Rationalizing forgotten attacks

[Saiga]

I see no reason to assume it would work on other demons, either. Because the person who created the technique didn't have full information on the enemy they intended to seal, so who knows if they would base it on the correct (demon) properties of the target?

No reason to assume it even though Piccolo is literally a demon and the technique is "Mafuba"? Seems like a reason to me. I don't know if the technique would actually work on other demons, nor did I state that it would definitely work since there could be a lot of reasons for it to not succeed, but there's obvious reasons to assume that the technique was created as something to seal demons. However, there's no reason to assume it was created to work on Namekians. Dragon Ball is 99% of the time pretty straightforward.

But that's just ignoring that the person who coined the name "Mafuba" didn't have any clue what a Namekian was, and therefore would not appreciate the difference between Namekians and demons. So how is Mutaito to know if the technique is working on Daimao's demonic properties or his Namekian properties?

[Lunatic Fringe]

You know what I miss most, the Power Pole. Now that was an item that was useful and unique in combat.

I'm actually glad that item was forgotten about. The idea of Beerus getting smacked around by a wooden pole seems pretty silly to me.

[Polyphase Avatron]

You know what I miss most, the Power Pole. Now that was an item that was useful and unique in combat.

I'm actually glad that item was forgotten about. The idea of Beerus getting smacked around by a wooden pole seems pretty silly to me.

As silly as Beerus knocking people out with chopsticks?

[rereboy]

But that's just ignoring that the person who coined the name "Mafuba" didn't have any clue what a Namekian was, and therefore would not appreciate the difference between Namekians and demons. So how is Mutaito to know if the technique is working on Daimao's demonic properties or his Namekian properties?

I'm not ignoring it at all. I've considered that possibility and logically concluded that that possibility would only make sense if it wasn't confirmed that he was also a demon. But it's confirmed that he really was a demon. As such, it makes no sense to assume that it's meant for Namekians like you are suggesting.

[TheZFighter]

I can't exactly remember the context of when the Dodonpa was said to be stronger than the Kamehameha, but I always just assumed that was just big talk by the Crane School.

If I remember rightly it was Master Roshi who said that the Dodonpa was stronger than the Kamehameha.

Regarding rationalising forgotten attacks, Dodonpa was the signature move of the Crane School, and the only characters involved with this school were the Crane Hermit, Tao, Tienshinhan and Chiaotzu. The first two characters hardly featured again after Dragon Ball (I think Tao appeared in some filler before the Cell Games, I can't recall the Crane Hermit ever reappearing), Tienshinhan used the (warning: assuming) more powerfulTri-Beam and Neo Tri-Beam, and Chiaotzu retired from fighting. As far as I'm aware nobody else used it or learned it.

I agree with a lot of the earlier comments though. I find the fights nowadays very same-y.

[Lunatic Fringe]

You know what I miss most, the Power Pole. Now that was an item that was useful and unique in combat.

I'm actually glad that item was forgotten about. The idea of Beerus getting smacked around by a wooden pole seems pretty silly to me.

As silly as Beerus knocking people out with chopsticks?

No, mostly because I can buy chopsticks being used to target pressure points with their pointed edges.

But seriously, I really can't buy contemporary weapons being a real threat to people post-Saiyan Saga. I mean, I know the Nyoi-Bō isn't exactly contemporary but really, it's calling card is that it can extend to great lengths. It's not like ki attacks, where the strength behind them has higher limitations. There's really only so much a standard sword can do no matter who's wielding it.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Tell that to Trunks and Mecha Freeza.

[Ringworm128]

I assume the in universe reason for Kamehameha being the most used technique because It's the most practical. It does a good amount of damage without using too much ki, has a good size radiance making it harder to dodge and it can be charged for more power.

Tell that to Trunks and Mecha Freeza.

My take on it is that Trunks can put his ki into his sword the same way he would his punches and kicks allowing it to become more powerful than it would be on its own. Hence why it could slice through Freeza like butter but did nothing to 18, since 18 was far stronger than Trunks at that time.

[Hitiro]

I assume the in universe reason for Kamehameha being the most used technique because It's the most practical. It does a good amount of damage without using too much ki, has a good size radiance making it harder to dodge and it can be charged for more power.

Tell that to Trunks and Mecha Freeza.

My take on it is that Trunks can put his ki into his sword the same way he would his punches and kicks allowing it to become more powerful than it would be on its own. Hence why it could slice through Freeza like butter but did nothing to 18, since 18 was far stronger than Trunks at that time.

This is probably the most plausible really considering that Goku also pretty much injected Ki into his finger to fend off the sword. I believe that channeling Ki into weapons is not exactly something new to people who believe in the ideology of Ki either.

