The utter failure that is Revival of F.

[Gaffer Tape]

The attitude Toriyama displays here is problematic. What he says is "Battle of Gods didn't have enough action scenes and fanservice, so I put that in Resurrection F." That's just the wrong way of looking at something like this; you don't throw in action scenes for the sake of having action scenes, you have an action scene when the story demands there be one, and it should drive the story forward, and fanservice should not be the selling point of the movie; fanservice is fine, in moderation, but a movie should not be written for the sheer purpose of delivering it.

It's uncanny how well that one answer exposes why this movie had these problems and why they weren't as bad in BoG. Toriyama had fun writing BoG because he was writing a real story, something he wanted to tell, but the feedback he got was "need action scenes and fanservice", so he doesn't care anymore.

Ooh, I am extremely impressed with that assessment, and I couldn't agree more. Fanservice should never be a priority in telling a story. It seems that Toriyama was more interested in trying to please the fans than doing that. And that almost seems a silly thing to complain about. "Oh, how dare Toriyama try to please the fans. What a hack!" No, that's not what I mean. It's just that pleasing the fans should be the intended RESULT of a good storytelling effort. It shouldn't be in the construction of it.

[ABED]

Fanservice is in the eye of the beholder. If it's good, it's good storytelling, if it's not, it's fan service. I also don't think I would be so presumptuous as to know why an artist creates things the way they do unless I had it in their own words.

And how does one know when a story demands an action scene. It's perfectly reasonable to craft a story with the intention of having it heavier on action, especially in an action show like DB.

[dbzfan7]

Too be honest whether you love this movie or hate it, it's only really a failure if it doesn't garner enough money from it. ROF did well so by that alone it's not an utter failure. I can seriously hate a direction of a series or franchise, but if it's financially succeeding, then they must be doing something right.

The attitude Toriyama displays here is problematic. What he says is "Battle of Gods didn't have enough action scenes and fanservice, so I put that in Resurrection F." That's just the wrong way of looking at something like this; you don't throw in action scenes for the sake of having action scenes, you have an action scene when the story demands there be one, and it should drive the story forward, and fanservice should not be the selling point of the movie; fanservice is fine, in moderation, but a movie should not be written for the sheer purpose of delivering it.

It's uncanny how well that one answer exposes why this movie had these problems and why they weren't as bad in BoG. Toriyama had fun writing BoG because he was writing a real story, something he wanted to tell, but the feedback he got was "need action scenes and fanservice", so he doesn't care anymore.

Ooh, I am extremely impressed with that assessment, and I couldn't agree more. Fanservice should never be a priority in telling a story. It seems that Toriyama was more interested in trying to please the fans than doing that. And that almost seems a silly thing to complain about. "Oh, how dare Toriyama try to please the fans. What a hack!" No, that's not what I mean. It's just that pleasing the fans should be the intended RESULT of a good storytelling effort. It shouldn't be in the construction of it.

Wow this really explains why this movie is so forgettable. It feels like it'd fit in line with the other 13 movies excluding Battle of Gods.

[Faustus]

I suppose FutureProtagonist’s point is fair as far as it pertains to F specifically, and it perhaps would indeed be problematic and something to worry about if it were decidedly suggestive of Toriyama's patterns of approach to his modern work more generally. But what with all his talk of constantly needing to expand the world during the manga’s serialization to keep the story going -- like, among other things, his insistence on having Goku grow up in the 23rd budokai before then launching the story out into space and across time in the Freeza and Cell arcs respectively -- and with BoG, Jaco, and now the U6 stuff too, I don’t doubt Toriyama himself recognizes it’s absolutely not a tenable mode for the series in the longer term. As his own one-off nostalgic take on the traditional Z film formula -- to serve, as Cipher earlier suggested, as a sort of intermediate reprieve before setting out for new horizons -- 'F' works well enough as far as I am concerned. Others will be free to disagree, but I'm of the opinion that fanservice for its own sake is fine every now and then, especially in the case of a transitional episode like this.

[Kid Buu]

Lord Exor, if you don't mind me asking, do you believe Linda Young's Freeza to be superior because of the direction, or the voice? Or maybe both? Just curious since it seems that Linda Young not being Freeza in this film highly dampened your enjoyment of this film.

[Lord Exor]

The film's innate shortcomings notwithstanding, Linda Young not being Frieza did marginally hinder my enthusiasm for the piece. That being said, I'm not certain even she would have been enough to exculpate this shallow, poorly-plotted affair.

