Worst point in the series ?

[sintzu]

most of pre z DB if we're talking canon

This statement requieres an indepth explanation.

I think he means he doesn't like the DB section of the story (Pilaf to Piccolo JR).

[precita]

Goku fighting Buyon or whatever his name was in Muscle Tower. A whole episode. Why.

[Kuririn Fan]

most of pre z DB if we're talking canon

This statement requieres an indepth explanation.

I think he means he doesn't like the DB section of the story (Pilaf to Piccolo JR).

Yeah, but why? That's all great stuff!

[sintzu]

Yeah, but why? That's all great stuff!

Maybe he watched Z 1st and waited a long time before watching DB so he's to used to Z's tone and fights to enjoy DB.

[shinmaru]

Dragon Ball Super is the worst for me because everything feels out of place.
Super is the first Dragon Ball that doesn't feel as DB at all

[sintzu]

Dragon Ball Super is the worst for me because everything feels out of place.
Super is the first Dragon Ball that doesn't feel as DB at all

It's more DB then Gt was.

[Kuririn Fan]

Dragon Ball Super is the worst for me because everything feels out of place.
Super is the first Dragon Ball that doesn't feel as DB at all

It's more DB then Gt was.

Agreed.

[Gorou]

I did not understand if here, with "worst point", you want intend the part subjectively least favorite , or the objectively more ugly and senseless.

Objectively speaking, if you want to also include GT, the lowest and foolish point is the Super 17 saga.

[ekrolo2]

A more detailed list than my last attempt:

Dragon Ball - The Red Ribbon Army Saga. Besides sporting a lot fantastic art and a pretty fine climax with Goku meeting Gohan, this whole thing is relentlessly boring. It doesn't have the same sense of adventure as the Hunt arc, Goku is WAY too powerful which is a problem with the 21st Budokai and the humor isn't good enough to compensate for these problems.

Z - The Ginyu Force sub-saga. I know a lot of people like these guys and they're admittedly more memorable than the rest of Freeza's army but besides Guldo and Ginyu, none of them offer any interesting abilities and they just feel like a rush of mini-bosses designed to beat everyone up so they can power up some more. The entire Android Saga with the exception of Cell's introduction and Goku vs Cell is a mess of horrible contrivances and forced characterization with the entire islands section a perfect example of the Z era becoming a parody of itself.

GT - The early Baby Saga, as in before it comes back to Earth, is pretty boring for, particularly Goku vs Rild. I know a lot would put the Super 17 arc but that arc fulfils its function just fine. It's a quick catastrophe that's there to mess up the planet some more so they need to summon Shenron and kick off the Shadow Dragons arc.

Super - The movie re-tellings. If I could erase one thing from the franchise it would be these wastes of time.

[Gorou]

Objectively, the Super 17 saga is full of net inconsistencies and illogical choices.

- Cyborgs have Ki
- Gero and Myuu build another 17 in hell (how? by what means?)
- All villain maintain their body in hell
- Appear also Movie villains
- Goku is a total idiot who press to launch the same attacks on Super 17
- Ultimate technique of Cell and Frieza consists to leave freeze Goku by an old woman


Objectively, If this is not the worst point ..

One day i'll debunking even the myth of "excessive stupidity of the characters" in arc of islands, that everyone mentions.

[Lord Beerus]

Dragon Ball Super is the worst for me because everything feels out of place.
Super is the first Dragon Ball that doesn't feel as DB at all

It's more DB then Gt was.

Agreed.

Thirded

[ekrolo2]

Objectively, the Super 17 saga is full of net inconsistencies and illogical choices.

- Cyborgs have Ki
- Gero and Myuu build another 17 in hell (how? by what means?)
- All villain maintain their body in hell
- Appear also Movie villains
- Goku is a total idiot who press to launch the same attacks on Super 17
- Ultimate technique of Cell and Frieza consists to leave freeze Goku by an old woman


Objectively, If this is not the worst point ..

One day i'll debunking even the myth of "excessive stupidity of the characters" in arc of islands, that everyone mentions.

