Are GT characters really stronger the BoG/FnF characters?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Further evidence that Goku's a gambler and makes poor decisions.

Or, further evidence that Vegetto doesn't stand a chance against Beerus, and anything they were to try would have been useless.

Your position is that he knows them individually and has some sort of a gauge about what they'd be, mine is there's no way to know this for sure, especially seeing he never experienced it. I don't see where there is to go from here.

If he can have an idea of SS Gotenks' power, he should be able to have an idea of SS3 Vegetto's power as well. However, SSG was far beyond that, since Goku never even imagined such power to exist.

Because he's a petty, inconsistent gambler.

Could you explain? Give examples?

[Low Tone G]

But do you realize the magnitude that Goku is basing his guess regarding Vegetto's power?

If I understand correctly, it'd be what he experienced?

So having that Goku couldn't rely himself on lucky minor details that would help him to beat Beerus as Vegetto, I think he should be right about not using him.

It'd be smarter to have made Vegetto a god, which was certainly a possibility nobody thought of (certainly not Goku). Not fusing is far less efficient than fusing, so I don't think he's right even if you consider him reliable.

Exactly. That would have been the perfect choice, but Goku wasn't a God yet, so to believe that a God Vegetto is even possible would be a guess without any base.

And again, Goku is not perfectly right, so his guessing are slightly inaccurate as you are saying, so being that he can have minor mistakes, that magnitude of Vegetto's power increase didn't convince him to use him, even if he could have been slightly inaccurate with Vegetto's maximums. So he was not basing on little lucky turns of events to create Vegetto, so calling him totally reckless, it isn't entirely correct.

And finally, Goku got the information that a Super Saiyan God exists. He made up a plan to summon Shenlon to know more about him. And you seem to forget that Goku didn't want at first to become a God himself, but rather to wish for him to be brought on Earth by Shenlon's power. So if Goku didn't use Vegetto, because he wasn't enough, then he could have the other choice to give to Beerus what he wanted, the Super Saiyan God, and trust him to save that Earth instead of him. But when it turned out that the Super Saiyan God is temporary being, then he decided to be become one himself.

[Sayo-chan]

Or, further evidence that Vegetto doesn't stand a chance against Beerus, and anything they were to try would have been useless.

No, because even if we agree he's reliable, Goku has no idea about being a god. It could be nonexistent for all he knows, which would put them in a worse position if it were so. It could've also been substantially weaker. He's taking a gamble. Furthermore, Vegetto would make a superior god over Goku.

If he can have an idea of SS Gotenks' power, he should be able to have an idea of SS3 Vegetto's power as well. However, SSG was far beyond that, since Goku never even imagined such power to exist.

I already stated why I disagree with this. He knew the dance fusion a lot better, fundamentally even. There's little to nothing to suggest he knows Vegetto's limitations. For all we, as well as Goku know, Vegetto's full power+SSJ3 is beyond his imagination as well. There's simply not enough information beyond Goku's opinion, which I have stated I don't trust.

Could you explain? Give examples?

What I stated earlier:
The one where they didn't kill the Artificial Humans before they were a thing? The one where he endangered everyone by not coming to Earth instantly to take care of Freeza. The one where he had the stupid idea of making the kids Earth's protectors. The one where he almost got Gohan killed by Cell and also gave him a Senzu, granted it did end up working in his favor, but it almost allowed Cell complete victory. The list goes on.

Exactly. That would have been the perfect choice, but Goku wasn't a God yet, so to believe that a God Vegetto is even possible would be a guess without any base.

And again, Goku is not perfectly right, so his guessing are slightly inaccurate as you are saying, so being that he can have minor mistakes, that magnitude of Vegetto's power increase didn't convince him to use him, even if he could have been slightly inaccurate with Vegetto's maximums. So he was not basing on little lucky turns of events to create Vegetto, so calling him totally reckless, it isn't entirely correct.

It's a better guess than what he was operating on though. He's stronger with it, stronger without it, as Vegetto. I wonder if Vegetto could potara fuse with Gohan... I don't see why not. Just fuse all the strongest characters and have them separate inside Boo after it's all said and done. Somehow I feel like that idea has to have flaws.

