The gap between SSJ3 Gotenks & Mystic Gohan

[Tectorman]

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P13.1
Context: after Gotenks-absorbed Boo explains his plan
Gohan: “…Keh…So that’s how it was, huh?...However, despite prattling on so fluently, it seems your stupidity hasn’t changed. If you wanted to take 1st prize, it would have been simple enough to absorb me…!”

In the Japanese translation he refers to himself as "1st prize" so I would think it is clear that he thinks, at least, that he is above Gotenks.

Not what I'm saying, though.

I'm saying that Buu's stated goal is "be the strongest/ take 1st prize/ be the best".

Gohan is aware that A) Buu absorbing himself AND Gotenks AND Piccolo achieves that goal*, and B) he was as caught by surprise by the absorbing blobs as Gotenks and Piccolo were and would have been absorbed just as readily.

Buu did not absorb Gohan when he absorbed Gotenks and Piccolo, which is seemingly in contradiction to his stated goal of "being 1st place" (prior to taking into account Buu's explanation that he wanted a punching bag to use that power against).

Again, Gohan is saying "If you wanted to take first place (by absorbing all three of us in one fell swoop), it would have been simple enough to absorb me (in addition to, not instead of, Gotenks)."

*

Spoiler:

Unless you think that Gohan is under the impression that

the hypothetical Buu/Gohan/Piccolo combination

is greater than

the hypothetical Buu/Gotenks/Piccolo combination

is greater than

the hypothetical Buu/Gohan/Gotenks/Piccolo combination.

In which case, I have to ask why he'd think that.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I don't think that's what Gohan was talking about. Boo explained that he absorbed Gotenks in order to retain his title of the strongest in the universe. Gohan thinks he's stupid for absorbing Gotenks instead of himself. Had Boo absorbed the more powerful Gohan, Gotenks definitely wouldn't have been a match for him. That's why he tells Gohan he absorbed Gotenks so he could fight with Gohan instead. Gohan being more powerful than Gotenks immediately understands his rationale after that. I don't think he's asking why didn't Boo absorb him right after absorbing them.

Basically, "If you wanted to be the strongest, it would've been simple enough to absorb me instead of Gotenks" is the way I see the quote. Keep in mind that Gohan still thinks he can handle Boo at this point.

[Hitiro]

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P13.1
Context: after Gotenks-absorbed Boo explains his plan
Gohan: “…Keh…So that’s how it was, huh?...However, despite prattling on so fluently, it seems your stupidity hasn’t changed. If you wanted to take 1st prize, it would have been simple enough to absorb me…!”

In the Japanese translation he refers to himself as "1st prize" so I would think it is clear that he thinks, at least, that he is above Gotenks.

Not what I'm saying, though.

I'm saying that Buu's stated goal is "be the strongest/ take 1st prize/ be the best".

Gohan is aware that A) Buu absorbing himself AND Gotenks AND Piccolo achieves that goal*, and B) he was as caught by surprise by the absorbing blobs as Gotenks and Piccolo were and would have been absorbed just as readily.

Buu did not absorb Gohan when he absorbed Gotenks and Piccolo, which is seemingly in contradiction to his stated goal of "being 1st place" (prior to taking into account Buu's explanation that he wanted a punching bag to use that power against).

Again, Gohan is saying "If you wanted to take first place (by absorbing all three of us in one fell swoop), it would have been simple enough to absorb me (in addition to, not instead of, Gotenks)."

*

Spoiler:

Unless you think that Gohan is under the impression that

the hypothetical Buu/Gohan/Piccolo combination

is greater than

the hypothetical Buu/Gotenks/Piccolo combination

is greater than

the hypothetical Buu/Gohan/Gotenks/Piccolo combination.

In which case, I have to ask why he'd think that.

I think it is a bit of a stretch to say that all three of them would be a singular prize. If you win a car as a prize then do you ask where are the rest of the items? I would find it weird that he points to getting 1st prize and it actually being multiple prizes.

[Tectorman]

"Taking first place" is being the strongest, which is absorbing all three at once. The power he'd have at the end of all that is the one prize he'd have. Having absorbed Gotenks and Piccolo and not Gohan puts him at the one singular prize of "second place", which is not what he said he wanted.