- Cyborgs HAVE energy
- As you say later, villains, even mechanical ones retain their bodies in hell, they easily could've gotten some from them and patched them together to create Hell Fighter 17.
- This is the anime continuity, so them retaining their bodies and the appearance of movie villains isn't really an issue.
- Goku's tactic is fine. The last time he fought someone who could supposedly devour energy was Yakon and Goku made him blow up by overloading him. There's no reason for him not to try that tactic again for someone who basically functions the same way.
- This is subjective but I like the torture tour idea and having Goku get subjected to it.

As for the island arc, Vegeta's stupidity and Trunks' naivety aren't really the problems nor is stupidity the main one even if it is present. Vegeta's Saiyan traits, already prevalent become worse from attaining Super Saiyan so he's arguably the sole character who's foolishness has some excuse to it. Piccolo and Krillin don't get a free pass.

Piccolo can sense ki and he should clearly be able to tell his Flash Grenade cannot hurt Cell, so he should've just fired it at 17 in a last-ditch attempt to try and kill him. With 17 gone, Cell wouldn't be able to attain perfection. For the sake of the arc progressing, you can have Piccolo fire it at him and simply have Cell smack it away. Same arc happens with less stupidity.

Krillin's the same thing. Instead of having him outright destroy the remote, you have him save it just in case, try to help 17 and 16 and when it becomes clear Cell is gonna absorb her, have him take it out, hesitate for killing someone who hasn't done anything wrong and then have Cell snatch it from his hands and crush it. Same scene, same impact, less stupid.

[Gorou]

- Cyborgs HAVE energy

Ki is not energy.
(manga in the hand) No, they do not.

As you say later, villains, even mechanical ones retain their bodies in hell, they easily could've gotten some from them and patched them together to create Hell Fighter 17.

All this is in complete contrast with the manga.
Moreover, the hell, in that filler, is represented as an endless and obscure land (where they got the materials?).

- This is the anime continuity, so them retaining their bodies and the appearance of movie villains isn't really an issue.

Movie villains are not in continuity even in the anime.

- Goku's tactic is fine . The last time he fought someone who could supposedly devour energy was Yakon and Goku made him blow up by overloading him. There's no reason for him not to try that tactic again for someone who basically functions the same way.

Goku's tactic is awfully stupid. He has already faced androids of that type and knows perfectly that they do not explode, as Yakon, but that become more stronger, taking energy from the blast. In addition, with Yakon he has only used his Ki.

As for the island arc, Vegeta's stupidity and Trunks' naivety aren't really the problems nor is stupidity the main one even if it is present. Vegeta's Saiyan traits, already prevalent become worse from attaining Super Saiyan so he's arguably the sole character who's foolishness has some excuse to it. Piccolo and Krillin don't get a free pass.

Sure. The choice of Vegeta is intentional and perfectly in character.
He does not fight to save Earth, but only for himself.

Piccolo can sense ki and he should clearly be able to tell his Flash Grenade cannot hurt Cell

Not necessarily. We have seen, on several occasions, that very concentrated attacks, such as Makankosappo, may injure or possibly kill a much stronger opponent.
Piccolo has underestimated the strength of Cell that, on the other hand, as is clearly seen in the manga, has raised his ki at the last moment.

, so he should've just fired it at 17 in a last-ditch attempt to try and kill him

17 could dodge.
Cell, however, was still motionless, a few feet from him.
It was better to try to kill the most dangerous enemy.

Krillin's the same thing. Instead of having him outright destroy the remote, you have him save it just in case, try to help 17 and 16 and when it becomes clear Cell is gonna absorb her, have him take it out, hesitate for killing someone who hasn't done anything wrong and then have Cell snatch it from his hands and crush it. Same scene, same impact, less stupid.

That decision is perfectly contextualized.
We already knew that he had a crush on 18 (several times, previously, the thing is underlined in the manga) and that he would not kill her.
Moreover, Krillin, at that moment, he could not see Cell, which was losing against Vegeta, like an unstoppable threat, and imagining that Cell could be destroyed at any moment, killed by the prince, he considered it appropriate that it was not necessary to kill her.
Probably, if he had known Vegeta's intentions, he would pressed the button.

Then, we are talking about the same person who has spared the life of a murderer monster like Vegeta (which he hated) just because Goku had asked. It is so stupid that he decides to save someone he loves, who has never killed anyone?

[ekrolo2]

All this is in complete contrast with the manga.
Moreover hell filler is represented as an endless desert and obscure land (where they got the materials?)

