruction & the Kaioshins) and the fused counter-part of Vegetto.

We see though that Rou Kaioushin and Kibitoshin possess abilities that only one of their constituent beings possessed, and likewise we see that Vegetto retains the memories of Goku and Vegeta (as evidenced by him pointing out that the Super Ghosts was Gotenks' move). They are a combination of the two beings that fused, and even though a new personality may form, they still possess the traits of those that became them. As such, a fusion of Goku and Vegeta, with god ki, would in all likelihood result in Vegetto also having it.

Also there is this:

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P13.1
Context: Boo surrounds himself in smoke, but Vegetto can still beat up on him anyways
Vegetto:"The important thing is to grasp ki strength and movement. You track me with your eyes so you can't follow my movements."

Which literally proves that Vegetto has normal Chi and NOT God Chi. If Super Buu can sense him (like everyone else can sense the Majins), than that proves that Vegetto does not have God Chi and just because the Kaioshins are within the same tier of importance in the Universe (actually, doubtful), does not mean they share the same components as the other gods, namely the new God Chi. Even if you argue that the Kaioshins can sense Beerus and vice versa, it does not prove that the Potara earrings pass down the God Chi to the fused warriors; the statement above explicitly debunks that.

How is that relevant at all? No one is remotely saying or even suggesting that Vegetto had god ki at that time, as neither Goku or Vegeta had god ki at the time, nor does that line remotely debunk that Potara earrings pass down god ki.

If you're trying to say or suggest that we're believing that the Potara earrings themselves are granting Vegetto god ki, then you're mistaken, because no one's said anything like that. All any of us have been saying is that there's nothing suggesting that Vegetto wouldn't have god ki if Goku and Vegeta fused while they had god ki.

As for them being of the same tier of importance, it was established in Super that they were of the same tier hierarchy wise as the Hakaishin.

[h0kuten]

So Goku's Godly Ki + Vegeta's Godly Ki produces normal Ki somehow? Even though both can go SSGSS at will, a Potara fusion of both presumably can't? You're making zero sense. If Kibitoshin and Elder Kaioshin have Godly Ki, then why wouldn't Vegetto have it? He already underwent the ritual the moment both Goku and Vegeta did.

So why didn't they when Beerus threatened to kill them and the Earth on multiple occasions?