"I won! I'm taking the blue ribbon!"
"You know that's red, right? And the blue one is over there?"
"Shush you."

[Hitiro]

"Taking first place" is being the strongest, which is absorbing all three at once. The power he'd have at the end of all that is the one prize he'd have. Having absorbed Gotenks and Piccolo and not Gohan puts him at the one singular prize of "second place", which is not what he said he wanted.

"I won! I'm taking the blue ribbon!"
"You know that's red, right? And the blue one is over there?"
"Shush you."

Except the prize here is in direct relation to strength excluding Piccolo. Because Gohan's line follows this:

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P12.2-4
Gohan: “…That was dirty, you bastard…You ingested the two of them into yourself…”
Boo: “It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

So by prizes standard it would be Gohan as 1st prize and Gotenks as 2nd prize with a unnecessary bonus prize of Piccolo. Basically "If you wanted to absorb the strongest then it should have been me. Not Gotenks." Piccolo has no relevance in this exchange. It was just a happy accident for Boo that he also absorbed a smart guy.

[Saiga]

I don't even see how this is even a debate:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P13.1
Boo: “Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!”

This is all you need. By mentioning the time limit, he is unarguably talking about Gotenks. And he outright says Gohan is the bigger power-up for him, when he has no potential bias unlike Gohan or Trunks.

[Sandubadear]

The gap between Gotenks and Gohan is the same as the gap between Buu (Gotenks absorbed) and Buu (Gohan absorbed).

[Hitiro]

The gap between Gotenks and Gohan is the same as the gap between Buu (Gotenks absorbed) and Buu (Gohan absorbed).

That's not entirely true. Because while Goten and Trunks don't really offer anything in their base form they are still offering something. Basically:

Goten
Ki: 1

Trunks
Ki: 1

Piccolo
Ki: 3

Gotenks
Ki: 100

Evil Boo
Ki: 100

Gohan
Ki: 125

Bootenks
Ki: 100 + 100 + 3 = 203

Boohan
Ki: 100 + 125 + 3 + 1 +1 = 230

The gap between Gotenks and Gohan in this example is 25 but the gap between Bootenks and Boohan is 27.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

The gap between Gotenks and Gohan is the same as the gap between Buu (Gotenks absorbed) and Buu (Gohan absorbed).

Unless you mean pure-number wise, it's not. Ex:

Spoiler:

Evil Boo: 7.5

Gotenks: 9
Gohan: 10
Gap: 1.11x

Gotenks-Boo: 16.5
Gohan-Boo: 17.5
Gap: 1.06x

[Sandubadear]

So yeah, the difference (of Boo or without him) is so small it doesn't make a difference.

[Tectorman]

Except the prize here is in direct relation to strength excluding Piccolo. Because Gohan's line follows this:

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P12.2-4
Gohan: “…That was dirty, you bastard…You ingested the two of them into yourself…”
Boo: “It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

So by prizes standard it would be Gohan as 1st prize and Gotenks as 2nd prize with a unnecessary bonus prize of Piccolo. Basically "If you wanted to absorb the strongest then it should have been me. Not Gotenks." Piccolo has no relevance in this exchange. It was just a happy accident for Boo that he also absorbed a smart guy.

Well, yeah, if you read it that way, as the absorbees being the prizes. I don't. I read it as the amount of strength he gets being the prizes, and I don't see how that additional quote or its placement changes anything.

Buu: "If I absorbed that Super Gotenks guy, then I'll be the strongest, no matter who shows up." (Here, Buu claims his current level of power as the strongest, and out of everyone present, he is)
Gohan: "Not the best choice. I was right there. You could have absorbed me and been even more unassailable." (Here, Gohan corrects Buu's assessment, that while his level of strength is the best out of everyone present, it is in fact second to what it could have been, had Buu absorbed him as well)
Buu: "True, but I still want someone to fight against." (Buu explains why he's willing to settle for 1st-place-out-of-everyone-present, as opposed to the best-1st-place-he-could-possibly-be)

I don't even see how this is even a debate:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P13.1
Boo: “Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!”

This is all you need. By mentioning the time limit, he is unarguably talking about Gotenks. And he outright says Gohan is the bigger power-up for him, when he has no potential bias unlike Gohan or Trunks.