This isn't a sequel to the manga, it's to the anime. Also, every one of the robotic villains has parts and components they can easily rip out of one another or even use Rildo's shape-shifting ability to build whatever they want. They can take off Major Metalitron's finger and turn it into a wrench for example.

The villain of the Movie are not in continuity even in the anime.

Tell that to Garlic Jr, regardless, the others are just cameo's. It's not like there's a whole bit where Cooler outright takes over a whole episode for himself and openly talks about his own death in the Cooler films.

Goku's tactic is awfully stupid. He has already faced androids of that type and know perfectly well that they do not explode, as Yakon, and olny become more stronger and taking energy from the blast. In addition, with Yakon he has only used his Ki.

Goku never poured much power into an Android to even see if this is possible and neither did the others. With Yakon, he faced someone who functioned fundamentally the same way and blew up once Goku put enough power into him. Even if a machine can handle more, it'll blow the hell up if you do the same to it. So his tactic is perfectly sensible for me.

Not necessarily. We have seen, on several occasions, that very concentrated attacks, such as Makankosappo, may injure or possibly kill a much stronger opponent.
Piccolo has underestimated the strength of Cell that, on the other hand, as is clearly seen in the manga, has raised his ki last moment.

The problem is that the story isn't treating Cell like he's somewhat above Piccolo so he could have reasonable ground to even think his attack can work. Nor does Cell ever, in any way, indicate that he's purposefully powering down to let him think he's got a chance. Piccolo's just stupidly wasting an attack he can clearly sense won't work.

He could dodge.
Cell instead it was nice to stop in front of him,
It was better to try to kill the most dangerous enemy,

Doesn't matter if 17 can dodge, he should've still tried. Better to pour all your power into an enemy you know you're already stalemating and have at least a chance of killing rather than a guy who tank tank your hit and is clearly showing you he's got the power to do it. If it works, you've successfully defanged Cell and removed him as a threat now that he can never before Perfect. It's not like Piccolo went into this fight expecting to make it out alive so he might as well go out laughing and flipping Cell off with his last breaths.

That decision is well contextualized.
We already knew that he had a crush on 18 (several times a thing is underlined) and that he would not kill her.
Moreover, Krillin, at that moment, he could not see Cell, which was losing against Vegeta, like an unstoppable threat, and imagining that Cell could be destroyed at any moment, killed by the prince, he considered it appropriate that it was not necessary to kill her.
Probably, if he had known of Vegeta's intentions, hu would pressed the button.

Then, we are talking about the same person who has spared the life of a murderer monster like Vegeta (which he hated) just because Goku had asked. It is so stupid that he decides to save someone he loves, who has never killed anyone?

Krillin's crush on 18 is one of the most mind-numbingly retarded things in the entire franchise right up there with him sparing Vegeta who he was 100% justified in wanting to kill. Both events are AWFUL moments for his character.

Going back to the scene at hand, Krillin should also know that Cell has a bunch of tricks up his sleeve like their various abilities and techniques which he can whip out at any moment to turned the tide to his favor. He also knows Vegeta has pretty much lost his marbles, becoming even more dangerous and unpredictable after attaining Super Saiyan and likely even worse now after his ROSAT training.

There is no reason for Krillin to destroy the remote nor does him keeping it make him into a cold-hearted bastard, it just means he's keeping every available option open to prevent Cell from attaining Perfection. As I wrote above, him keeping the remote then hesitating to use it because he doesn't want to murder someone who's the hunted victim only for Cell to snatch it out of his hand and break it instead fixes all of these problems. Krillin looks less like a selfish idiot and the narrative can pretty much happen the exact same way minus the stupid.

[Gorou]

This isn't a sequel to the manga, it's to the anime. Also, every one of the robotic villains has parts and components they can easily rip out of one another or even use Rildo's shape-shifting ability to build whatever they want. They can take off Major Metalitron's finger and turn it into a wrench for example.

Well, what I take the exam is always and only the original work. Fillers are 90% pure nonsense, not deserving of attention, as most of GT (to my)

17 is not only entirely artificial, but also human. Where they retrieved the cells of 17, that was still alive?
The whole thing, I repeat, it is stupid and in stark contract with the manga. The fact that it is tied to the anime filler does not make it less stupid, because in the same souls are told that the bad guys do not have a body. Is a contradiction, and as such should be treated

Tell that to Garlic Jr, regardless, the others are just cameo's. It's not like there's a whole bit where Cooler outright takes over a whole episode for himself and openly talks about his own death in the Cooler films.

