Toriyama's Statement On the SSJ Multiplier.

[miguelnuva1]

He honestly doesnt even remember his own series.....not even the most smallest parts.

Would you easily remember the entirety of a story you completed almost 20 years ago? Particularly details about secondary aspects (like power level numbers) that you never needed to give a lot of thought?

I might be able to and George Lucas does.

[dario03]

Yeah I always saw that statement as a its what he drew it as but he isn't saying the multiplier is only 10x.
Though personally I would of preferred it to have been 10x and KK maxed out at like 2x. But then a lot of the story prior would of course need to be a little different. Basically I would of made achieving 2xKK the best Goku could have done against Vegeta but by Namek Goku can use it non stop without trouble. Though I guess that wouldn't be as cool as yelling out Kaio-Ken times whatever. Or I just wouldn't of had KK at all. Then again I also just wouldn't of had power levels at all or at least not stated in just numbers...

He honestly doesnt even remember his own series.....not even the most smallest parts.

Would you easily remember the entirety of a story you completed almost 20 years ago? Particularly details about secondary aspects (like power level numbers) that you never needed to give a lot of thought?

I might be able to and George Lucas does.

Han shot FIRST!

[BrolyLSSJ]

He honestly doesnt even remember his own series.....not even the most smallest parts.

Would you easily remember the entirety of a story you completed almost 20 years ago? Particularly details about secondary aspects (like power level numbers) that you never needed to give a lot of thought?

Yes actually I can.

[Hitiro]

Goku could have used a Kaio-ken on top of SSJ if Freeza was at full power, but the fact is no one stated that Freeza was at full power or even half power. He used one Ki blast in a suppressed state then thought he had defeated Trunks and then proceeded to get caught off guard and killed because Trunks did the smart thing and killed him before he powered up. Freeza took time reaching his full power in his original body so I imagine trying to reach 100% within seconds in an unfamiliar machine body would be as challenging, with how ROF depicts him Freeza very impulsively wants revenge so badly that he will overlook any faults he might attain and his machine body was possibly more of a hinderance than an advantage in the regard of powering up his Ki efficiently.
Cell was not held off by half of Gohan's Ki, he was held off by Gohan taking it seriously. Note that Base Vegeta was able to break Cell's concentration so it's not out of the question that SSJ2 Gohan could kill Cell with them being very close.

If Goku could use Kaio-ken on top of SSJ then he would have demolished Freeza rather than having a fairly close fight If you think 28x is a good multiplier for SSJ then he could just do Kaio-ken x2 and be 64x stronger than base which would be much stronger than Freeza. If you put his SSJ transformation down to 10 he can still amplify it by 10x safely. Making his power 100x base and that would again put him massively higher than Freeza. Freeza comfortably transitioned up to 70% of his power before he showed any sort of charging that would place him even with Trunks if SSJ was a multiplier of 28x and Trunks had a battle power of 3 million. But that is purely even with Pre-Mecha Freeza, Freeza gained enough of a power-up he thought that Goku would have been defeated with. So his 70% is clearly already greater than this. And in all likelihood Trunks was weaker than 3 million if Goku hasn't improved and was still able to demonstrate that effortless defense he did against Trunks. And to be fair nobody is going to say "He's at half power." Only the character demonstrating their power can state something like that. The only thing other characters can really say is "He's not using his full power." or "He is using his full power." They can't gauge stuff like who's using half of their power. The story practically shows us this numerous times that a character can't discern how much power a character can output until they output their maximum.

[BrolyLSSJ]

Full power because they stated so?
Naruto can state he can bust a universe is that a fact?
If
Ichigo states HE can beat goku is that a fact?
Character statements self-claimed or not SHOULDNT be taken as fact until proven.

[GTX]

Full power because they stated so?
Naruto can state he can bust a universe is that a fact?
If
Ichigo states HE can beat goku is that a fact?
Character statements self-claimed or not SHOULDNT be taken as fact until proven.