This assumes that all instances of absorption are equally power-boosting. If that were the case, then why do we not have Fat Buu (Grand Supreme Kai + South Supreme Kai absorbed) > Buff Buu (South Supreme Kai absorbed) > Kid Buu? I don't hold that absorption is predictable or even always a boost, so I have no problem with Buu gaining a boost out of absorbing one Kai, but diminishing in fighting capability upon absorbing two Kais. I equally have no problem with Buu absorbing one guy who has X strength from one set of resources (SSJ3 + Fusion) and getting one amount of boost and then Buu absorbs another guy, also at X strength but from a different set of resources (Elder Supreme Kai potential unlock), and getting a way different amount of boost. You're assuming absorption has no weird interactions; I'm not.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I don't feel like reading through all of the posts before this to see if someone already brought it up, but Goten outright says Gohan is stronger, and Trunks even admits it's true.

[Darkprince410]

I don't feel like reading through all of the posts before this to see if someone already brought it up, but Goten outright says Gohan is stronger, and Trunks even admits it's true.

It had, but someone responded to it under the notion that it was Goten's comment that wasn't accurate, that they thought that because he was hero worshipping his big brother, that it was his comment that was biased, and that Trunks' that weren't (including the one saying that Gohan was "almost" as strong as Gotenks).

[Kamiccolo9]

Are we seriously arguing that Gotenks is stronger than Gohan? Like, is this really happening right now?

[dbzfan7]

Are we seriously arguing that Gotenks is stronger than Gohan? Like, is this really happening right now?

I'm just as bamboozled. This isn't an argument, and yet somehow it turned into one. It's like arguing that a blue sky is not blue but pink.

[Tectorman]

Are we seriously arguing that Gotenks is stronger than Gohan? Like, is this really happening right now?

I don't know if anyone else is, but I'm not. I'm attributing Gohan's better performance against Buu to his greater experience and more serious mindset. I'm saying that Gohan IS as strong as Gotenks, and is simply making better use of it. Like I said before:

Buu: 6 (fighting at the capacity of a 6)
Gotenks: 8 (but only fighting at the capacity of a 6)
Gohan: 8 (fighting at an eight)

I'm also explaining why I don't find various other bits of dialogue to be suggestive of what seems to be the prevailing opinion, that Gohan is stronger than Gotenks.

But Gohan weaker than Gotenks? Heck to the heck no. Not my claim.

[Saiga]

I don't even see how this is even a debate:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P13.1
Boo: “Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!”

This is all you need. By mentioning the time limit, he is unarguably talking about Gotenks. And he outright says Gohan is the bigger power-up for him, when he has no potential bias unlike Gohan or Trunks.

This assumes that all instances of absorption are equally power-boosting. If that were the case, then why do we not have Fat Buu (Grand Supreme Kai + South Supreme Kai absorbed) > Buff Buu (South Supreme Kai absorbed) > Kid Buu? I don't hold that absorption is predictable or even always a boost, so I have no problem with Buu gaining a boost out of absorbing one Kai, but diminishing in fighting capability upon absorbing two Kais. I equally have no problem with Buu absorbing one guy who has X strength from one set of resources (SSJ3 + Fusion) and getting one amount of boost and then Buu absorbs another guy, also at X strength but from a different set of resources (Elder Supreme Kai potential unlock), and getting a way different amount of boost. You're assuming absorption has no weird interactions; I'm not.

That is such a ridiculous assumption to make. We KNOW why Dai Kaioshin wasn't a straight addition, because he was a unique case that weakend Boo and it was EXPLAINED that he weakened Boo.

It's much safer to assume it doesn't have weird, unmentioned interactions than to assume that it does. Especially when there's nothing to hint that, you just need it to be that way to be able to argue away the evidence.

We've got multiple statements that Gohan was stronger than Gotenks, and a statement that Gohan gives a bigger boost of raw power to Boo. These go together much better than saying the first statements are wrong and Gohan's boost comes from some completely unknown, unmentioned factor. What do you think Toriyama would have been intending to achieve by writing that way? It doesn't make any sense.

Boo even mentions adding people's power to his own, it's safer to assume it works like addition than anything we don't have proof for.

