Do you want Dragon Ball to continue indefinitely?

[precita]

No, it should end again. People are saying it should go on now because we're caught up in Super's hype and its a brand new series and we're excited.

But after a few years the series will either get extremely repetitive or they'll run out of ideas again, etc. We'll be having Super Saiyan Rainbow colored hair God next.....yeah no.

[Soppa Saia People]

No, it should end again. People are saying it should go on now because we're caught up in Super's hype and its a brand new series and we're excited.

But after a few years the series will either get extremely repetitive or they'll run out of ideas again, etc. We'll be having Super Saiyan Rainbow colored hair God next.....yeah no.

While a red, yellow and blue Super Saiyan should be awesome.

[Xeztin]

No, it should end again. People are saying it should go on now because we're caught up in Super's hype and its a brand new series and we're excited.

But after a few years the series will either get extremely repetitive or they'll run out of ideas again, etc. We'll be having Super Saiyan Rainbow colored hair God next.....yeah no.

I agree that Goku's story one day has to come to an end, but they can drag that out for 10 years in real life time if they wanted to. However, I don't think the DB franchise or world will ever end as I believe that was what the 12 universes are for. Otherwise he'd probably just have made a twin universe (6) making it 2 in total. I can already see them doing a spin off about a complete different cast of characters in a completely different universe. They need to do a completely different transformation and drop the Super Saiyan name for it, I don't care if it needs a tail or whatever. SSJ4 was fresh when that design came up.

[Kunzait_83]

This is absolutely key in this discussion. All official companies involved are going to move forward with whatever they want, and it's only by the grace of God that 1) they're happy to let Toriyama take the driver's seat where appropriate, and 2) Toriyama wants to be involved. His participation in a lot of ways feels like a footnote. Not a happy thing to think about, but once he's gone, they're definitely not going to stop until we've reached peak 1997-levels of burnout.

Didn't Toriyama himself at one point outright admit that Super kinda sucks? Or was that just bullshit internet gossip?

Either way though, yeah I've gotten the definite sense for quite awhile now that a lot of the enthusiasm for Super pretty much boils down to a classic case of "long-starved and overly-excited fans" syndrome.

Someone recently wrote an article on Steve Martin's very first standup performance in over 35 years at a recent Jerry Seinfeld event, and it was such a complete and utter surprise from such a long-beloved comedy figure that the first 5 or 10 minutes or so of his set consisted of the audience wildly over-laughing at every single innocuous word out of the guy's mouth out of sheer palpable and long-held goodwill. Its a familiar phenomenon with long-gone and much-loved media figures; and while I could very well be wrong, its the vibe I've long been feeling here with not only Super, but even going back all the way to the Jump special.

The ravenous degree to which fans have been eating this stuff up, irrespective of its actual quality one way or the other, is kinda fascinating to behold: you'd never guess in a million years that all this bottomless hunger for more new stuff was for a series which already has long had more than 500 anime TV episodes, 16 theatrical anime films, and 42 manga volumes spanning over 11 years of constant high profile activity (not to mention all the video games). Clearly a waifer-thin property in terms of meat for the audience to chew on. Again, this always begs the question from me: when is too much ever enough?

Toriyama or not, this whole endeavor definitely has the stink of corporate suits "dragging the corpse from its coffin" so to speak. This isn't like a bunch of other anime/manga revivals where the original creator has a new manga out that they're actively working on (Fist of the North Star/Blue Sky or what have you). This feels like just another GT all over again, but with Toriyama doing maybe just a little bit more work behind the scenes to lend some extra authenticity to the whole thing (for whatever that's worth). And even then, GT at least (for all its faults and problems, which are many) still took some actual real risks and tried new things with the characters/universe. It felt like a genuine attempt to progress things with fresh ideas, however badly and half-assed they were implemented.

Still... we did get Beerus out of the whole thing though: sort of like how GT gave us SSJ4 (which is still WILDLY better and more creative as a new SSJ form than "blue haired SSJ" any given day of the week) and a few other neat concepts and ideas that worked better on paper/in theory than in actual practice/execution. Who knows what else (if anything) that's worthwhile or interesting might get wrung out of this. Time will tell, but I'm not really expecting much if this is any indication.

Either way though: Dragon Ball ended in 1995. It wasn't some obscure, tiny little indie darling that was cut down before its prime and that's only been discovered and appreciated more than 20 years after the fact: it was a global phenomenon that lasted 11 years and spanned a TON of media and hocked an equally fuckton of merch during its original day, while draining its creator completely dry in the process.