I agree. Goku can destroy universe is a baseless claim too. Actually the shockwave can only cracking the earth, Destroy asteroid belt rock and destroy 1 random planet in somewhere random. It's very far from destroying the universe. It's even considered harmless at that point. Goku also require beerus to release the effect so it's not one of goku's feats.

[dbgtFO]

He honestly doesnt even remember his own series.....not even the most smallest parts.

Would you easily remember the entirety of a story you completed almost 20 years ago? Particularly details about secondary aspects (like power level numbers) that you never needed to give a lot of thought?

Yes actually I can.

I think it's easy for us fans, as our fandom naturally compels us to have a huge interest in the story and for some of his, even small details from DB aren't easily forgotten, because we've invested so much time in it and genuinely enjoy the franchise.
For Toriyama it was different.. Although he has recently made it clear he's back to enjoying DB, it wasn't always like that, as it was his job and he didn't really enjoy it all the time, so small details like the one we're discussing could easily have slipped his mind, when it wasn't something he would need to keep in mind later on.

As for 10x multiplier, I don't see the problem in SS being 200x base Goku/10x 20xKK Goku(ie. what he had been up to then), as miguelnova demonstrated. It makes good sense to me.

[Kamiccolo9]

He honestly doesnt even remember his own series.....not even the most smallest parts.

Would you easily remember the entirety of a story you completed almost 20 years ago? Particularly details about secondary aspects (like power level numbers) that you never needed to give a lot of thought?

Yes actually I can.

Your profile says that you're 19. If your memory is good enough to remember things from before you were even born, you need to get yourself into some kind of study or something.

Until then, let's not make uninformed boasts on how we'd be better than somebody else at doing their own job.

[dario03]

Wasn't there just another thread talking about how some mangaka barely sleep the entire time they are working? Like Toriyama said he barely slept at all because of making the story, drawing, working with the editor, etc, etc. I guess that would make remembering every detail about a story that you wrote for over a decade a little hard even if it hadn't been over 20 years ago.

[Hitiro]

Full power because they stated so?
Naruto can state he can bust a universe is that a fact?
If
Ichigo states HE can beat goku is that a fact?
Character statements self-claimed or not SHOULDNT be taken as fact until proven.

That is simply preposterous. If a character states they are at full power that should be taken as it is unless we have dialogue or other material elsewhere disproving it. It would be a fact until it is disproven in this regard.

It is occam's razor. The theory or viewpoint with the least amount of assumptions is usually the right one. If a character states he is using full power and then you're making the assumption that they aren't then you're theory is using one more assumption than just adhering with the context of the characters line.

So what you should be saying is this line holds up unless proven wrong. Not the other way around.

[rereboy]

Your profile says that you're 19. If your memory is good enough to remember things from before you were even born, you need to get yourself into some kind of study or something.

Until then, let's not make uninformed boasts on how we'd be better than somebody else at doing their own job.

Honestly, it's not hard at all to be much better than Toriyama at remembering his own series. There's not a single author that I can think of at the moment that isn't better at that than Toriyama. It doesn't mean that they will remember every single detail of it, but better than Toriyama? Easily.

[theherodjl]

]If Goku could use Kaio-ken on top of SSJ then he would have demolished Freeza rather than having a fairly close fight If you think 28x is a good multiplier for SSJ then he could just do Kaio-ken x2 and be 64x stronger than base which would be much stronger than Freeza. If you put his SSJ transformation down to 10 he can still amplify it by 10x safely. Making his power 100x base and that would again put him massively higher than Freeza. Freeza comfortably transitioned up to 70% of his power before he showed any sort of charging that would place him even with Trunks if SSJ was a multiplier of 28x and Trunks had a battle power of 3 million. But that is purely even with Pre-Mecha Freeza, Freeza gained enough of a power-up he thought that Goku would have been defeated with. So his 70% is clearly already greater than this. And in all likelihood Trunks was weaker than 3 million if Goku hasn't improved and was still able to demonstrate that effortless defense he did against Trunks. And to be fair nobody is going to say "He's at half power." Only the character demonstrating their power can state something like that. The only thing other characters can really say is "He's not using his full power." or "He is using his full power." They can't gauge stuff like who's using half of their power. The story practically shows us this numerous times that a character can't discern how much power a character can output until they output their maximum.