Really, your stance is something that doesn't have anything to support, you're just finding ways to argue against the evidence that supports the opposite. But I don't see any reason to actually believe in that.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

people over hype super buu,he spammed healing like crazy,and gotenks has no fighting skill and was goofing off like crazy,super buu is not on par with ssj3 gotenks. ssj3 gotenks is almost as strong as gohan,if not more as you see him do a more brutal beatdown in the last few seconds of the form when he gets mad. With kamikaze ghost attack he might beat gohan. But gohan has better fighting sense. Gotenks sticks his tongue at super buu,gohan stares him down and fights.

power level wise I think they're the same,gohan and gotenks I mean. super buu cant even handle ssj1 gotenks and I stand by that. without regeneration buu's dead vs ssj1 gotenks.

[Hitiro]

Are we seriously arguing that Gotenks is stronger than Gohan? Like, is this really happening right now?

I don't know if anyone else is, but I'm not. I'm attributing Gohan's better performance against Buu to his greater experience and more serious mindset. I'm saying that Gohan IS as strong as Gotenks, and is simply making better use of it. Like I said before:

Buu: 6 (fighting at the capacity of a 6)
Gotenks: 8 (but only fighting at the capacity of a 6)
Gohan: 8 (fighting at an eight)

I'm also explaining why I don't find various other bits of dialogue to be suggestive of what seems to be the prevailing opinion, that Gohan is stronger than Gotenks.

But Gohan weaker than Gotenks? Heck to the heck no. Not my claim.

Gohan's better performance is due to him being stronger though. Because if we want to say he has greater experience and a more serious mindset the experience doesn't even seem to matter. Goten was able to pressure Gohan in a sparring match despite having less experience and a weaker power level. So if anything a Gotenks that is on par with Gohan should do better than Gohan himself. Especially having the combined experience of both the children who could pressure both Gohan and Vegeta. In fact, their combined experience should rival Gohan's. We also have Goten saying that Gohan is stronger than Gotenks. Trunks also agrees. We also have Boo stating that he can't have anyone stronger than himself. This was only an issue when Gohan showed up. So Gotenks is either on par with Boo here or below him. Frankly I believe that Gotenks is on par with him with the advantage that he has better Ki techniques. Like the Super Ghost Kamikaze attack does ridiculous damage despite SSJ Gotenks being around 8x weaker than Boo.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

Are we seriously arguing that Gotenks is stronger than Gohan? Like, is this really happening right now?

I don't know if anyone else is, but I'm not. I'm attributing Gohan's better performance against Buu to his greater experience and more serious mindset. I'm saying that Gohan IS as strong as Gotenks, and is simply making better use of it. Like I said before:

Buu: 6 (fighting at the capacity of a 6)
Gotenks: 8 (but only fighting at the capacity of a 6)
Gohan: 8 (fighting at an eight)

I'm also explaining why I don't find various other bits of dialogue to be suggestive of what seems to be the prevailing opinion, that Gohan is stronger than Gotenks.

But Gohan weaker than Gotenks? Heck to the heck no. Not my claim.

Gohan's better performance is due to him being stronger though. Because if we want to say he has greater experience and a more serious mindset the experience doesn't even seem to matter. Goten was able to pressure Gohan in a sparring match despite having less experience and a weaker power level. So if anything a Gotenks that is on par with Gohan should do better than Gohan himself. Especially having the combined experience of both the children who could pressure both Gohan and Vegeta. In fact, their combined experience should rival Gohan's. We also have Goten saying that Gohan is stronger than Gotenks. Trunks also agrees. We also have Boo stating that he can't have anyone stronger than himself. This was only an issue when Gohan showed up. So Gotenks is either on par with Boo here or below him. Frankly I believe that Gotenks is on par with him with the advantage that he has better Ki techniques. Like the Super Ghost Kamikaze attack does ridiculous damage despite SSJ Gotenks being around 8x weaker than Boo.

I think you cant really think of ssj3 gotenks as a 8x power increase from ssj1,it doesn't add up with the anime or manga,because ssj1 gotenks>base super buu. the daizenshuus just made up numbers. also gotenks may not even have a ssj2 form.