I still love it for what it is/was, but at a certain point just let it go.

If you are a purist, the manga exists. If you live by the Toonami run, that still exists. If you love GT, it's out there for you. If you like the original movies, you got em. Battle of the Gods and RoF peaked your interest, great. You want Dragon Ball, need more Dragon Ball, and needed it yesterday? Well here is Dragon Ball Super.

This series is well past the point where someone can claim that it is getting ruined by extending. Toriyama didn't have a plan going in and didn't even know where the series would be after the first arc with Goku, Bulma, and Oolong. By the time we got to Buu it was beyond the threshold of continuing for the sake of continuing. If this was a 50 episode run with one thread line throughout, okay I can see the value in letting sleeping dogs lie. But at this point, make as much as TOIE wants and if it sucks get ignore it, if it gets great, enjoy it.

That's all you can ask for anymore.

I'd actually be completely on board with this whole train of thought (and I certainly am insofar as the "don't like it, don't watch it" part of it goes: that much is fairly common sense) if it wasn't for how goddamned long of a time this dog's been left sleeping already. We went 20 years without ANY new content. After 11 years and 43 volumes/500 episodes, none ever felt remotely needed. And neither the FUNimation dub nor Kai remotely count as "new content" at all.

I think what a lot of this is ultimately gonna come down to is that a LOT of Western fans very easily take for granted exactly how much older Dragon Ball actually is than they're able to perceive it as. The mention above of "the Toonami run" is particularly telling: for most current U.S. fans, the series "ended" for them when FUNimation ran out of stuff to dub... which happened what, back in 2006 or so? That's a ten year long gap: half of what its actually been. You might know offhandedly now that the series is twice or thrice as old as what you originally thought it was as a kid: but simply knowing well after the fact that Dragon Ball started in 1984 rather than 1999/2000 is in no way, shape, or form the same thing as actually living through and feeling that extra 10+ years difference.

For a large chunk of fans, the series will always be "that show I watched on Cartoon Network in 2001" rather than "that anime/manga series I followed in 1993". That makes a HUGE world of difference in how this whole revival will come across to you I think. 10 years gone, I can MAYBE possibly (if I really stretch it) still understand how more stuff might seem like a vaguely more natural-ish progression. 20 though? We're at a point by then where this thing's been dead and done for so long that its firmly encrusted and fossilized within the tomb of "the distant past". That doesn't NECESSARILY have to disqualify it from ever coming back obviously... provided it has good reason/material with which to do so and justify it. If it had just been chugging right along up until 2007, that'd be one thing. But that's not at all what this is.

The Cell & Boo arcs and GT were definitely flogging this thing out pretty badly back in its day (that Cell and Boo still manage to be even half as imaginative as they are almost solely on the sheer, overpowering force of Toriyama's towering sense of batshit is almost Herculean in its impressiveness), and Dragon Ball burnout was something that most of us at the time in the late-90s were feeling just prior to the dub's explosion which effectively "reset" the entire fan paradigm almost overnight. But as much as the last quarter or so of DB's run was going on fumes, it did eventually know when to finally call it quits. And considering how exhausted it was by that point, why in god's name would anyone want the property to just be flung out there again purely for the sake of being back out there, without a great deal much to back it up? Especially after it bowed out with what dignity it had left more than 20 years ago?

Again don't misunderstand: if Toriyama were diving into this headfirst with a whole new burst of ideas with which to explore all on his own with little more than his pen & pencils, that'd be one thing. But that's not what's happening here: small bits of inspiration aside, this is largely as soulless a corporate a product as they come, and that Toriyama has as much involvement in it as he does doesn't seem to be able to wipe that particular odor from any of this: one gets the sense that, as was said, his actual level of involvement doesn't really add up to being much more than what it was for GT (i.e. a glorified consultant). GT at least had the courtesy to be done with itself fairly quickly: Super though is projected to go on for I think well over a hundred episodes last time I heard. Egads.

[Saturnine]

Well, if the story is to preserve drama, you must go up against progressively stronger opponents. I'd imagine that they'll explore other universes and find threats there surpassing what we've had, and then finally there'll be one villain who'll want to destroy all 12 universes, as the ultimate challenge.

And Goku and Vegeta are still below Whis, who is single-universe tier. That gives us some room.