Both movies of Cooler collide with manga and anime.
Cooler can not be inserted in the official story, without creating contradictions.

Goku never poured much power into an Android to even see if this is possible and neither did the others. With Yakon, he faced someone who functioned fundamentally the same way and blew up once Goku put enough power into him. Even if a machine can handle more, it'll blow the hell up if you do the same to it. So his tactic is perfectly sensible for me.

No, Yakon not became stronger aspirating the ki, like androids. He ate ki and swelled; it was clear that it would explode.
Goku's tactic continues to be incredibly stupid.
Two options: 1) use the physical blows, which in the past have worked 2) use energy shots, which in the past have made strongest the androids, with the vague hope that this one will overload and explode (something that never happened before).

The second is completely senseless.

Doesn't matter if 17 can dodge, he should've still tried. Better to pour all your power into an enemy you know you're already stalemating and have at least a chance of killing rather than a guy who tank tank your hit and is clearly showing you he's got the power to do it. If it works, you've successfully defanged Cell and removed him as a threat now that he can never before Perfect. It's not like Piccolo went into this fight expecting to make it out alive so he might as well go out laughing and flipping Cell off with his last breaths.

Admitted that he would hit (not sure), and even admitted that he entirely destroyed it (even this not sure), what would change?
Cell would not become perfect, but he still remained an unstoppable monster, that he could still absorb 18 and becoming even more stronger.

So Piccolo (who did not know the strength of 16, nor the force that Trunks and Vegeta had obtained) would find himself still in a desperate situation.
So no, at that point, it made more sense groped for broke against Cell, which was still in front of him, with no intention of dodging and with lowered defenses (in the manga Cell does not have the ki when Piccolo charging the attack )

Krillin's crush on 18 is one of the most mind-numbingly retarded things in the entire franchise right up there with him sparing Vegeta who he was 100% justified in wanting to kill. Both events are AWFUL moments for his character.

Is not important the opinion that you have of these decisions. What matters for us is the internal consistency.

In fact, it is not the first time that Krilin, under pressure, has ended up making a terrible decision, at first view , so everything is perfectly consistent. There is no scandal stupidity in this .
On the contrary,i'm glad that Toriyama has given to his characters these "defects", rather than make them like automatons cold-blooded that follow only the mathematic logic, without being influenced by their feelings. That makes them more human in all aspects. Then, for me, the only true hero of the manga is Mirai Trunks.

Going back to the scene at hand, Krillin should also know that Cell has a bunch of tricks up his sleeve like their various abilities and techniques which he can whip out at any moment to turned the tide to his favor. He also knows Vegeta has pretty much lost his marbles, becoming even more dangerous and unpredictable after attaining Super Saiyan and likely even worse now after his ROSAT training.

He simply saw as Vegeta has destroyed, in all possible ways, Cell, who was furious and helpless. Then, he knew that there was also Trunks. De facto, Cell could die at any moment.
His threat persisted, but it was very resized, at that time.

Again, you claim too much rationality, too many logical analysis, by these characters. When and where, in the manga, we never saw Krillin make a similar intricate reasoning?
It was so smart, he would riddled Frieza of Kiezan, while transforming, and was unable to dodge (far more stupid, but nobody mentions it, for partisanship)

Then, it might handle it in the way you suggested, but that would make it only to your liking, and in no way less stupid, because that rash decision is consistent with the character and was contextualized.

The stupid actions, are other. They are those that the characters do not take despite not having any valid reason, such as: kami does not seal Piccolo, when it is passed out on the ground, but try to kill him (this is a stupid action)

[ekrolo2]

Well, what I take the exam is always and only the original work. Fillers are 90% pure nonsense, not deserving of attention, as most of GT (to my) 17 is not only entirely artificial, but also human. Where they retrieved the cells of 17, that was still alive?
The whole thing, I repeat, it is stupid and in stark contract with the manga. The fact that it is tied to the anime filler does not make it less stupid, because in the same souls are told that the bad guys do not have a body. Is a contradiction, and as such should be treated

It's not a contradiction since the anime clearly has the bad guys retain their bodies. Is it stupid and filler related? Sure. But it's consistent with how the ANIME continuity portrays the afterlife and as an ANIME sequel to the ANIME of Z, it's not a contradiction.

