Cels vs. Digital Animation

[Kamiccolo9]

That site just makes my antivirus go crazy. I'm not going in there.

As for the whole "animation isn't moving" thing, look at the word. "Animation." Root Word:Animate. Definition:To Move.

You are thinking of art style. Animation concerns with movement. That's literally what the word means.

[rereboy]

JUST?! That's insulting. Animators do more then just move. They design, they move, they color, they draw. It's more then just moving pictures. The animation team

Makes a design/concept art

draws them

colors it

make it move. Aniamtion is more then just movement. Why do you think people say episode 5 had bad animation when the characters drawings were so off?

That's a very narrow demeaning point of view.

You are confusing things.

Manga and comics have art, color (sometimes), design, aesthetic sense, composition, etc. But are they animations? Are they animated? No, they are not. Why? Because they don't move.

Animation is movement. Everything else is everything else. You, like a lot of people, are just grouping everything under animation incorrectly.

As for how things look overall, a lot more than animation influences that. Something can have amazing animation but simply not look good to us because the other elements (color, composition, art, aesthetic sense, ...) look bad to us and this is certainly subjective. However, imo, it's clear that the examples posted beat the image you posted in every regard and almost all of Toei's dragon ball.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

That site just makes my antivirus go crazy. I'm not going in there.

As for the whole "animation isn't moving" thing, look at the word. "Animation." Root Word:Animate. Definition:To Move.

You are thinking of art style. Animation concerns with movement. That's literally what the word means.

I didn't say it isn't move .I said it isn't JUST movement. you guys are thinking of it as a process, not a career or what the animation is. Who takes care of the art? Oh yeah the animation team.

JUST?! That's insulting. Animators do more then just move. They design, they move, they color, they draw. It's more then just moving pictures. The animation team

Makes a design/concept art

draws them

colors it

make it move. Aniamtion is more then just movement. Why do you think people say episode 5 had bad animation when the characters drawings were so off?

That's a very narrow demeaning point of view.

You are confusing things.

Manga and comics have art, color (sometimes), design, aesthetic sense, composition, etc. But are they animations? Are they animated? No, they are not. Why? Because they don't move.

Animation is movement. Everything else is everything else. You, like a lot of people, are just grouping everything under animation incorrectly.

As for how things look overall, a lot more than animation influences that. Something can have amazing animation but simply not look good to us because the other elements (color, composition, art, aesthetic sense, ...) look bad to us and this is certainly subjective. However, imo, it's clear that the examples posted beat the image you posted in every regard and almost all of Toei's dragon ball.

At this point we just gotta agree to disagree. This is going nowhere and disagreeing with you guys and supplying facts won't sway you, you won't sway me. All I can do now is disagree with you to no avail. All I would do is annoy and that's not my intent. Let's agree we have two different definitions of animation and what's good animation and just enjoy dragonball. Good day to you.

[JulieYBM]

That Mori Hisashi fight scene from the Tenth Anniversary movie has more background animation than I can remember in any of the other older movies. The level of ambition puts everything else to shame.

Anyway, cel animation definitely has its limits. Oohira Shinya once turned in animation that had so many layers it was impossible to film. Animation literally too good.

Computers and tablets have also made it easier than ever to become a hand-drawn animation animator at home, too. It's how we got the greats, like Sawa Ryoo-chimo, Kutsuna Ken'ichi, Yamashita Shingo and a ton of others, including the young Austrian animator BajiJD to join the commercial industry.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

That Mori Hisashi fight scene from the Tenth Anniversary movie has more background animation than I can remember in any of the other older movies. The level of ambition puts everything else to shame.

Anyway, cel animation definitely has its limits. Oohira Shinya once turned in animation that had so many layers it was impossible to film. Animation literally too good.

Computers and tablets have also made it easier than ever to become a hand-drawn animation animator at home, too. It's how we got the greats, like Sawa Ryoo-chimo, Kutsuna Ken'ichi, Yamashita Shingo and a ton of others, including the young Austrian animator BajiJD to join the commercial industry.

When I see digital animation, it al looks way to similar. That's something I don't like. But looney tunes/ Disney and dragonball never looked like they were done by the same people. However super and Naruto all have way to similar colors. All bright and shiny and clean looking. Nothing looks right. It pulls me out from it. I wish digital could replicate cels but it just doesn't.