[LightBing]

In Dragon Ball Online, Goten and Trunks school is based exactly on the concept of channeling ki into swords. Shame there's no exclusive weapon users, it would give so many more possibilities to fight's.

Mirai Trunks defeat of Freeza was one of the best killings in the series; impact wise.

[Polyphase Avatron]

So why couldn't Goku do with that Nyoi-bo?

[Hitiro]

So why couldn't Goku do with that Nyoi-bo?

Who's saying he didn't? And if he wasn't it may just be that at the time he couldn't manipulate his Ki like that? I mean his Ki manipulation was very lacking in the first half of the manga. He only starts to shoot Ki blasts in the Namek arc for instance. It's probably more the sake that he isn't properly trained in combat with weapons that he avoids using it. Because it would just be a hindrance to his fighting at this point.

[Saiga]

But that's just ignoring that the person who coined the name "Mafuba" didn't have any clue what a Namekian was, and therefore would not appreciate the difference between Namekians and demons. So how is Mutaito to know if the technique is working on Daimao's demonic properties or his Namekian properties?

I'm not ignoring it at all. I've considered that possibility and logically concluded that that possibility would only make sense if it wasn't confirmed that he was also a demon. But it's confirmed that he really was a demon. As such, it makes no sense to assume that it's meant for Namekians like you are suggesting.

No, you are. Because I'm not assuming it's meant for Namekians. I'm saying there is no in-universe reason to believe it's for demons over namekians when Mutato couldn't possibly understand the difference between the two.

[rereboy]

No, you are. Because I'm not assuming it's meant for Namekians. I'm saying there is no in-universe reason to believe it's for demons over namekians when Mutato couldn't possibly understand the difference between the two.

Piccolo is confirmed to have been an actual demon. Mutaito created a technique named as demon containment wave/seal. No one had no idea Piccolo was also an alien besides being a demon. Piccolo announced to everyone he was a demon and so, anyone who was aware of Piccolo, was also aware of that announcement.

These are facts from the series.

Based on these facts, when I think about the possibility of Mutaito's technique not being effective for demons, but Namekians, I wonder if it makes sense for Mutaito to create a technique meant to defeat an actual confirmed demon, who had announced to everyone that he was a demon, that nobody even knew that he was also a Namekian besides being a demon, that doesn't actually work on demons, only Namekians. And the answer I reach is: it doesn't. It might have made some sense if there was doubt that Piccolo was an actual demon, but since that's confirmed, it simply doesn't.

So, no, I'm not ignoring it at all. I've analyzed the facts, I've considered the possibilities and I've reached what seems to be the most logical conclusion to me, aka what makes the most sense to me. If you want to reach another conclusion based on those facts, you are free to do so, but I would greatly appreciate it if you would stop claiming that I'm "ignoring" possibilities just because I disagree with you. If you don't, there's no point at all in engaging you at all in any way.

[TripleRach]

To play demon king's advocate, I suppose it is possible that Mutaito fucked up and the Mafuuba actually targets Namekians. It's also possible that it targets people with green skin, people with four fingers, people with antennae, people with pointy ears, etc... We can't truly prove any of it one way or another, because it's not like there's Mafuuba source code for us to analyze and compare to Namekian or demon DNA samples. All we can really do is speculate and question things.

But for the most part, I agree with everything rereboy is saying. Everything in and out of universe suggests to me that it's all about demons, and I haven't seen any reason to doubt it.

[Hitiro]

No, you are. Because I'm not assuming it's meant for Namekians. I'm saying there is no in-universe reason to believe it's for demons over namekians when Mutato couldn't possibly understand the difference between the two.

Piccolo is confirmed to have been an actual demon. Mutaito created a technique named as demon containment wave/seal. No one had no idea Piccolo was also an alien besides being a demon. Piccolo announced to everyone he was a demon and so, anyone who was aware of Piccolo, was also aware of that announcement.

These are facts from the series.

Based on these facts, when I think about the possibility of Mutaito's technique not being effective for demons, but Namekians, I wonder if it makes sense for Mutaito to create a technique meant to defeat an actual confirmed demon, who had announced to everyone that he was a demon, that nobody even knew that he was also a Namekian besides being a demon, that doesn't actually work on demons, only Namekians. And the answer I reach is: it doesn't. It might have made some sense if there was doubt that Piccolo was an actual demon, but since that's confirmed, it simply doesn't.

So, no, I'm not ignoring it at all. I've analyzed the facts, I've considered the possibilities and I've reached what seems to be the most logical conclusion to me, aka what makes the most sense to me. If you want to reach another conclusion based on those facts, you are free to do so, but I would greatly appreciate it if you would stop claiming that I'm "ignoring" possibilities just because I disagree with you. If you don't, there's no point at all in engaging you at all in any way.