Cooler can not be inserted in the official story, without creating contradictions.

He's a cameo who's just there for window dressing. Saying he breaks everything is like saying the Resurrection F manga validates GT because there's a guy who looks exactly like Ledgic in Freeza's army.

No, Yakon not became stronger sucking the ki, like androids. He ate ki and swelled; it was clear that it would explode.
Goku's tactic continues to be incredibly stupid.
Two options: 1) use the physical blows, which in the past have worked 2) use energy shots, which in the past have made strongest the androids, with the vague hope that this one will overload and explode (something that never happened before).

The second is completely senseless.

The problem is that you're assuming the Androids can just infinitely absorb energy just because they've been shown absorbing them without difficulty. The problem is, this isn't a contradiction or a stupid, baseless tactic because we've never seen what happens when an Android takes a massive blast (Goku dying of heart cancer doesn't count, Piccolo comments paint him as a pale shadow of his true power). Even a reasonable person, much less Goku, would assume that after a while something would overload or break, especially Goku who managed to do the same to Yakon.

Admitted that he would hit (not sure), and even admitted that he entirely destroyed it (even this not sure), what would change?
Cell would not become perfect, but he still remained an unstoppable monster, that he could still absorb 18 and becoming even more stronger.

He could damage 17 to the point where Cell cannot properly transform because of it and halt his progress. And he wouldn't remain unstoppable, Vegeta would come out of the ROSAT shortly after and shove Cell's head so far up his ass he'd look like a character out of Uzumaki.

Is not important the opinion that you have of these decisions. What matters for us is the internal consistency.

In fact, it is not the first time that Krilin, under pressure, has ended up making a terrible decision, at first view , so everything is consistent.
I'm glad that Toriyama has given to his characters these "defects", rather than make them automatons cold-blooded that follow only the logic, without being influenced by their feelings. That makes them more human in all respects. Then, the only true hero of the manga, for me, is Mirai Trunks.

The problem is that Toriyama isn't making these defects for defects sake, it's there for contrivances. Pointless ones too since, as I said in my re-write of the scene, you can keep Krillin a flawed person who doesn't want to murder an innocent, hunted victim without making him throw away everyone's lives for a terrible romance. By having Krillin hold the remote in his hands as Cell approaches and still decide that he can't do it, you're showing us his humanity without making him a walking convenience for the plot to happen thanks to more idiot balling.

He simply saw as Vegeta has destroyed, in all possible ways, Cell, who was furious and helpless. Then, he knew that there was also Trunks. De facto, Cell could die at any moment.
His threat persisted, but it was very resized, at that time.
Again, you claim too much rationality, too many logical analysis, by these characters. When Krilin made a similar intricate reasoning?
It was so smart, he would riddled Frieza of Kiezan, while transforming.
Then, it might handle it in the way you suggested, but that would make it only to your liking, and in no way less stupid, because that rash decision is consistent with the character and was contextualized.
The stupid actions, are other. They are those that the characters do not take despite not having any valid reason, such as: kami does not seal Piccolo, when it is passed out on the ground, but try to kill him (this is a stupid action)

Ugh, don't mention the Freeza thing. I know that fight is iconic and under a certain light I can appreciate it but it started a LOT of awful tropes that Toriyama runs into the ground later on.

[precita]

There's still interesting Trunks/Vegeta stuff happening in the island portion of the Cell arc.

After Cell absorbs #18, though? That through the end of the arc is the only portion of the series that bores me in both the manga and anime.

Are you referring everything up until the end of the saga including the entire Cell games? Really? None of that was interesting to you?

[Gorou]

It's not a contradiction since the anime clearly has the bad guys retain their bodies. Is it stupid and filler related? Sure. But it's consistent with how the ANIME continuity portrays the afterlife and as an ANIME sequel to the ANIME of Z, it's not a contradiction.

Is a TOTAL contradiction in that, in the anime as in the manga, Piccolo clearly tells to Vegeta that the bad guys are not entitled to have a body.
The anime not only contradicts the manga, but also himself.