As far as why I prefer Linda Young, I believe it to be a combination of voice and direction. I certainly appreciated the creative liberties taken with the character, but I also find her voice better suited to the alien, yet epicene character model. Linda also does a splendid job communicating scorn; her every word drips with contemptuous derision, crafting a brilliantly odious personality.

If Freeza absolutely must be recast, I would vastly prefer another female actor. Perhaps Nika Futterman?

[Zephyr]

I think "fanservice" constraining the writing is acceptable in small doses. The long term effects of its regular influence on the narrative could certainly be detrimental, but one occasional ride can't hurt.

The character usage and the interaction between them created an enjoyable chemistry and atmosphere for the film, to me. Watching Roshi and Tenshinhan kicking ass was wonderful to see. Yes, it could have been even more wonderful if we were given intricately thought-out story justifications for their ass-kicking - but that should hardly be a strict requirement for the enjoyment of the occasional Dragon Ball fight scene.

I enjoyed seeing more of Hell, pretty much everything involving Jaco, Bulma's banter with Freeza, the collective banter between Goku, Vegeta, and Freeza, all of the real-world martial arts/wuxia elements and references, and I honestly don't have any aversion to the new forms. I really like what the film does in regard to world-building. But I can also understand if these bits that I enjoyed were not as enjoyable for others.

I think in universe it raised a few interesting questions, such as: "Why does Freeza's armor regenerate with his body?", and a lot of other ones that a great deal of people may be uncomfortable having to re-evaluate. That's not to say that I can't empathize with and understand the perspective of those uncomfortable needing to do such, it's rather that I think it's nice to see things occasionally shaken up.

It wasn't as complex and structurally sound as it could have been, but not everything has to be (nor has it ever generally been). I do actually think that it has its own narrative strengths, but even if one is inclined to disregard them, RoF still works perfectly as the "middle action" of the greater "God/Multiverse" tripartite-arc; a bridge-piece between the 1st and 2nd major acts.

---

The occasional video game graphics, the modern artstyle, a lot of the score, and a lot of the musical placement are still my only significant gripes with the film, after 3 full viewings.

[ekrolo2]

It's more or less proof Toriyama doesn't care or at the very least his priorities are totally fucked. Here's a little nugget of wisdom: fans will watch your shit anyway. Pay no heed about fan wanking them, craft a decent storyline which isn't asking too much since this isn't Dostojevski and you've got a good shot of making something that isn't as horribly pointless as this movie.

[Kuririn Fan]

Chris Ayres killed it as Freeza. I prefer japanese version, but i must admit he made the dub almost as good.BoG is still a better movie, but this one is a lot of fun, from start to finish and nowhere near utter failure.

[Lord Beerus]

It's more or less proof Toriyama doesn't care or at the very least his priorities are totally fucked. Here's a little nugget of wisdom: fans will watch your shit anyway. Pay no heed about fan wanking them, craft a decent storyline which isn't asking too much since this isn't Dostojevski and you've got a good shot of making something that isn't as horribly pointless as this movie.

There are so many movies out there that don't have a "point", but are still immensely entertaining for what they bring to the table. Resurrection F in no different to any other action movie in the last 30 years such as Die Hard, The Raid, Hard Boiled, John Wick and The Killer. Do any of those movies have a point? No. Are they incredibly entertaining for what they are and what they bring to the table? Yes. Toriyama has never prided himself on being a great storyteller, he's just more interested in ensuring what he draws or what he writes entertains millions of youngs boys. And Resurrection F succeeded in that.

[ABED]

It's more or less proof Toriyama doesn't care or at the very least his priorities are totally fucked. Here's a little nugget of wisdom: fans will watch your shit anyway. Pay no heed about fan wanking them, craft a decent storyline which isn't asking too much since this isn't Dostojevski and you've got a good shot of making something that isn't as horribly pointless as this movie.

<br abp="687">There are so many movies out there that don't have a "point", but are still immensely entertaining for what they bring to the table. Resurrection F in no different to any other action movie in the last 30 years such as Die Hard, The Raid, Hard Boiled, John Wick and The Killer. Do any of those movies have a point? No. Are they incredibly entertaining for what they are and what they bring to the table? Yes. Toriyama has never prided himself on being a great storyteller, he's just more interested in ensuring what he draws or what he writes entertains millions of youngs boys. And Resurrection F succeeded in that.