Your rationalization is that just because he is confirmed to be a demon then it must work on all demons. For all we know Piccolo could have been a "Demon Namekian" and as such while he is still very much a demon he still has attributes that make him a Namekian. He can create offspring like Namekians for instance. As such we can't just assume that what Mutaito was targeting within Piccolo's soul was the demon part of the Namekian part. There is literally no way for Mutaito to tell unless he had an understanding of demons from before. If he was targeting Piccolo's soul/ki as a whole then it would probably also only work on Demon Namekian's. As there is a difference between a proper demon and a demon Namekian.

And I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that it might have made sense if there was doubt that Piccolo was an actual demon. How would that work? Nobody, Kami included, was sure of what Piccolo was. So how would there be any doubt in it? If I went to a world where nobody knew I was a human and for some reason I could display monstrous feats then in all likelihood I would also be called a demon, in their language or course. And to them there would be no doubt that I was a demon. Because that is the only thing I could be to them.

[rereboy]

]Your rationalization is that just because he is confirmed to be a demon then it must work on all demons.

No at all. I say that because:

a) The technique is literally called "demon containment wave/seal", named by Mutaito;
b) Piccolo announced to everyone that he was a demon;
c) Piccolo is confirmed to have been an actual demon;
d) no one knew that Piccolo was also a Namekian or even what a Namekian was.

This all points towards that. It's not merely the fact that he was a demon. Another conclusion goes against all of this and simply makes less sense or no sense.

What I said was simply that if he wasn't confirmed as a demon, there would have been some more sense in arguing if the technique actually worked on demons.

For all we know Piccolo could have been a "Demon Namekian" and as such while he is still very much a demon he still has attributes that make him a Namekian. He can create offspring like Namekians for instance. As such we can't just assume that what Mutaito was targeting within Piccolo's soul was the demon part of the Namekian part. There is literally no way for Mutaito to tell unless he had an understanding of demons from before. If he was targeting Piccolo's soul/ki as a whole then it would probably also only work on Demon Namekian's. As there is a difference between a proper demon and a demon Namekian.

You can't shoot down one possibility by listing the tiny details that aren't extensively explained (which will, pretty much, always exist to some extent), and then give credit to a possibility that has much less support than the previous one. It's incoherent and it's bad logic.

What's coherent and logical is to give our support to the possibility that has the strongest support and makes the most sense. In this case, imo, it's what I've stated. The possibility of it working on Namekians, not demons, has much less support and makes much less sense or no sense, imo.

The only time when it makes sense to give our support to several stances is when several possibilities have comparable support and make comparable sense.

And I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that it might have made sense if there was doubt that Piccolo was an actual demon

Because, if it wasn't confirmed that he was an actual demon, we could argue that Piccolo was just boasting about being a demon when he wasn't, that he was just an alien and people confused that with being a demon, that the revelation that he was an alien implicitly told us that he wasn't an actual demon, and that since the technique worked even though he actually wasn't a demon, then the technique wasn't meant to work (literally) on demons, or it worked on more than just demons.

But since he actually WAS a demon, that whole line of reasoning falls.

[Saiga]

What you're not addressing is that nobody (except for Daimao) can fully grasp what a demon is in-universe unless they have all information available to them. From an out-of-universe perspective I completely agree that it being about anything other than him being a demon would not make sense, but speaking purely in-universe there's no reason to think Mutaito could specifically target Daimao's demon properties when he doesn't know everything about Daimao.

The fact that Mutaito named it the "demon containment wave" doesn't make it any more likely to relate to all demons in-universe if Mutaito doesn't fully understand them

The fact that Piccolo announced it doesn't make it more likely Mutaito would understand, nor his confirmation

The fact that nobody knew Piccolo was a Namekian, or what a Namekian was, doesn't help at all. In fact, that's exactly what I'm saying the problem is - if Mutaito has no knowledge of Namekians, he has incomplete knowledge of Daimao. If he has incomplete knowledge of Daimao, he can't truly understand what separates Daimao from non-demons. Like Rach said, Piccolo has many differences from what Mutaito would know as non-demons, and not all of them stem from being a demon. Therefore, how does Mutaito create a technique specifically for demons when he only has one subject to work off, and he doesn't truly understand the subject?

If we were shown that Mutaito understood demons, or their were non-Namekians examples he knew of, then I would believe that in-universe it makes the most sense that it works on demons specifically. Otherwise, it's just a co-incidence, even if it makes the most sense out of universe.

That's what I mean about you ignoring me. You didn't seem to address any of what I was saying, just kept repeating your stance.