Cell Saga Vegeta

[ABED]

That's like saying that every soldier and scientist in nazy Germany was automatically evil.

Gero is creating those cyborgs with the express purpose of murdering Goku.

[rereboy]

That's like saying that every soldier and scientist in nazy Germany was automatically evil.

Gero is creating those cyborgs with the express purpose of murdering Goku.

I was commenting on the fact that he was implied to not be innocent simply for having worked for the RR army. And, at the time of Trunks' warning, they simply have no idea at what stage Gero was supposed to be at. For all they know, he might not even have begun building his androids. They only find out more details later. Not to mention that it's not exactly wrong to build robots, its how they are used that's the problem and he hadn't used them.

[ekrolo2]

A very good point but once again, they can easily get definitive facts on what Gero's background and motivation is just by asking Shenron. Goku just demonstrates that he can teleport anywhere so really, the character aren't even going to lose any significant amount of time gathering the Dragon Balls and making sure they know what kind of guy Gero is, thereby letting them make a properly informed decision on their next move.

If they just wanted to stop Gero they would just found out where he was (with dragon balls) and pay him a visit, destroying his illegal lab and handing him over to the police, while keeping an eye on him in the future. No moral dilemma necessary since they wouldn't be killing or even harming anyone and if there was enough for him to be arrested, he would be arrested, and even if he wasn't, they would be keeping an eye on him.

The real question is why Trunks himself doesn't insist on finding Gero and his lab ahead of time since he's the least likely to leave things to chance.

That's an excellent point! Can't believe I didn't even think of them doing that, feel like such a dumbass now lol. As for why Trunks didn't do that is simple: because the plot needs him to be a dumbass. Seriously, if the whole time travel angle got dropped completely this arc would feel a LOT less broken than it already is at the very start.

[LuckyCat]

I've never seen how what Vegeta did with Freeza is at all comparable to what he did with Cell. Freeza could transform whenever he wanted. Unless first-form Freeza was an opponent the heroes could just one-shot (which he wasn't), there was no point in fighting him in that form. It would have been a waste of time. Vegeta standing up to Freeza was both pragmatic and psychological (show him we're not afraid). It didn't quite work out, but it was a reasonable course of action. Letting Cell transform and even attacking his allies to ensure it happened was foolhardy, arrogant, and mutinous. At that point, the rest of the cast should have strapped him to a rocket and fired him into the sun because he was doing more harm than good.

Except Vegeta knew he couldn't defeat Freeza (that's why he wanted immortality, right?). On the other hand, letting Cell transform is more comparable to his fight with Zarbon. He knew he'd see some increase in power from his opponent's transformation, but he thought he could still win.

[ABED]

Not to mention that it's not exactly wrong to build robots, its how they are used that's the problem and he hadn't used them.

It's wrong to build them to kill people. He's building sentient weapons. And I don't think Goku or the others would've killed him had they decided to stop him preemtively.

I've never seen how what Vegeta did with Freeza is at all comparable to what he did with Cell.

Vegeta egged Freeza into transforming. I don't see how that isn't the same thing he did with Cell. At least with Cell, Vegeta was in fact stronger than 2nd form Cell.

[rereboy]

Not to mention that it's not exactly wrong to build robots, its how they are used that's the problem and he hadn't used them.

It's wrong to build them to kill people. He's building sentient weapons. And I don't think Goku or the others would've killed him had they decided to stop him preemtively.

Like I said, "its how they are used that's the problem". If they really wanted to stop Gero from possibly using them for evil deeds, I already gave the solution in the previous page, which would stop Gero without anyone being harmed or being killed, thus not existing any real moral dilemma. I fail to see what and why you are arguing.

[ABED]

Arguing seems like a strong word. I agree there never was a moral dilemma, not simple for the reasons mentioned but also my point, our heroes don't just go around killing people without sufficient provocation, which usually means heat of the battle.

What i disagree with you on is that Gero was definitely immoral for having worked for the Red Ribbon Army. He wasn't forced to against his will. One can easily surmise that by the fact that he continued building killer robots.

[irreality]

Right, the RR army is not an army in the sense of a country using conscription or engaging in total war -- where some people are there against their will or doing civilian tasks. It is more of a gang/terrorist group.

[ABED]

Right, the RR army is not an army in the sense of a country using conscription or engaging in total war -- where some people are there against their will or doing civilian tasks. It is more of a gang/terrorist group.

Correct, though the RRA could've threatened Gero or someone he cared for in order to force compliance, kind of like Dr. Frappe's backstory if i remember correctly, but there's no evidence of this. On the contrary, all evidence shows that Gero was fully complicit in the Red Ribbon Army's schemes, otherwise why would he hold a grudge for nearly two decades?

[fadeddreams5]

I'm pretty sure Toriyama stated in an interview that Gero was in fact a co-founder or leader of the RRA.

[rereboy]

What i disagree with you on is that Gero was definitely immoral for having worked for the Red Ribbon Army. He wasn't forced to against his will. One can easily surmise that by the fact that he continued building killer robots.

Imagine this:

Dr. Gero's son joins the RR army because he believes in their goals. His son tells them about his father's skills and they force him to work for them. He has no interest in their goals but he has no real choice. Then the RR army is defeated and his son dies along with the base. Dr. Gero, who loved his son, becomes mad with grief and can only think about hate and revenge. Eventually he ends up adopting the goals of the RR army because that's what his son wanted and he begins building androids, targeting Goku and then the world.

(This hypothetical scenario is even partly supported by Toriyama, who said recently that Dr. Gero based #16 partly on his son, who died with the RR army.)