Ok? What's the point here?
Freeza could go from his initial power to 50% then to 70% power faster than charging to 100% but it's not like he did it in a single second, even when he went to 50% he still took at least several seconds to reach any of those levels of power because Goku sat by and allowed him to do so.
Mecha Freeza showed no apparent increase in strength over his original body despite claiming to have, that's probably just because he didn't bother to show this newfound strength which makes the case of him staying considerably suppressed more likely.
Base Trunks also was about as strong as Base Goku was after he was exhausted and bruised up a bit from the Kaio-ken x20 and Genki Dama charge, if Goku was refreshed he would no doubt be stronger than Trunks as well as the fact that Goku stated that Trunks wasn't giving it his all when he blocked his sword strikes.
Gohan clearly knows how strong Freeza's half power is including his power after being hit by the Genki Dama and he doesn't state anything about Freeza being anywhere near his power on Namek just that he can increase it significantly higher, I think we can take all this to mean Mecha Freeza suppressed himself to a level lower than a 28x increase from Base Trunks.

[Hitiro]

Ok? What's the point here?
Freeza could go from his initial power to 50% then to 70% power faster than charging to 100% but it's not like he did it in a single second, even when he went to 50% he still took at least several seconds to reach any of those levels of power because Goku sat by and allowed him to do so.

This is incorrect, Freeza was already at 70% before Goku sat by and allowed him to charge his Ki.

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P14.3
Context: after blasting Goku into the sea
Freeza: "Fu... fuhahahaha...!! You underestimated me!! Just so you know, that right now still wasn't my full power!! It was only about 70 percent..."

He starts charging up his Ki in the next chapter and he pretty much says it will take him no more than 30 seconds to reach his maximum.

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P1.3
Freeza: “I’ll settle this at full power. It’ll take 1 minute…No, 30 seconds…”

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P2.4
Context: as Freeza powers up
Goku: “His ki is swelling up and becoming full…So he’s finally bringing out this ‘100% power’ thing of his, huh?...”

Mecha Freeza showed no apparent increase in strength over his original body despite claiming to have, that's probably just because he didn't bother to show this newfound strength which makes the case of him staying considerably suppressed more likely.

The issue is even if you say that the increase in power is still going to affect what the percentage of power is going to represent for him. For instance his previous 70% may be more like 50% now if his power had increased by that much. Or his previous 100% may be his current 70% as Mecha Freeza. We can't say that he showed no apparent increase in strength over his original body because he didn't really get a chance to demonstrate anything. He got off one attack before being cut to pieces.

Base Trunks also was about as strong as Base Goku was after he was exhausted and bruised up a bit from the Kaio-ken x20 and Genki Dama charge, if Goku was refreshed he would no doubt be stronger than Trunks as well as the fact that Goku stated that Trunks wasn't giving it his all when he blocked his sword strikes.

Base Trunks is stronger than Base Goku with his battle damage on Namek. Otherwise it wouldn't make much sense that Goku could only fight fairly even with Freeza and yet Trunks practically annihilated a powered-up Freeza on Earth. In fact I would go so far as to say that 100% Freeza was slightly superior to Goku at the start of the fight. But then the energy burn turned the tables.

Gohan clearly knows how strong Freeza's half power is including his power after being hit by the Genki Dama and he doesn't state anything about Freeza being anywhere near his power on Namek just that he can increase it significantly higher, I think we can take all this to mean Mecha Freeza suppressed himself to a level lower than a 28x increase from Base Trunks.

Freeza had to output more than 50% to combat Goku's Kamehameha and Freeza states that he is at 70% after Goku turns SSJ. Gohan also clearly knows how strong Freeza's full power is as he is still on Namek at the time Freeza reaches 100% so all we can infer from this is that Freeza never outputs what was originally 100% for him prior to his Mecha upgrade. He could still be outputting 70%+ and for him to be in the realm of utterly destroying Trunks if the SSJ multiplier is only a 28x increase then all Freeza would have to output is 87.5% of his original power.