Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
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DBZGTKOSDH
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 12401
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 pm
- Location: Greece
Post
by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:19 pm
irreality wrote:DBZGTKOSDH wrote:SS2 Vegeta can't have an even fight with SS3 Goku in Boo arc, because he isn't strong enough. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.
But it never happened! I'd grant you "not even" but that doesn't translate into "not interesting", "not contentious", "not potentially exciting or could have an unexpected ending". How can it be a fact if it is not in the manga? What are the circumstances of the fight? Are they both fighting all out? Are Ki attacks not allowed? Can Vegeta stall for time? How much time do they have before Goku goes to heaven (if dead) or until his power is just depleted in one go (if alive)? All these are factors in the fight. No fight is just "oh, they are both on a completely even playing field with absolutely no modifiers."
You misunderstood. I didn't say SS2 Vegeta can't beat SS3 Goku, I said they can't fight evenly. Which is a fact, since SS3 Goku was about as strong as Pure Boo & could fight evenly against him, but SS2 Vegeta couldn't in the least. If we take the guidebooks into account, SS3 Goku is 4 times stronger than SS2 Vegeta. Based on the power differences from Saiyan/Freeza arcs, when we had numbers, a x4 difference is extremely enormous. Look at how Goku played with Jheese, and that was an around x2 difference at most in their powers. Maybe what you mentioned is possible to determine the winner, but this isn't what I'm talking about.
This is the stuff I don't find interesting about power level discussions -- saying: X will beat Y, it is a fact (even if we have never seen it on screen).
I'd rather say: Well, Goku is much stronger in SSJ3 than Vegeta SSJ2 in the Buu arc (that is indeed a fact). But, there are downsides to SSJ3. Could Vegeta exploit those to have a chance at beating Goku? Goku is likely not as invested in the fight as Vegeta might be, too. Could that affect their fighting? Can Vegeta distract him somehow in the fight or vice versa? Is SSJ3 relatively new for Goku and maybe he hasn't mastered the form? etc. When the discussions lead into something *more* about the series, then I think it is interesting.
Well, these are the kind of posts I try to make in the VS thread, when I'm in the mood to get in there, because it's really fun imagining the fight like this. And unfortunately, most guys don't post like that in that thread.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Zephyr
- I Live Here
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by Zephyr » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:23 am
Caulifor wrote:Zephyr wrote:There are plenty of in-universe explanations that you've left out. For instance, the one I personally adhere to is a mixture of Shisami got stronger (Freeza's strength likely makes him an incredible training partner), Gohan jumped in when he didn't need to (guy's already rusty when it comes to fighting in plenty of other ways), and Piccolo was mentally exhausted/unfocused after having to fight in a manner he generally doesn't (that is, essentially trying to stomp on ants without killing them). That's just one of many ways to explain it however, and it may not even be the most logical. My point here is that while yes, the series is about fighting, there is more to fighting than just power. You can be as powerful as you want, and yet still lack any and all skills to be able to use that power in any sort of pragmatic fashion on the battlefield.
You see, that's something I don't get sometimes. All the explanations you listed make no sense for me, because the difference between Piccolo and someone like Shisami (who's supposed to be around Zarbon's power) is
so huge that no amount of fatigue would balance the two. And, well, the training with Freeza
might make sense within the logic that Freeza himself could become millions of times stronger in 4 months, but that one is also a power boost that compeltely breaks consistency for me. It doesn't matter that the movie "justifies" it, the justification is horrible and lazy, screaming "just roll with it because we wanted to bring this popular villain back".
I neglected to emphasize Piccolo's insistence that he was doing just fine, after Gohan butted in. So to clarify, I don't think they were actually balanced, but rather Shisami got a couple of lucky hits in (due to a combination of the two factors) and Gohan jumped the gun. It's fine if that still doesn't do it for you though.