[VegettoEX]

I wish digital could replicate cels but it just doesn't.

It absolutely can. You're just looking at cheaply-produced, weekly children's shows.

See, maybe: Redline

[JulieYBM]

I guess I'll be that asshole who never thought Redline looked very good. Koike works far better merely as a TV animator and not a director or animation supervisor. That shading he employs is ugly as all-get-out.

I'm a big fan of what Shinkai Makoto is doing with post-processing in his work. The Crossroad commercial he did features some absolutely gorgeous attention to detail. I love how you can add 'camera grain' or 'dust' to the image digitally, it really shakes up the mood when applied mid-way through a work, too. This technique was used in Naruto Shippuuden Opening #15, too.

[rereboy]

I didn't say it isn't move .I said it isn't JUST movement. you guys are thinking of it as a process, not a career or what the animation is. Who takes care of the art? Oh yeah the animation team.

The guys who come up with the designs aren't technically animators, they are designers or artists. The guys who come up with the colors and shadings, aren't technically animators, they are colorists. And so on.

You are the one who is thinking that the animation process is all there is to an anime and that all the people that work in it are animators. There are lots of phases and different jobs done in an animated production and lots of that isn't technically animation, it's stuff that will be put in the animation (aka design, art, color, composition, etc).

In short, you are still confusing things.

At this point we just gotta agree to disagree. This is going nowhere and disagreeing with you guys and supplying facts won't sway you, you won't sway me.

What are you disagreeing with? That things that have absolutely no animation, like manga and comics, have color, art style, aesthetic sense, composition, and so on, meaning that they are different things? That's undeniable.

You can disagree with anything you like but here you are disagreeing with facts, as you put it.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

I guess I'll be that asshole who never thought Redline looked very good. Koike works far better merely as a TV animator and not a director or animation supervisor. That shading he employs is ugly as all-get-out.

I'm a big fan of what Shinkai Makoto is doing with post-processing in his work. The Crossroad commercial he did features some absolutely gorgeous attention to detail. I love how you can add 'camera grain' or 'dust' to the image digitally, it really shakes up the mood when applied mid-way through a work, too. This technique was used in Naruto Shippuuden Opening #15, too.

You're not a asshole for having an opinion. It's only if you attack vegito for liking it or bash it to piss him off, which you're not so it's fine. I don't think it looks good either. I also find it funny apparently he knows what shows I watch and that they're all kiddy. Rick and morty is a kid's show now I guess. Who knew?

In fact I'll name a kids show with good animation. Courage the cowardly dog! That looks grand. The old Looney Tunes, while not made for kids in the 50's and such are well...REALLY REALLY beautiful looking!

I didn't say it isn't move .I said it isn't JUST movement. you guys are thinking of it as a process, not a career or what the animation is. Who takes care of the art? Oh yeah the animation team.

The guys who come up with the designs aren't technically animators, they are designers or artists. The guys who come up with the colors and shadings, aren't technically animators, they are colorists. And so on.

You are the one who is thinking that the animation process is all there is to an anime and that all the people that work in it are animators. There are lots of phases and different jobs done in an animated production and lots of that isn't technically animation, it's stuff that will be put in the animation (aka design, art, color, composition, etc).

In short, you are still confusing things.

At this point we just gotta agree to disagree. This is going nowhere and disagreeing with you guys and supplying facts won't sway you, you won't sway me.

What are you disagreeing with? That things that have absolutely no animation, like manga and comics, have color, art style, aesthetic sense, composition, and so on, meaning that they are different things? That's undeniable.

You can disagree with anything you like but here you are disagreeing with facts, as you put it.

I don't think you grasp the whole agree to disagree thing. I don't wanna talk to you about this anymore because in my mind it's going nowhere. I mean no disrespect so take NONE, however I do think you're wrong and saying so more and more only seams like it'd be something that'd annoy your and bore me. I want neither one so again, good day sir. You have your opinion and your stance and I got nothing against it. I don't agree but I don't have to.