But beyond that - I doubt either Toriyama or Toei could come up with a convincing tier of power, so any further Dragon Ball stuff would be doomed to being anticlimactic. Therefore not much purpose in making it,.

[saiyanvegetable]

In an ideal world they'd mercy kill modern DB until somebody who actually cares about the franchise takes helm.

[TheMikado]

@Kunzait_83

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!!!

I feel exactly the same way. If you were a fan since the early 90s you have a different feeling about the entire Dragonball series. I.E people newer to the franchise love Super.

I was a fan since the original dragonball so watching the progression was difficult at times. I enjoyed parts of GT mostly because it kept and honored a lot of the spirit and things throughout the entire dragonball series. Even Goku SSJ4 form being his ultimate form is a call back to the original Dragonball and Goku mastering the Oozuru form.

Super completely ignores it and $h*ts all over that legacy. At least as you say GT ended quickly and ended Goku's story with class while leaving open the door for the rest of the Dragonball world to still continue.

Short of a memory wipe/time rewind there's no going back from where Super is right now. If DBZ took it to insane levels then I'm not sure what to call Super. At least GT made the enemies stronger than Majin Boo few and far inbetween and they were not even natural beings so I'm ok with that.

[ABED]

Also Mad Max.

Let's not go that far. I'll take Star Wars over Fury Road. It has characters and a story, even if it was essentially episode 4 all over again. Fury Road was the same as the previous two mad max films, but at least Star Wars had characters I cared about, much like Dragon Ball. Though I do agree that given how long DB is that people are still seemingly hungry for new material. I like the idea of a new movie every so often, but I'm not dying to see a new series. But I'll take Super over Fury Road. If they can keep Bond going and every so often reinvigorate him, I don't see how DB can't be the same. As you can see, I'm ambivalent about this. I'm fine either way.

Regarding the "it wasn't needed" argument. None of this is neccessary, it's just nice to have.

Someone recently wrote an article on Steve Martin's very first standup performance in over 35 years at a recent Jerry Seinfeld event, and it was such a complete and utter surprise from such a long-beloved comedy figure that the first 5 or 10 minutes or so of his set consisted of the audience wildly over-laughing at every single innocuous word out of the guy's mouth out of sheer palpable and long-held goodwill. Its a familiar phenomenon with long-gone and much-loved media figures; and while I could very well be wrong, its the vibe I've long been feeling here with not only Super, but even going back all the way to the Jump special.

There are a lot of examples of that, but if people don't like it, that fervor will die down.

In an ideal world they'd mercy kill modern DB until somebody who actually cares about the franchise takes helm.

And how do you know who cares? How do you know the writers don't care? It's very possible that they care about the quality but just aren't good writers.

[Gorou]

Totaly agree with Kunzait 83.
Dragon Ball has had a perfect conclusion with Majin Buu.
Super is a very sensible product as regards Toei Animation, because in this way have created a new product packaged specifically to be able to create new merchandising about and earn money, in practice it is nothing but a long and steady advertising to promote comic books, action figures, video games and any kind of gadgets.

[Cure Dragon 255]

In an ideal world they'd mercy kill modern DB until somebody who actually cares about the franchise takes helm.

What makes you think that this very caring person will be all that much better, like Jacob said, its best that talented and passionate people are at the helm.I doubt one could improve DB Super just by caring a lot without any talent.

[JulieYBM]

But there's also a ton of behind-the-scenes goings on with regards to animation budget as well as the general marketing whims of the current anime marketplace that make the whole enterprise feel as if there's a ton of fingers being stuck into the cookie jar.

It's certainly not a budget issue. There's no way this series costs less per episode than your average Toei or industry episode, the production simply got off to a terrible start thanks to no pre-production time and beginning in the middle of an animator draught.

[ekrolo2]

The new Dragon Ball material at times sort of feels like something torn in between the two (though probably leaning more heavily on the "just do something, anything, to keep the IP going" side of things): Toriyama came back into this willingly and with nobody twisting his arm to do so, and in some of this you can clearly tell there's a genuinely talented person having a ball with their old toys. But there's also a ton of behind-the-scenes goings on with regards to animation budget as well as the general marketing whims of the current anime marketplace that make the whole enterprise feel as if there's a ton of fingers being stuck into the cookie jar.

This is absolutely key in this discussion. All official companies involved are going to move forward with whatever they want, and it's only by the grace of God that 1) they're happy to let Toriyama take the driver's seat where appropriate, and 2) Toriyama wants to be involved. His participation in a lot of ways feels like a footnote. Not a happy thing to think about, but once he's gone, they're definitely not going to stop until we've reached peak 1997-levels of burnout.