Well put. What do people who use the phrase "this was pointless" mean? What are they looking for? Many films don't have any greater ambition than to entertain the audience which is not something to sneeze at. It's a perfectly valid "point".

[Faustus]

Also, say what you will about the man's artistic priorities or the coherence of the final product, but to say that he flat-out doesn't care or that he's lazy (as you so often hear) is just incorrect every which way. Even in 'F' he is ever so particular about the dialog, and overall continues to actively contribute to the series way in excess of what we might normally expect from a man his age.

[ekrolo2]

It's more or less proof Toriyama doesn't care or at the very least his priorities are totally fucked. Here's a little nugget of wisdom: fans will watch your shit anyway. Pay no heed about fan wanking them, craft a decent storyline which isn't asking too much since this isn't Dostojevski and you've got a good shot of making something that isn't as horribly pointless as this movie.

<br abp="687">There are so many movies out there that don't have a "point", but are still immensely entertaining for what they bring to the table. Resurrection F in no different to any other action movie in the last 30 years such as Die Hard, The Raid, Hard Boiled, John Wick and The Killer. Do any of those movies have a point? No. Are they incredibly entertaining for what they are and what they bring to the table? Yes. Toriyama has never prided himself on being a great storyteller, he's just more interested in ensuring what he draws or what he writes entertains millions of youngs boys. And Resurrection F succeeded in that.

Well put. What do people who use the phrase "this was pointless" mean? What are they looking for? Many films don't have any greater ambition than to entertain the audience which is not something to sneeze at. It's a perfectly valid "point".

I'm looking for advancement in the characters or the world or whatever the storyline is. F doesn't do any of those three things. Goku and Vegeta are severely regressed, Freeza is the same moron he was before, nothing new (that couldn't be introduced just as easily in U6) is here and the there is no storyline to speak of at all. If this was the first throwaway, cheap thrills DB movie ever I wouldn't mind it but this is literally the 14th one of its kind.

And even then, at least some of the original 13 had some interesting concepts like a rival of Kami's sort of returning to get vengeance on him or the Tree Might and some of them had some genuinely good animation and interesting landscape to play with. The only department F is superior is that it's the only DB thing in ages that has something resembling fighting choreography.

But not taking all this into account, I could forgive these problems if I found the movie entertaining but I don't. All I kept saying was "what the fuck" or "why is he acting like this?" or "fuck off Vegeta, just... fuck off" and the ending is pretty much a big middle finger to anyone who like character development. It's not like TDKRises where I can see and admit the faults but then say that there are enough positives to outweigh the cons. Besides, Dragon Ball isn't Dostojevski, I think its fair to expect at least some decent writing from it with a little consistency at least in how people act.

[ABED]

Goku and Vegeta are severely regressed, Freeza is the same moron he was before, nothing new (that couldn't be introduced just as easily in U6) is here and the there is no storyline to speak of at all.

They aren't regressed, they stay the same/similar.
Freeza trained for the first time, so he's not stupid even though he made a fatal error and for a villain that's just good writing. Arrogance is a great traint for a villain. There is a very simple story, Freeza wants revenge for what was done to him. I'm not saying it's a great movie and the Piccolo thing still bugs me, but there's enjoyment to be had. There is some advancement in the world, Vegeta is now training with Goku who was training under Whis.

"why is he acting like this?"

Who?

the ending is pretty much a big middle finger to anyone who like character development.

I like the ending, they are who they are. I like character development, but what I'm looking for more than anything is characters. Do i like them or find them interesting? That's more important than if they change. I might not like the change and change isn't axiomatically good. And to be honest, I prefer that Goku and Vegeta want to be the best and win on their terms. This isn't a series about heroes saving the world. Sure, there are heroes and they save the world, but it's more about martial artists and their desire to be the best. I like where Goku and Vegeta are at this point in their journey. They are pushing each other to be their best, but Vegeta isn't the evil bastard he used to be.

[ekrolo2]

Goku and Vegeta are severely regressed, Freeza is the same moron he was before, nothing new (that couldn't be introduced just as easily in U6) is here and the there is no storyline to speak of at all.

They aren't regressed, they stay the same/similar.
Freeza trained for the first time, so he's not stupid even though he made a fatal error and for a villain that's just good writing. Arrogance is a great traint for a villain. There is a very simple story, Freeza wants revenge for what was done to him. I'm not saying it's a great movie and the Piccolo thing still bugs me, but there's enjoyment to be had. There is some advancement in the world, Vegeta is now training with Goku who was training under Whis.