[Low Tone G]

Let's reproduce the whole story. Goku got the information that a Super Saiyan God exists. He made up a plan to summon Shenlon to know more about him. And you seem to forget that Goku didn't want at first to become a God himself, but rather to wish for him to be brought on Earth by Shenlon's power. So if Goku didn't use Vegetto, because he wasn't enough, then he could have the other choice to give to Beerus what he wanted, the Super Saiyan God, and trust him to save the Earth instead of him. But when it turned out that the Super Saiyan God is temporary being, then he did do the decision to be become one himself. He was confused on King Kai's planet to train or rather do something else.

[Sayo-chan]

I didn't forget that, I just wrote it off as Goku make another risky decision. Becoming Vegetto would still be the best decision all around. Vegetto > Goku. God Vegetto > God Goku. I'm still curious if that sort of "infinite fusion" would work, because that would certainly generate enough power to kill Beerus.

[Low Tone G]

I didn't forget that, I just wrote it off as Goku make another risky decision. Becoming Vegetto would still be the best decision all around. Vegetto > Goku. God Vegetto > God Goku. I'm still curious if that sort of "infinite fusion" would work, because that would certainly generate enough power to kill Beerus.

All depends on how do you trust Goku... If Goku was right about Vegetto to be excluded, then to search for the Super Saiyan God is the best possible choice. Being that you seem to not trust him, you are still believing that Vegetto could have still worked. God Vegetto wasn't even a possibility, because the ritual would also need 6 Saiyans and even with Pan, they would be only 5. So if Vegeta didn't know where Tarble was, then Vegetto wouldn't know it either. So if Goku's more or less accurate guess would have been correct and Vegetto would be too weak to fight Beerus, then Vegetto would have been a waste, and Beerus might have destroyed the Earth with lack a challenge.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

It's completely wrong to say vegito could be even near the power of end of z vegeta and or goku. he's get 1 hit even if he had kaiokenx10 on. You seriously nerf goku and I can't understand why.

Are you taking BoG/FnF/Super into account? Because GT doesn't.

GT doesn't but it takes end of Z into account. And goku was MUCH stronger in end of Z then BOG,even stronger then whis at 100%. The rate of which Goku's power grows s support enough that in GT's timeline where there was no Beerus,the power of SSjgod would lose to base end of Z goku.
I cant see whis as more then 5 ssj3 vegitos as beerus was hurt by a already tired from training and battle MID buu saga ssj2 vegeta. End of Z goku is like 400x the strength of ssj3 BOG vegito in his base form...SURPRESSED! Goku gets over 15x stronger in 6 days easily,that's a fact in both the manga canon and the anime canon. BOG just nerfed Goku to keep beerus tough,but don't think him flicking ssj3 Goku means he's 1,000 stronger then him, This is Dragonball,if beerus had a power level of 20 and king cold's final form was 21 then beerus would be owned as much as ssj3 Goku was in BOG. Stupid yes,but that's how it goes.

[Sayo-chan]

I didn't forget that, I just wrote it off as Goku make another risky decision. Becoming Vegetto would still be the best decision all around. Vegetto > Goku. God Vegetto > God Goku. I'm still curious if that sort of "infinite fusion" would work, because that would certainly generate enough power to kill Beerus.

All depends on how do you trust Goku... If Goku was right about Vegetto to be excluded, then to search for the Super Saiyan God is the best possible choice. Being that you seem to not trust him, you are still believing that Vegetto could have still worked. God Vegetto wasn't even a possibility, because the ritual would also need 6 Saiyans and even with Pan, they would be only 5. So if Vegeta didn't know where Tarble was, then Vegetto wouldn't know it either. So if Goku's more or less accurate guess would have been correct and Vegetto would be too weak to fight Beerus, then Vegetto would have been a waste, and Beerus might have destroyed the Earth with lack a challenge.

I was wondering when someone would bring that up. I briefly mentioned earlier they could easily wish for another Saiyan in conjunction with the information. Goku didn't attempt to do so, the thought likely never crossed his mind, let alone to manipulate Beerus's emotions if by some means Shenlong wouldn't listen to him and still leave. God Vegetto could have easily been pulled off. It wasn't because Toei has a Goku hardon nowadays.

