Plot Holes

[Hitiro]

Having something in the back of his mind means to... No, wait! I'm not going to do a roundabout. Was I not right in using the word pedantry? I'll just stick to the anime, as unfaithful and full of filth as it should be. I'm sorry that I even continued this argument. Move along...

Pedantry is equivalent to nitpicking which is effectively scrutinizing something to the utmost detail. In essence if someone states "I can't beat this person like this!" rather than taking the line as it is you would focus on the "like this!" part and try to equivocate that to something. Which is what you did, right? In comparison I merely called someone on the use of the word troublesome. It's not really pedantry to point out that the word has multiple meanings. That person brought up the troublesome dialogue and I merely stated that the word troublesome could be used in any fashion. So to say that the line obviously holds meaning to one definition over the other with how vague the word is, is in itself ludicrous.

[Desassina]

You're right and I was wrong, as usual. What you're stating is the fact. Let's move on to more plot holes, if you may. How about the one I posted that went uncommented? It's related to Gotenks fighting Super Buu in the RoSaT for the duration of fusion, and everyone outside speaking in what could have been mili seconds.

[Hitiro]

You're right and I was wrong, as usual. What you're stating is the fact. Let's move on to more plot holes, if you may. How about the one I posted that went uncommented? It's related to Gotenks fighting Super Buu in the RoSaT for the duration of fusion, and everyone outside speaking in what could have been mili seconds.

Definitely a plot hole. Unless they managed to discuss all that in 3 seconds.

Though if you really want to search for an answer you could argue that Goku and the others are moving extremely fast when this is going on? I don't believe the manga shows anybody other than them outside the RoSaT when Gotenks is fighting Boo.

Alternatively the Kaioshin planet could also have some funky time stuff going on.

[Speedster]

Besides it is the "Super Buu side" that goes out of their way to interpret the most “troublesome line” as meaning anything else but the most obvious.

Most troublesome could literally mean anything.

Yes, words may have multiple meanings but you have to see the context. When I am saying that “Joe took Kate out on a date” the word date has a different meaning than “Today the date is xx/yy/2016”. But you are able to understand the difference, aren't you?

In the context of Dragonball a weak troublemaker can simply be overpowered and be stopped from being troublesome. So when someone is described as troublesome and everyone fears them it means they are talking about someone who can cause trouble and their troublemaking cannot be stopped … and that because of them or their subordinates being too powerful to be stopped.

You state it as if it is obvious but if a child in a class is the most troublesome out of the bunch that does not mean that child can beat down an adult or that the child is the strongest in the class. Now does it?

A “troublesome” student doesn't cause fear to the teacher, do they? They can be punished. There are solutions like detention, etc. They will be troublesome to the point of causing fear if they are a threat of harming the teacher or something. Even then there is police.

So, right back at you. It is the "Pure Boo side" that goes out of their way to interpret Goku's statement as meaning anything else but the most obvious.

Not at all. It is the Super Buu side that blatantly claims the entire anime is wrong due to their headcanons refusing to accept a simple fact. And not even that but they even contest the logic of further movies (movie 13) and the continuation of Dragonball with Super where Vegeta says Goku is the number one in the universe in episode 2.

In the above example SSJ3 Gotenks is 7 times more powerful than Goku!

Multipliers again? You discount the anime and focus on the manga yet you allow a different third-party material in your argument. This is a fallacy.

I gave it as an example. If you check what I said before and ignore the multipliers it still comes out the same.

There is nothing in the source material that implies/hints that SSJ3 is a static multiplier/boost. It may be variable, user dependent, training dependent, etc. And all of your arguments are based on that static multiplier logic. Besides Goku in chapter 476 stated that SSJ3 is meant only to be used in the other world. In the living world, where time passes, it uses way too much energy, and you easily get exhausted. The fight of Goku and kid Buu didn't take place in the living world. So you may apply: SSJ3 dead Goku in the other world>SSJ3 alive Goku in the other World>>SSJ3 dead Goku in the living world

[Analytic]

Not at all. It is the Super Buu side that blatantly claims the entire anime is wrong due to their headcanons refusing to accept a simple fact. And not even that but they even contest the logic of further movies (movie 13) and the continuation of Dragonball with Super where Vegeta says Goku is the number one in the universe in episode 2.

Why should the anime even be taken into consideration here? Unless you're going to argue that Base Goku is almost as strong as Ultimate Gohan then you're nitpicking and refusing to accept that the anime is highly contradictory and thus not a valid source. As far as the manga goes, Son Goku himself says that he can't beat Evil Boo. How the objectivity of that is even up for debate is beyond me.

[Darkprince410]

So, right back at you. It is the "Pure Boo side" that goes out of their way to interpret Goku's statement as meaning anything else but the most obvious.

Not at all. It is the Super Buu side that blatantly claims the entire anime is wrong due to their headcanons refusing to accept a simple fact. And not even that but they even contest the logic of further movies (movie 13) and the continuation of Dragonball with Super where Vegeta says Goku is the number one in the universe in episode 2.

Because Toei has repeatedly added contradictory content solely to make Goku out to be stronger than Toriyama intended him to. You look at Toriyama's original story and there's no logical way to accept Pure Buu as being stronger than Evil Buu, as all evidence points otherwise.

As for Vegeta's dialogue in episode 2, his first statement is contradictory in itself if it's used to denote strength, as he's saying that Goku is #1 because he defeated Ma-jin Buu, even though he defeated Ma-jin Buu with the Genki Dama, which didn't involve his strength at all. Saying that Goku is #1 in strength for defeating Ma-jin Buu with the Genki Dama would be like saying that Kuririn was stronger than Vegeta during the Freeza Saga because his ki-enzan did more damage to Freeza than Vegeta ever did.