"why is he acting like this?"

Who?

the ending is pretty much a big middle finger to anyone who like character development.

I like the ending, they are who they are. I like character development, but what I'm looking for more than anything is characters. Do i like them or find them interesting? That's more important than if they change. I might not like the change and change isn't axiomatically good. And to be honest, I prefer that Goku and Vegeta want to be the best and win on their terms. This isn't a series about heroes saving the world. Sure, there are heroes and they save the world, but it's more about martial artists and their desire to be the best. I like where Goku and Vegeta are at this point in their journey. They are pushing each other to be their best, but Vegeta isn't the evil bastard he used to be.

The point of Goku is that he isn't an arrogant moron at the end of BoG, what's his flaw here? He's an arrogant moron who thinks he's a number one baby again. Where was Vegeta at the end of the Boo Saga? Accepting of the fact Goku was better than him, what's he like now? A laughable caricature of himself who keeps acting like an ass to Goku but tells him he'll never, ever work with him (because the last chunk of the Boo Saga clearly didn't happen anymore). Him training with Whis is one of those things that easily could've just been introduced at the very start of U6, its not any kind of world building that you absolutely need RF to do.

Freeza staying the same is the big problem. We've already seen Freeza get his ass annihilated twice in the manga and four times if you count GT and Fusion Reborn before this for the same reason as it is here: he's arrogant. I don't want or need a 90-minute movie that's basically "Lol, Freeza is so arrogant!". What would've been a lot more interesting is for him to get over his arrogance and become a more effective villain. But since Dragon Ball villains either stay evil forever or turn full-fledged good guy, I guess I'm being unreasonable for asking something new to happen.

You might be okay with everyone doing the same dance routine, but frankly I'm sick of it at this point. I'm sick of Goku being a bastard and neither he nor anyone is doing anything about it. Cell Saga Vegeta wore out his welcome 20 years ago and I certainly don't need Prince Asshole 2.0 back again and Toriyama really needs to stop pissing on good progression he made for both of them. It's tired, it's overdone and there's nothing remotely enjoyable you can do with it anymore. If a series can't progress, shoot it in the head, bury it somewhere and leave it the fuck alone.

[Ree]

have to agree with Lord Exor he was too wordy, it fit the character but still.

[Lord Exor]

You're completely on-point, ekrolo. Why bother producing a movie of this sort, at this point in the brand's lifespan, only to go through the motions and reiterate what's already been iterated? It's an exercise in superfluity and if this is meant to be a bridge in an arc, it's a rather slipshod and erroneous one. Outside of introducing "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" (how that made its way off the drawing board I'll never quite know), the entire ordeal contributes what amounts to essentially nothing. It's pure filler, and insulting filler at that.

[Truhan]

Resurrection of F is the Days of Future Past of Dragon Ball movies. It wasn't completely necessary to move the plot from its predecessor, but if they didn't use this opportunity to return the franchise to the long forgotten era of Namek, we would be stuck with Gods until the end, because the stakes are now higher than before. Freeza had always been touted as a powerful being, and his return was welcomed and kept in check, because we can't forget where the franchise was headed. Even the movie's cast reflected its inspiration on Saiyan through Namek sagas, keeping Gotenks and Buu out of the picture (and with Gohan doubling as Yamcha). Now, if DBS ends with a transition to the RoF events, I'll be satisfied, because I want new stories to be focused and well written (or animated) for an hour or two. Thankfully, there is a third movie in the works.

[ABED]

to go through the motions and reiterate what's already been iterated

Those aren't the same thing. I don't think he went through the motions. The movie didn't break new ground, but it's an enjoyable movie which is ultimately what matters. It's growing on me in spite of its flaws.

The point of Goku is that he isn't an arrogant moron at the end of BoG, what's his flaw here? He's an arrogant moron who thinks he's a number one baby again. Where was Vegeta at the end of the Boo Saga? Accepting of the fact Goku was better than him, what's he like now? A laughable caricature of himself who keeps acting like an ass to Goku but tells him he'll never, ever work with him (because the last chunk of the Boo Saga clearly didn't happen anymore). Him training with Whis is one of those things that easily could've just been introduced at the very start of U6, its not any kind of world building that you absolutely need RF to do.