[Low Tone G]

I didn't forget that, I just wrote it off as Goku make another risky decision. Becoming Vegetto would still be the best decision all around. Vegetto > Goku. God Vegetto > God Goku. I'm still curious if that sort of "infinite fusion" would work, because that would certainly generate enough power to kill Beerus.

All depends on how do you trust Goku... If Goku was right about Vegetto to be excluded, then to search for the Super Saiyan God is the best possible choice. Being that you seem to not trust him, you are still believing that Vegetto could have still worked. God Vegetto wasn't even a possibility, because the ritual would also need 6 Saiyans and even with Pan, they would be only 5. So if Vegeta didn't know where Tarble was, then Vegetto wouldn't know it either. So if Goku's more or less accurate guess would have been correct and Vegetto would be too weak to fight Beerus, then Vegetto would have been a waste, and Beerus might have destroyed the Earth with lack a challenge.

I was wondering when someone would bring that up. I briefly mentioned earlier they could easily wish for another Saiyan in conjunction with the information. Goku didn't attempt to do so, the thought likely never crossed his mind, let alone to manipulate Beerus's emotions if by some means Shenlong wouldn't listen to him and still leave. God Vegetto could have easily been pulled off. It wasn't because Toei has a Goku hardon nowadays.

Like how?

[Sayo-chan]

Like how?

I said how in the same post.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, because even if we agree he's reliable, Goku has no idea about being a god. It could be nonexistent for all he knows, which would put them in a worse position if it were so. It could've also been substantially weaker. He's taking a gamble. Furthermore, Vegetto would make a superior god over Goku.

It was nearly impossible for them to create SSG Vegetto at that point. Also, nothing suggests that Goku is taking a gamble by not becoming Vegetto. It's the opposite, Vegetto isn't even an option.

I already stated why I disagree with this. He knew the dance fusion a lot better, fundamentally even. There's little to nothing to suggest he knows Vegetto's limitations. For all we, as well as Goku know, Vegetto's full power+SSJ3 is beyond his imagination as well. There's simply not enough information beyond Goku's opinion, which I have stated I don't trust.

Except he had a whole fight as Super Vegetto? Nothing suggests that Super Vegetto wasn't at full power. With Fusion, he had only seen others doing it. How did he have more experience with Fusion, which he never used, compared to the Potara, which he used?

What I stated earlier:
The one where they didn't kill the Artificial Humans before they were a thing? The one where he endangered everyone by not coming to Earth instantly to take care of Freeza. The one where he had the stupid idea of making the kids Earth's protectors. The one where he almost got Gohan killed by Cell and also gave him a Senzu, granted it did end up working in his favor, but it almost allowed Cell complete victory. The list goes on.

Could you continue the list, because these have nothing to do with Goku estimating SS3 Vegetto's power.

[KentalSSJ6]

About the whole Vegetto going/not going SSJ3 thing.

We have Goten and Trunks, both never even attaining SSJ2, capable of using SSJ3 as Gotenks.

Meanwhile, Goku has SSJ3 on his own and Vegeta has SSJ2. If the brats were capable of using SSJ3 in a fusion why cant their dads? SSJ3 Vegetto is entirely possible.

[Sayo-chan]

It was nearly impossible for them to create SSG Vegetto at that point. Also, nothing suggests that Goku is taking a gamble by not becoming Vegetto. It's the opposite, Vegetto isn't even an option.

I disagree completely. I see him as an easy option. I explained this earlier.

Except he had a whole fight as Super Vegetto? Nothing suggests that Super Vegetto wasn't at full power. With Fusion, he had only seen others doing it. How did he have more experience with Fusion, which he never used, compared to the Potara, which he used?

Nothing suggests he was. He wasn't taking Boohan seriously at all. We're going in circles, like I stated earlier. We're repeating the exact same things in different phrases. He doesn't know the fundamentals of of the earrings like he does with the dance, I see no evidence to suggest he knows Vegetto's limitations.