He's a cameo who's just there for window dressing. Saying he breaks everything is like saying the Resurrection F manga validates GT because there's a guy who looks exactly like Ledgic in Freeza's army.

The fact that it is a cameo does not make it less stupid. Then, i do not know what you think, but for me even ROF is a very stupid movie

The problem is that you're assuming the Androids can just infinitely absorb energy just because they've been shown absorbing them without difficulty. The problem is, this isn't a contradiction or a stupid, baseless tactic because we've never seen what happens when an Android takes a massive blast (Goku dying of heart cancer doesn't count, Piccolo comments paint him as a pale shadow of his true power). Even a reasonable person, much less Goku, would assume that after a while something would overload or break, especially Goku who managed to do the same to Yakon.

The problem is not what I assume, but what Goku assume.
On the one hand it is a real risk that the android becomes stronger, the other by a vague hope, based on nothing, that this can be overloading, when he could use his brain and avoid launching simultaneous energy attacks.
Moreover, this theory is baseless, since there are already cyborgs with infinity energy. Yakon It has nothing to do with them.

He could damage 17 to the point where Cell cannot properly transform because of it and halt his progress. And he wouldn't remain unstoppable, Vegeta would come out of the ROSAT shortly after and shove Cell's head so far up his ass he'd look like a character out of Uzumaki.

Wrong. This is your vision as reader who knows the history and all its implications, not the character vision .
Piccolo could not know that Vegeta would have gotten such a power ups, and for him it's hard to believe that he can defeat Cell, even after training, until they witness the battle with his eyes.

For all he knew, for him was wiser groped to kill Cell.

The problem is that Toriyama isn't making these defects for defects sake, it's there for contrivances. Pointless ones too since, as I said in my re-write of the scene, you can keep Krillin a flawed person who doesn't want to murder an innocent, hunted victim without making him throw away everyone's lives for a terrible romance. By having Krillin hold the remote in his hands as Cell approaches and still decide that he can't do it, you're showing us his humanity without making him a walking convenience for the plot to happen thanks to more idiot balling.

Both versions work. None of the two more stupid in any way.
Krilin decision to destroy the remove remains consistent with the character, not at all stupid, since, in the end, those who held the reins of the situation was still Vegeta.

Indeed, now that I reflect us better, your version shows a considerable lack of script, which would make impossible the scene.
This because is essential that Krilin throw the remote control on the ground by attracting the attention of 16 and 18, which otherwise would continue to watch Cell. If the two had continued to watch him, seeing him approaching, they would hide, so as to keep out of his sight.
So Toriyama has acted very well.

Ugh, don't mention the Freeza thing. I know that fight is iconic and under a certain light I can appreciate it but it started a LOT of awful tropes that Toriyama runs into the ground later on.

True, but even Goku vs Cell was a lovely moment (best moment of the saga of the androids imho) but you need to be objective, and be able to outline a little logical approach regardless of the saga, otherwise we are just not partial

[ekrolo2]

s a TOTAL contradiction in that, in the anime as in the manga, Piccolo clearly tells Vegeta that the wicked shall not be granted a body.
The anime not only contradicts the manga, but also himself.

Piccolo's comment is the one that doesn't make much sense in the anime since its pre-established there that villains do in fact retain their bodies thanks to the Otherworld saga but then again, this is me seeing that as completely remove from the manga as its own, continuity. Something you don't view in the same light.

The fact that it is a cameo does not make it less stupid. Then, you do not know what you think, but for me even ROF is a stupid movie

It's not a massive issue is my point since the story itself never tries to shoehorn the events of his stories into the anime, he's just there for a cameo. Oh and I know how awful Resurrection F is, I'm doing a while video analysis series bitching and moaning about it lol.

The problem is that you're assuming the Androids can just infinitely absorb energy just because they've been shown absorbing them without difficulty. The problem is, this isn't a contradiction or a stupid, baseless tactic because we've never seen what happens when an Android takes a massive blast (Goku dying of heart cancer doesn't count, Piccolo comments paint him as a pale shadow of his true power). Even a reasonable person, much less Goku, would assume that after a while something would overload or break, especially Goku who managed to do the same to Yakon.