I disagree, with Toriyama gone maybe someone with a hint of a clue how to write the characters beyond "Goku's a selfish ass, Vegeta's must beat KAKAROTTO! and Gohan STILL keeps forgetting to train" might com along and do something new with them.

[TheMikado]

^ I dont know who's at fault or to blame or how to fix it but I can say right now. The current state of things does not feel right, natural, organic, or true to the spirit of dragonball or even the first part of Z at all. I appreciate the comedy coming back, but the characterizations and story still feel off. There have definitely been high point as have been pointed out but they have been fewer and far between and somewhat disappointing.

[ekrolo2]

^ I dont know who's at fault or to blame or how to fix it but I can say right now. The current state of things does not feel right, natural, organic, or true to the spirit of dragonball or even the first part of Z at all. I appreciate the comedy coming back, but the characterizations and story still feel off. There have definitely been high point as have been pointed out but they have been fewer and far between and somewhat disappointing.

The problem is two-fold for me: there's no motivation for anyone to do anything besides why not it'll be fun. Seeing characters just do stuff is fine for a few episodes. maybe an arc but it's not sustainable across 30 something episodes the way it's being done now. The lack of a discernible, worthwhile objective that has everyone invested would be fine if the character stuff was worth a damn but it's not.

Goku is still the same selfish prick who amnesia'd away his lesson from the end of the Cell Games, Vegeta's back to being obsessed about beating him when him gunning for Beerus due to the Gods involvement with planet Vegeta being destroy would be FFFFAAAARRRRR more interesting and Gohan, like the latter two, has once again forgotten a lesson he couldn't have realistically forgotten. The rest of the cast aren't even worth mentioning since fuck and all is done with them.

So, we've got a show where everyone's reasoning for doing anything is screwing around and where everyone's been hit by Toriyama amnesia for the sake of us seeing them go through the same motions yet again with only some decent comedy to keep us invested. Yeah, I don't care if half the fandom committed seppuku for not "respecting the spirit of Dragon Ball" but I'd rather take something completely random and insane like Sin City with DB characters being officially produced & made over this onslaught of regurgitated shit.

At least THAT would be interesting in its sheer absurdity and visual distinctiveness.

[ABED]

What lesson did Goku supposedly learn at the end of the Cell Games?

Why does everyone assume that just because Vegeta admitted that Goku is number one he can't still be competitive as hell?

[B]

I disagree, with Toriyama gone maybe someone with a hint of a clue how to write the characters beyond "Goku's a selfish ass, Vegeta's must beat KAKAROTTO! and Gohan STILL keeps forgetting to train" might com along and do something new with them.

I wasn't necessarily speaking to the quality of the overall product, just that its reasons for existing are very obviously corporate driven. And duh, that's what any product is at the end of the day, but there's just something grody and ultra-transparent about it than it ever was before; Super was announced three months before it debuted; there was either poor planning or no planning. This revival is 120% not Toriyama's idea, and it's 220% not because anyone involved had an interesting idea or story to tell. It's a very clear example of an executive going "People are going to pay us money for Dragon Ball. One of you writer types come up with something and we'll run it by Toriyama-sensei. Make sure there's lots of marketing/toy possibilities!" It's the complete opposite of how something good comes to be born.

And really, I think I disagree with your disagreement. If Toriyama is out of the picture, there's almost certainly going to be even less risks taken. We're going to get a fourth Broly film. We're going to get a giant lizard that infects people with evil. We're going to get Dragon Ball AF.

Toriyama may not be the only person who can write Dragon Ball well, but he juuuust may be the sole individual who can write it "purely"; devoid of pandering or regurgitation.

[ekrolo2]

What lesson did Goku supposedly learn at the end of the Cell Games?

Why does everyone assume that just because Vegeta admitted that Goku is number one he can't still be competitive as hell?

He seemed to realize that it's his selfish desire for fighting that put everyone at risk, hence why he opts to stay dead. He doesn't trust himself to do the right thing if another strong opponent comes back which is pretty much the Boo Saga in a nutshell. BoG also had the interesting angle of him becoming too prideful and arrogant like Vegeta and both of those get wiped away by the next arc as if nothing happened.