In short, you are just assuming without any real info pointing towards that conclusion... Other scenarios could have just as easily have happened. And the gang, including Trunks, has no idea about any of that. Such an assumption, like I said, is similar to assuming that a soldier or a scientist in nazy germany is evil or similar.

Right, the RR army is not an army in the sense of a country using conscription or engaging in total war -- where some people are there against their will or doing civilian tasks. It is more of a gang/terrorist group.

You think that all members of gang/terrorist groups are there just because they want to? A great amount of them are there because its either join them or die/suffer/lose everything. In truth, they tend to be more brutal in forcing people to join them than actual countries with mandatory military service.

[ABED]

What i disagree with you on is that Gero was definitely immoral for having worked for the Red Ribbon Army. He wasn't forced to against his will. One can easily surmise that by the fact that he continued building killer robots.

Imagine this:

Dr. Gero's son joins the RR army because he believes in their goals. His son tells them about his father's skills and they force him to work for them. He has no interest in their goals but he has no real choice. Then the RR army is defeated and his son dies along with the base. Dr. Gero, who loved his son, becomes mad with grief and can only think about hate and revenge. Eventually he ends up adopting the goals of the RR army because that's what his son wanted and he begins building androids, targeting Goku and then the world.

(This hypothetical scenario is even partly supported by Toriyama, who said recently that Dr. Gero based #16 partly on his son, who died with the RR army.)

In short, you are just assuming without any real info pointing towards that conclusion... Other scenarios could have just as easily have happened. And the gang, including Trunks, has no idea about any of that. Such an assumption, like I said, is similar to assuming that a soldier or a scientist in nazy germany is evil or similar.

Right, the RR army is not an army in the sense of a country using conscription or engaging in total war -- where some people are there against their will or doing civilian tasks. It is more of a gang/terrorist group.

You think that all members of gang/terrorist groups are there just because they want to? A great amount of them are there because its either join them or die/suffer/lose everything. In truth, they tend to be more brutal in forcing people to join them than actual countries with mandatory military service.

That still would make him evil. Goku had every right to go after the Red Ribbon Army and defend himself in the process. Gero's sob story doesn't justify building murder bots.

While Toriyama's idea about 16 is interesting, it's not at all in the show, and your hypothetical scenario is conjecture. What we know and what the Z team knows is killer robots were created because some guy wants revenge. This isn't at all like the nazi scientists.

THere's a chart in one of the mangas that show all the different cyborgs. In the chart, it showed #8 was considered a failure by Gero because he wouldn't fight or something along those lines.

[irreality]

We are talking some *serious* stockholm syndrome to still hold a grudge against Goku 20 years later if he was kidnapped or forced into service. Look at the reaction of Dr. Frappe vs. Dr. Gero (Even if it is filler). The attitude of the people in the North City was in general terrorized by RR Army. Lots of them were survivors of their cruelty, and hailed Goku even years and years later. To think one of them would still be holding a grudge against Goku does not point towards that interpretation of events.

If we are going to dismiss filler of Dr. Frappe, we know Dr. Gero is not exactly the nicest person. Look at how Android #8 is treated, and the other androids probably would also have some tortured backstory. Lapis and Lazuli were kidnapped to be turned into androids.

Sure, a lot of this is hindsight. But if someone is *stilll* holding on to the ideals of an org 20 years later, they aren't a bystander forced into service. A random Nazi might be a conscript. A Neo Nazi in the backwoods is not.

[ABED]

Plus Gero's plans extend beyond his grudge for Goku. It's not merely about vengeance for him.

[ekrolo2]

Slightly off topic, but did Toriyama tie in the death of Gero's son in anyway to Gokus destroying of the RRA? Because that'd really add a lot to the Cell being a follow up to the RRA arc.

[ABED]

Slightly off topic, but did Toriyama tie in the death of Gero's son in anyway to Gokus destroying of the RRA? Because that'd really add a lot to the Cell being a follow up to the RRA arc.

How so?

[ekrolo2]

Slightly off topic, but did Toriyama tie in the death of Gero's son in anyway to Gokus destroying of the RRA? Because that'd really add a lot to the Cell being a follow up to the RRA arc.

How so?

Because Gero just wants revenge on Goku for destroying the RRA as far as we (vaguely) understand. How much better would it be if Goku's assault on the RRA base got Gero's son killed? I know Toriyama fills in this bit of backstory a long time after the Cell Saga completed but I think Goku being directly responsible for his death would've gone a long way to solidify just why this old dude is so hell bent on killing Goku and might've gotten Goku to *gasp* actually stop and think about the repercussions of his decisions!

[ABED]

Because Gero just wants revenge on Goku for destroying the RRA as far as we (vaguely) understand. How much better would it be if Goku's assault on the RRA base got Gero's son killed?

That feels trite.

It certainly explains the animosity against Goku, but not why he wants to dominate the world.

[ekrolo2]

Because Gero just wants revenge on Goku for destroying the RRA as far as we (vaguely) understand. How much better would it be if Goku's assault on the RRA base got Gero's son killed?

That feels trite.

Kind of yeah but at least it gives him a better reason to hate Goku and want him gone than vague revenge because vague not totally explained reasons dictate it must be so.

[ABED]

Because Gero just wants revenge on Goku for destroying the RRA as far as we (vaguely) understand. How much better would it be if Goku's assault on the RRA base got Gero's son killed?

That feels trite.

Kind of yeah but at least it gives him a better reason to hate Goku and want him gone than vague revenge because vague not totally explained reasons dictate it must be so.

But then you're being asked to care about Gero's son who we don't meet. I can easily buy Gero's revenge. It's not vague. We know what Goku did. Goku destroyed the RRA and their plans for domination. Gero was a believer, and Goku ruined it all.