[ABED]

I love older animation, but one of the problems with it is (as far as I have seen) is that it's easier with cell animation to be "off model". It happened numerous times on Batman: The animated series. There would also be a weird rubbery quality to some things that should be solid. For instance, I remember at least one time where the batmobile turns a corner and bends when the car should stay straight and solid.

[rereboy]

I don't think you grasp the whole agree to disagree thing. I don't wanna talk to you about this anymore because in my mind it's going nowhere.

Not wanting to talk anymore is not the same as not agreeing. And you are not disagreeing with just an opinion, you are disagreeing with the definition of what animation is and with the fact that manga and comics don't have animation but still have art style, composition, color and so on. Instead of insisting on your preconception of the subject you would do better in reflecting in what I asked you even if you don't answer me.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

I love older animation, but one of the problems with it is (as far as I have seen) is that it's easier with cell animation to be "off model". It happened numerous times on Batman: The animated series. There would also be a weird rubbery quality to some things that should be solid. For instance, I remember at least one time where the batmobile turns a corner and bends when the car should stay straight and solid.

I don't think Batman TAS was off model a lot. It had animation mistakes yeah but for the most part it was superb. I like how it was on black paper to give it a darker background. Nice unique touch. Found that out from the batman TAS animation guide book. Used to be dirt cheap but now....yikes. It's like daizenshuu a few years ago! Worth it though.

Cel animation is harder to color though, as digital you just can click and make everything in a certain erea instantly a color. Must faster and cheaper, but it leaves to clean an effect if you know what I mean.

I don't think you grasp the whole agree to disagree thing. I don't wanna talk to you about this anymore because in my mind it's going nowhere.

Not wanting to talk anymore is not the same as not agreeing. And you are not disagreeing with just an opinion, you are disagreeing with the definition of what animation is and with the fact that manga and comics don't have animation but still have art style, composition, color and so on. Instead of insisting on your preconception of the subject you would do better in reflecting in what I asked you even if you don't answer me.

You're right it's not the same, but I'm doing both. Actually you're the one disagreeing with the definition. I know what I'm talking about, trust me. We've reach a dead end in this conversation and I don't know why you keep coming back to it, I don't wanna just be rude and disrespectful to you and just plain out ignore you, however at this point after saying I don't wanna talk about it for THIRD time, I will just ignore your response about it. Wanna talk about something else? That's fine but please respect I just don't wish don't talk about this further with you. I'm shaking my head at what I'm reading and I can only guess you are at what I'm saying.

There's literally no point in just disagreeing back and forth as I said. We both think each other are wrong. So unless you wanna change the subject, good bye. Have a nice day.

[VegettoEX]

I know what I'm talking about, trust me.

This is the problem: you really don't. This is the equivalent of someone looking at an apple and saying, "This is an orange. I'm an expert in oranges; trust me." You then come back time and time again to say the same things over and over, tell people you're agreeing to disagree (that's not what that means), and faux-politely tell them you're not interested in discussing with them so could you please stop talking back to me. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

I know what I'm talking about, trust me.

This is the problem: you really don't. This is the equivalent of someone looking at an apple and saying, "This is an orange. I'm an expert in oranges; trust me." You then come back time and time again to say the same things over and over, tell people you're agreeing to disagree (that's not what that means), and faux-politely tell them you're not interested in discussing with them so could you please stop talking back to me. Wash, rinse, repeat.

What? Look at the messages. I only came back when he replied to me. I said let's agree to disagree and left. He responded and a reiterated. HE responded and I reiterated saying if he responds again I'd not respond.

I'm honestly thinking you're just trolling me now for shits and giggles. Because I'm right on this and probably read up on this stuff more then all you guys put together. Furthermore when you says "You did this and that's bad" it's completely based on nothing. Literally anyone who looks at the last 3 posts sees I wasn't coming back to it. The other guy kept up the topic and I THEN I responded I don't wanna walk about it anymore. Either you keep skimming and mis reading or you are porously fucking with me. IF you're not then re read what I said. The evidence is all there. If you're just screwing with me good show. I honestly didn't catch on til now.

Anyways I'm leaving this thread now. Getting in trouble with a mod for....literally nothing...along with it going nowhere in this conversation. People don't seam to know what animation is by definition and have a different taste then I do. I'm the odd one here, but I respect other's tastes, even if I have much different preferences. So enjoy the discussion ya'll. It's definitely a good one brought up but if I stay I don't see anything good coming from it

[Soppa Saia People]

I know what I'm talking about, trust me.