As for Vegeta, DBM shows us how you can do Vegeta post-Boo Saga who still trains but isn't up his own ass anymore, showing genuine respect for Goku. I'll give Super that Vegeta isn't quite as bad as in the movie version of F but I REALLY dislike the notion that Goku is the only one who can have a sense of self-improvement period with everyone else forgetting theirs or needing Goku as an end goal to fuel their own as is the case with Vegeta. Especially since the retcon of Beerus being involved with planet Vegeta's destruction can function as a perfectly fine substitute.

I disagree, with Toriyama gone maybe someone with a hint of a clue how to write the characters beyond "Goku's a selfish ass, Vegeta's must beat KAKAROTTO! and Gohan STILL keeps forgetting to train" might com along and do something new with them.

I wasn't necessarily speaking to the quality of the overall product, just that its reasons for existing are very obviously corporate driven. And duh, that's what any product is at the end of the day, but there's just something grody and ultra-transparent about it than it ever was before; Super was announced three months before it debuted; there was either poor planning or no planning. This revival is 120% not Toriyama's idea, and it's 220% not because anyone involved had an interesting idea or story to tell. It's a very clear example of an executive going "People are going to pay us money for Dragon Ball. One of you writer types come up with something and we'll run it by Toriyama-sensei. Make sure there's lots of marketing/toy possibilities!" It's the complete opposite of how something good comes to be born.

And really, I think I disagree with your disagreement. If Toriyama is out of the picture, there's almost certainly going to be even less risks taken. We're going to get a fourth Broly film. We're going to get a giant lizard that infects people with evil. We're going to get Dragon Ball AF.

Toriyama may not be the only person who can write Dragon Ball well, but he juuuust may be the sole individual who can write it "purely"; devoid of pandering or regurgitation.

Pandering? Probably but regurgitation has been Toriyama's exact problem for a long, long time and the series was already crumbling story-wise from it 20 years ago. It's pretty unsustainable for it now. BoG at least showed us you can do it, with Toriyama involved, as a means to intentionally poke fun and subvert tropes from 90s DBZ films and make something a bit smarter and more self-aware. But I think it's becoming painfully clear that BoG was either a fluke or good because of what the last writer had in mind, not Toriyama.

[Hellspawn28]

I feel like that Dragon Ball should go on as long if the human race is around. Would you guys not want to see people in the late 21st century, 22nd century and beyond to experience Dragon Ball?

[ABED]

He seemed to realize that it's his selfish desire for fighting that put everyone at risk, hence why he opts to stay dead. He doesn't trust himself to do the right thing if another strong opponent comes back which is pretty much the Boo Saga in a nutshell. BoG also had the interesting angle of him becoming too prideful and arrogant like Vegeta and both of those get wiped away by the next arc as if nothing happened.

You could take it that way OR the way I took it is, "Hey guys, I'm a magnet for these dangerous monsters, so I'm opting to stay away." It has nothing to do with trusting himself to do the right thing against a strong opponent, just that if they are going to find him, they might as well find him away from people he cares about. However, all that is moot when he's still dead and someone would've attacked Earth regardless.

As for Vegeta, DBM shows us how you can do Vegeta post-Boo Saga who still trains but isn't up his own ass anymore, showing genuine respect for Goku. I'll give Super that Vegeta isn't quite as bad as in the movie version of F but I REALLY dislike the notion that Goku is the only one who can have a sense of self-improvement period with everyone else forgetting theirs or needing Goku as an end goal to fuel their own as is the case with Vegeta. Especially since the retcon of Beerus being involved with planet Vegeta's destruction can function as a perfectly fine substitute.

Their rivalry seems more friendly now and it's not as much Goku being the strongest as it is Goku being a lower class fighter and showing him up. While I think he's gotten over that, there's still that emotional attachment. He still wants to be better than that one guy, just not in nearly as evil a manner, but slightly more like Tenshinhan who always pushed himself because of Goku.

just that its reasons for existing are very obviously corporate driven.

Why does that matter so much?

[Gaffer Tape]

I feel like that Dragon Ball should go on as long if the human race is around. Would you guys not want to see people in the late 21st century, 22nd century and beyond to experience Dragon Ball?

Nothing has to stop them from experiencing it. It doesn't require new material for people of the future to experience it. It's still there. It still exists. Unless an apocalypse occurs that wipes out every copy of every thing, it's going to keep existing. Now I'm not naive enough to say that new material doesn't help keep it relevant and in the public eye, but new material isn't necessary for someone to find it and enjoy it. It would probably be fewer people, but that really doesn't bother me either.