Could you continue the list, because these have nothing to do with Goku estimating SS3 Vegetto's power.

You wanted to know why I called him inconsistent, a gambler. That's why. He makes poor decisions. I believe this to be one of them. He didn't outright estimate SSJ3 Vegetto's power, that's your assumption, because there's nothing to suggest he was. I'm in favor of him being capable, relatively easily, but not without a little practice, which he clearly wouldn't have time for.

[Low Tone G]

It was nearly impossible for them to create SSG Vegetto at that point. Also, nothing suggests that Goku is taking a gamble by not becoming Vegetto. It's the opposite, Vegetto isn't even an option.

I disagree completely. I see him as an easy option. I explained this earlier.

Except he had a whole fight as Super Vegetto? Nothing suggests that Super Vegetto wasn't at full power. With Fusion, he had only seen others doing it. How did he have more experience with Fusion, which he never used, compared to the Potara, which he used?

Nothing suggests he was. He wasn't taking Boohan seriously at all. We're going in circles, like I stated earlier. We're repeating the exact same things in different phrases. He doesn't know the fundamentals of of the earrings like he does with the dance, I see no evidence to suggest he knows Vegetto's limitations.

Could you continue the list, because these have nothing to do with Goku estimating SS3 Vegetto's power.

You wanted to know why I called him inconsistent, a gambler. That's why. He makes poor decisions. I believe this to be one of them. He didn't outright estimate SSJ3 Vegetto's power, that's your assumption, because there's nothing to suggest he was. I'm in favor of him being capable, relatively easily, but not without a little practice, which he clearly wouldn't have time for.

If you also admit that Goku did not have too much time for practicing as Vegetto why do you think that Beerus would have allowed him to find Tarble, who besides Pan will be the one who will assist create a God Vegetto? Beerus wasn't featured to be a patient person.

God Vegetto was impossible that time:

SSJ3 Goku was defeated with too much ease > He automatically discarded the idea of a fusion with Vegeta > The Saiyan God ritual needs 6 righteous Saiyans > Pan was needed > Goku could become a God > Goku could convince Beerus to not blow up the Earth because he was prodigy who was able to absorb the God power > Beerus finds Goku interesting

But if Goku would have decided to create Vegetto first > Beerus would have lost his patience > he would blow up the Earth with lack of challenge.

[Sayo-chan]

If you also admit that Goku did not have too much time for practicing as Vegetto why do you think that Beerus would have allowed him to find Tarble, who besides Pan will be the one who will assist create a God Vegetto? Beerus wasn't featured to be a patient person.

Forcing Shenlong to bring Tarble or any other Saiyan alive (because plot) allows for this easily.

God Vegetto was impossible that time:

SSJ3 Goku was defeated with too much ease > He automatically discarded the idea of a fusion with Vegeta > The Saiyan God ritual needs 6 righteous Saiyans > Pan was needed > Goku could become a God > Goku could convince Beerus to not blow up the Earth because he was prodigy who was able to absorb the God power > Beerus finds Goku interesting

If they wish for another Saiyan, there's no issue. Hell, the number 6 is arbitrary. If they wanted Vegetto to be there and didn't want to use Shenlong, they'd just make it 5, but that's neither here nor there. I'd also like to point out how creepy and stupid it was for Pan to be a part of it.

But if Goku would have decided to create Vegetto first > Beerus would have lost his patience > he would blow up the Earth with lack of challenge.

I don't see how that follows.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You wanted to know why I called him inconsistent, a gambler. That's why. He makes poor decisions. I believe this to be one of them. He didn't outright estimate SSJ3 Vegetto's power, that's your assumption, because there's nothing to suggest he was. I'm in favor of him being capable, relatively easily, but not without a little practice, which he clearly wouldn't have time for.

I don't understand how Vegetto wouldn't know his own power when he existed for a whole fight, and I don't see how it makes sense for Goku to disregard Vegetto without taking SS3 into account. Basically, you are suggesting this:

"To fight him, I'll have to merge with Vegeta... No, even that probably won't be enough. Though, I don't even know how strong we were as Vegetto, since I never had a real fight, even though I had a fight against a weakling that made me go Super Saiyan... Maybe I should try to go beyond Super Saiyana after merging with Vegeta... Nah, it never happened before, so I can't tell how strong I'll become, even though I can do this on my own, and I have accurately predicted how strong a Super Saiyan Fusion would be in the past."