This is the problem: you really don't. This is the equivalent of someone looking at an apple and saying, "This is an orange. I'm an expert in oranges; trust me." You then come back time and time again to say the same things over and over, tell people you're agreeing to disagree (that's not what that means), and faux-politely tell them you're not interested in discussing with them so could you please stop talking back to me. Wash, rinse, repeat.

What? Look at the messages. I only came back when he replied to me. I said let's agree to disagree and left. He responded and a reiterated. HE responded and I reiterated saying if he responds again I'd not respond.

I'm honestly thinking you're just trolling me now for shits and giggles. Because I'm right on this and probably read up on this stuff more then all you guys put together. Furthermore when you says "You did this and that's bad" it's completely based on nothing. Literally anyone who looks at the last 3 posts sees I wasn't coming back to it. The other guy kept up the topic and I THEN I responded I don't wanna walk about it anymore. Either you keep skimming and mis reading or you are porously fucking with me. IF you're not then re read what I said. The evidence is all there. If you're just screwing with me good show. I honestly didn't catch on til now.

Anyways I'm leaving this thread now. Getting in trouble with a mod for....literally nothing...along with it going nowhere in this conversation. People don't seam to know what animation is by definition and have a different taste then I do. I'm the odd one here, but I respect other's tastes, even if I have much different preferences. So enjoy the discussion ya'll. It's definitely a good one brought up but if I stay I don't see anything good coming from it

I'm pretty sure JulieYBM works in the animation industry. And so what you studied animation as you've proven you still don't know what you're talking about.

[Ajay]

Anyways I'm leaving this thread now. Getting in trouble with a mod for....literally nothing...along with it going nowhere in this conversation. People don't seam to know what animation is by definition and have a different taste then I do. I'm the odd one here, but I respect other's tastes, even if I have much different preferences. So enjoy the discussion ya'll. It's definitely a good one brought up but if I stay I don't see anything good coming from it

No, you're constantly chatting out of your ass and not listening to what other people have to say. You've got a wildly uninformed point of view, but you seem to think that's an opinion, so you're putting your fingers in your ears and playing the victim. You're the odd one out here because you're the ignorant outlier on a forum of people who do understand what they're talking about. You're being deliberately obtuse, and you can see it's starting to piss people off. That's for a very good reason. Listen to what people are saying to you and you might actually learn something.

[Basaku]

I'm just gonna say this - traditional 'analog' cell animation involves so many tiny imperfections and "mistakes" at every step of the process that it will be inherently distinguishable to many people senstive to it and seen as much more raw and natural art than digital process. Those 'mistakes' can be simulated nowadays in digital process if that's the art-direction and the desire of the creators, but whether that simulation is perfect and can replicate the exact nature of human hand (particularly when it comes to coloring) and analog equipement is highy debatable.

Everyone take a deep breath 'cause you all are starting to come off as rude IMO, mods, older and newer members included

[Lord Beerus]

I'm pretty sure JulieYBM works in the animation industry. And so what you studied animation as you've proven you still don't know what you're talking about.

JulieYBM doesn't work in the animation industry. He just knows a lot of information about how the animation industry works.

[Mosaic]

^Most of those are masked to death with CGI effects. The nude girl running is pretty cool, but everything else isn't anything really mind blowing.

That being said, I'm for cel all the way. Digital has come along way, but still lacks the warmth and beauty of cel animation. And in the case of Dragon Ball, they still have issues adapting color schemes with new technology. I'm surprised nobody ever complains about the yellowish tint Piccolo has now.

[ParkerAL]

When I see digital animation, it al looks way to similar. That's something I don't like. But looney tunes/ Disney and dragonball never looked like they were done by the same people. However super and Naruto all have way to similar colors. All bright and shiny and clean looking. Nothing looks right. It pulls me out from it. I wish digital could replicate cels but it just doesn't.

Compare Space Dandy to The Tale of Princess Kaguya

Or using western examples, compare Batman vs Robin with Song of the Sea and Adventure Time. Digitial animation can look like anything depending on the color palette and filters used.