The problem is not what I assume, but what Goku assume.
On the one hand it is a real risk that the android becomes stronger, the other by a vague hope, based on nothing, that this can be overloading, when he could use his brain and avoid launching simultaneous energy attacks.
Moreover, this theory is baseless, since there are already cyborgs with infinity energy. Yakon It has nothing to do with them.

It's not based on nothing but on common sense. He's already seen what happens when organic beings try to absorb power: they blow up. Even if a machine can absorb more, Goku thinking that him bombarding Super 17, as an SSJ4 no less would produce a similar result eventually. He simply underestimated his capacity for absorption but its not a baseless asumption at all.

He could damage 17 to the point where Cell cannot properly transform because of it and halt his progress. And he wouldn't remain unstoppable, Vegeta would come out of the ROSAT shortly after and shove Cell's head so far up his ass he'd look like a character out of Uzumaki.

Wrong. This is your vision as reader who knows the history and all its implications, not the character vision .
Piccolo could not know that Vegeta would have gotten such a power ups, and it's hard to believe that he can defeat Cell, even after training, until they witness the battle with his eyes.

For all he knew, he was wiser groped to kill Cell.

Piccolo knows Vegeta is in the ROSAT. Regardless if he's skeptical, he KNOWS he has a chance to take out 17 or at least damage him to a level where he might not be useful to Cell anymore. That is a lot better chance to take than to attack the guy who he knows he cannot possibly dent. Especially since Piccolo just fought 17 and can properly gauge who's likelier to get taken out by his Flash Grenade.

Ugh, don't mention the Freeza thing. I know that fight is iconic and under a certain light I can appreciate it but it started a LOT of awful tropes that Toriyama runs into the ground later on.

True, but even Goku vs Cell was a lovely moment (best moment of the saga of the androids imho) but you need to be objective, and be able to outline a little logical approach regardless of the saga, otherwise we are just biased.[/quote]

It's the only good moment of the Android Saga. Most of the other battles are either boring, one-sided curb stomps where either the hero completely dominates or the villain does. And usually the villain only wins the outcome from idiot balling.

[Gorou]

Piccolo's comment is the one that doesn't make much sense in the anime since its pre-established there that villains do in fact retain their bodies thanks to the Otherworld saga but then again, this is me seeing that as completely remove from the manga as its own, continuity. Something you don't view in the same light.

Piccolo's comment is confirmed, again in the anime as well, by King Yemma, who says he kept the body of Vegeta, making a huge exception for this.

It's not based on nothing but on common sense. He's already seen what happens when organic beings try to absorb power: they blow up. Even if a machine can absorb more, Goku thinking that him bombarding Super 17, as an SSJ4 no less would produce a similar result eventually. He simply underestimated his capacity for absorption but its not a baseless asumption at all.

It is, because Gero has already built eternal energy reactors, thus capable of delivering energy to infinity.
Logically, he may have created reactors capable of accumulating energy without limits (and in fact it is so)

He had so many ways to handle differently the battle, but he chose the only one who ended up worse.

Piccolo knows Vegeta is in the ROSAT. Regardless if he's skeptical, he KNOWS he has a chance to take out 17 or at least damage him to a level where he might not be useful to Cell anymore. That is a lot better chance to take than to attack the guy who he knows he cannot possibly dent. Especially since Piccolo just fought 17 and can properly gauge who's likelier to get taken out by his Flash Grenade.

I do not see why. The greatest danger is always Cell (it is he who is strengthened by absorbing people, androids or not), and that he does not consider to have hopes, remains to be seen. Judging from his terrified expression, after seeing the Cell unharmed body, seems that he was convinced that he could do something, with his best shot. It never felt quite helpless against him (lower yes, helpless not). Even here, there is no objectively stupid situation, from his point of view. Even Raditz was monstrously more stronger than him, but it killed him.
And again, if we analyze every single battle in this way so overly analytical, none saga is saved, NONE.
You will always find some imperfection. In no way that episode is one of the most stupid... absolutely.

For example, Because no one he never thought to launch a barrage of Kaizen after one Taiyoken?

It's the only good moment of the Android Saga. Most of the other battles are either boring, one-sided curb stomps where either the hero completely dominates or the villain does. And usually the villain only wins the outcome from idiot balling

Let's say that was the last real battle that Toriyama has made with dedication, in the manga.