Goku should know how strong Vegetto was (nothing indicates that Vegetto was supressed for his whole existence, or at all), and he knows the power SS2/3 give, since he himself has transformed countless times. He completely disregards him, so anything Vegetto would be able to do should be useless against Beerus.

As for SSG Vegetto, they should have one more Saiyan around to make him, which they didn't. They could say that to Shenlong, but he was already gone when they noticed that there were only 5 Saiyans around, until Videl revealed she was pregnant. But even if they could create him, Goku & Vegeta wouldn't agree to merge, and Goku would prefer to try it himself first.

And yes, he is a gambler, but how does this make him inconsistent?

[Sayo-chan]

I don't understand how Vegetto wouldn't know his own power when he existed for a whole fight, and I don't see how it makes sense for Goku to disregard Vegetto without taking SS3 into account. Basically, you are suggesting this:

I don't see how a "whole fight" is even an argument. Fights vary in length. His fight wasn't very long, and he was hardly applying himself. Because again, there's nothing to imply he did.

"To fight him, I'll have to merge with Vegeta... No, even that probably won't be enough. Though, I don't even know how strong we were as Vegetto, since I never had a real fight, even though I had a fight against a weakling that made me go Super Saiyan... Maybe I should try to go beyond Super Saiyana after merging with Vegeta... Nah, it never happened before, so I can't tell how strong I'll become, even though I can do this on my own, and I have accurately predicted how strong a Super Saiyan Fusion would be in the past."

I'm not saying that at all. I don't even think Goku could parse that sort of information that quickly. He's just making guesses, guesses I don't trust. There's absolutely nothing beneficial about him being himself, which is inherently weaker than Vegetto.

Goku should know how strong Vegetto was (nothing indicates that Vegetto was supressed for his whole existence, or at all), and he knows the power SS2/3 give, since he himself has transformed countless times. He completely disregards him, so anything Vegetto would be able to do should be useless against Beerus.

Nothing at all suggests he was going all out either. The evidence points towards he was playing around, otherwise he'd have killed Boohan. I disagree, again, and I'm repeating myself, over and over. I see nothing to say Vegetto knows his own limitations. I see nothing to suggest Goku does.

As for SSG Vegetto, they should have one more Saiyan around to make him, which they didn't. They could say that to Shenlong, but he was already gone when they noticed that there were only 5 Saiyans around, until Videl revealed she was pregnant. But even if they could create him, Goku & Vegeta wouldn't agree to merge, and Goku would prefer to try it himself first.

Whether Goku would want to try it himself first is irrelevant to the discussion. This is about what the better idea would be at this point. Shenlong was scared shitless of Beerus, if Vegetto was set on becoming a god, there's no doubt he could manipulate Beerus into intimidating Shenlong to allow a wish, or y'know, the entire dialogue between them and Shenlong would be different. There's tons of variables to account for here, nothing is set in stone.

And yes, he is a gambler, but how does this make him inconsistent?

Because his decisions are inconsistent based on his gambles.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Just because Vegetto never fought seriously doesn't mean that he doesn't know his full power. There is no evidence that support this, and it doesn't make sense to me. I also don't see how Goku is inconsistent just because he takes gambles for his own selfish reasons or for the greater good of his planet. So, let's just agree that we disagree, since both of us have already said what we had to say.

[Sayo-chan]

So, let's just agree that we disagree, since both of us have already said what we had to say.

I hinted at this earlier. Sounds fine by me.

[Low Tone G]

So, let's just agree that we disagree, since both of us have already said what we had to say.

I hinted at this earlier. Sounds fine by me.

Fine! Now I'm realizing that the debate didn't make sense just because Goku didn't really know how strong(so how big Ki should he have) should Vegetto be to fight Beerus, but rather he had to guess some feats for Vegetto to achieve to be in the same league with Beerus, just because he couldn't sense Beerus's power level.