If you don't see how different Vegeta is between Buu and here I don't know what to tell you. He's still competitive, but it plays out differently. He's not going to be all world destruction-y, but he doesn't like being surpassed if he can help it. None of it is "needed". That's NEVER been the point.

Freeza staying the same is the big problem. We've already seen Freeza get his ass annihilated twice in the manga and four times if you count GT and Fusion Reborn before this for the same reason as it is here: he's arrogant. I don't want or need a 90-minute movie that's basically "Lol, Freeza is so arrogant!". What would've been a lot more interesting is for him to get over his arrogance and become a more effective villain. But since Dragon Ball villains either stay evil forever or turn full-fledged good guy, I guess I'm being unreasonable for asking something new to happen.

You don't need anything to tell you he's arrogant, it's seeing it play out that's the value. Freeza didn't lose the first time because of his arrogance, he lost simply because he fought someone better.

You might be okay with everyone doing the same dance routine, but frankly I'm sick of it at this point. I'm sick of Goku being a bastard and neither he nor anyone is doing anything about it. Cell Saga Vegeta wore out his welcome 20 years ago and I certainly don't need Prince Asshole 2.0 back again and Toriyama really needs to stop pissing on good progression he made for both of them. It's tired, it's overdone and there's nothing remotely enjoyable you can do with it anymore. If a series can't progress, shoot it in the head, bury it somewhere and leave it the fuck alone.

Vegeta is nowhere near being his Cell arc self. He has progressed, but you seem intent on shutting your eyes to it. Hey, if you don't like where the series is heading, you can just not watch it and let those that still do continue to. If you are this miserable watching it, why do you continue to? You seem very unhappy about it, so I would recommend watching something you do enjoy.

[dae428]

The point of Goku is that he isn't an arrogant moron at the end of BoG, what's his flaw here? He's an arrogant moron who thinks he's a number one baby again. Where was Vegeta at the end of the Boo Saga? Accepting of the fact Goku was better than him, what's he like now? A laughable caricature of himself who keeps acting like an ass to Goku but tells him he'll never, ever work with him (because the last chunk of the Boo Saga clearly didn't happen anymore). Him training with Whis is one of those things that easily could've just been introduced at the very start of U6, its not any kind of world building that you absolutely need RF to do.

Goku had Freeza on his knees. He never expected anyone to actually attack him with the exception of Freeza who he had his full attention on. He was arrogant, but in a way he kind of had a right to be which Whis still mentioned was a flaw. Remember at the end of the Boo arc where he crushes the Potara earrings before the fight with Kid Boo?

Freeza staying the same is the big problem. We've already seen Freeza get his ass annihilated twice in the manga and four times if you count GT and Fusion Reborn before this for the same reason as it is here: he's arrogant. I don't want or need a 90-minute movie that's basically "Lol, Freeza is so arrogant!". What would've been a lot more interesting is for him to get over his arrogance and become a more effective villain. But since Dragon Ball villains either stay evil forever or turn full-fledged good guy, I guess I'm being unreasonable for asking something new to happen.

Freeza is arrogant. That's kind of who he is. That's what makes him such a beloved villain. Would you rather he be a serious stoic, who just blows up Earth from his spaceship? Cause that would make a terrible villain and a boring movie. Unlike his prior appearances, he actually does train to achieve enough power to defeat Goku, the only problem was that due to his own arrogance which is a defining factor of his character, he chose not to master his Golden form and instead show off his forces and kill Goku then and there due to his own impatience which makes sense given who he is.

You might be okay with everyone doing the same dance routine, but frankly I'm sick of it at this point. I'm sick of Goku being a bastard and neither he nor anyone is doing anything about it. Cell Saga Vegeta wore out his welcome 20 years ago and I certainly don't need Prince Asshole 2.0 back again and Toriyama really needs to stop pissing on good progression he made for both of them. It's tired, it's overdone and there's nothing remotely enjoyable you can do with it anymore. If a series can't progress, shoot it in the head, bury it somewhere and leave it the fuck alone.

Just because the story was a bit too simple doesn't mean that it's the same dance routine. We got to see some fun action from characters who haven't had a chance to shine in a while along with some great character interactions from said characters that came across as very Toriyama unlike the previous movies. I don't see how Vegeta was an asshole. Never did he start smiling and bragging about how great he was like he did in the Cell arc. He let Goku fight and saved his life because he admitted that Goku helps him grow as opposed to saying that Goku was his to beat.