As for the second bit of dialogue, you have Vegeta saying that, in order to become #1 in the universe, he needed to surpass Goku and everyone else. He wasn't acknowledging Goku as the #1 in the universe, otherwise he wouldn't need to surpass "everyone else". All he says is he acknowledges Goku as the strongest Saiya-jin, which again, doesn't necessarily mean Gohan or Gotenks.

[Speedster]

Why should the anime even be taken into consideration here?

Why not?
1. We are NOT talking about a total filler scene that Toei pulled out of their ass like the other world tournament for example.
2. The anime added to the story many things that were described in interviews by Toriyama but not appeared in the manga.
3. People here are so adamant that base Super Buu>>kid Buu that they even hold the belief that new canon anime continuation of Dragonball Super follows that logic. They end up coming up with the most ridiculous headcanons to explain things that are otherwise contradictory to their theories but fairly straightforward when you accept kid Buu>Super Buu. Besides Toei always corrected things in later arcs that were serious plot-points even if that meant retconning their own filler. See origin of Dragonballs and even trivial things like Vegeta's hair colour. And in Super episode 2 it states that Goku is the #1. You may want to twist the meaning if you wish but that doesn't change what is really stated.
5. Even now in DBSuper Goku considers Buu crazy strong and is excited in the prospect of fighting a kid Buu's level opponent again.

Unless you're going to argue that Base Goku is almost as strong as Ultimate Gohan

Why do I even need to resort to that? In case you didn't notice I dispute that the SSJ power ups are static multipliers. You think they are due to your databook multipliers' maths yet you have the cheek to tell me to not take into consideration the anime because it's outside of the manga material. Neither are the databooks.

As far as the manga goes, Son Goku himself says that he can't beat Evil Boo. How the objectivity of that is even up for debate is beyond me.

Not as clear-cut statement and besides I support that the line is a plothole to begin with!
1. Goku may had just been referring to the state they were in (SSJ2). He may have said so in order to not humiliate Vegeta (you will be killed but I, the SSJ3 will not) who had previously even died thinking that was equal to Goku. So he downplayed the importance of the SSJ3 power up and sought to defeat Super Buu through collaboration.
2. That statement was made on Earth. It was in the living world where time flows. In the other world he could he could possibly sustain a higher power up implied in ch. 476 even in a living body.
3. When everyone was revived Goku suggested to bring BOTH Gohan AND Gotenks in order to HELP them against kid Buu. If Kid Buu<Super Buu then Gohan alone would be able to one shot him.
4. Why did Goku requested for kid Buu to come back as a good person for a rematch if his own son could offer him a much much bigger challenge?
5. Kid Buu was described as the most troublesome Buu and in the context it was said it was implied as being an unstoppable troublemaker ... a stoppable one is of not much to fear about. And in Dragonball "DBZ era" everything boils down to strength about whether someone can be stopped causing trouble or not.

[Kamiccolo9]

To be fair, the Daizenshuu differentiate between the manga and anime. Half of them are devoted exclusively to one or the other, while the big encyclopedia (7, I think?) marks which content is anime only, if I'm not mistaken.

This notion of "the guidebooks" being a single cohesive whole really needs to stop, especially considering that 99% of the fanbase that constantly (mis)quotes them has never even looked at them. Mike made an excellent thread which raised that point which, sadly, seems to have been ignored in favor of more people bitching about animation or why "x can't beat y because y got z times stronger in q years, so if y had r years to train, they'd be ssss times stronger than x."

[Desassina]

We don't need any more confirmation that some people's enjoyment ended many years ago with the manga, but there is a canon follow up that clears all doubts: Dragon Ball Super; and we had rather continue from that axiom to enjoy it. I know... I know that it can only be considered canon with many layers of adaptation in between, like Dragon Ball Kai, which was made with the intention of being more faithful to the manga through the series' organizer, who worked on the Daizenshuu, etc. So let's not treat these things as outside the universe, which was made whole a long time ago. I mean, what's more likely, that we should put weight on fan theories stemming from Youtube and most forum communities, or work with the official material that is available, which most people cling to even for their "manga only" and "factual" analysis? Please... Let us enjoy Dragon Ball without pretending that everything else doesn't exist.

[Captain Strawberry]

Mirai Gohan is just unexplained.

[Hitiro]

Besides it is the "Super Buu side" that goes out of their way to interpret the most “troublesome line” as meaning anything else but the most obvious.

Most troublesome could literally mean anything.

Yes, words may have multiple meanings but you have to see the context. When I am saying that “Joe took Kate out on a date” the word date has a different meaning than “Today the date is xx/yy/2016”. But you are able to understand the difference, aren't you?

Except the line in question can literally be taken in multiple regards whereas the context is clear with the examples you supplied. It is not stated how this Boo is troublesome. It could be because he is crazy and will blow up a planet without a seconds notice, which he does attempt. Or it could be pertaining to strength. Or it could be that this Boo is troublesome because there would be literally no reasoning with him unlike the other two Boo's. Mr. Satan was a big influence on Fat Boo and Evil Boo would not hurt him either.

In the context of Dragonball a weak troublemaker can simply be overpowered and be stopped from being troublesome. So when someone is described as troublesome and everyone fears them it means they are talking about someone who can cause trouble and their troublemaking cannot be stopped … and that because of them or their subordinates being too powerful to be stopped.

You say this but you're forgetting that weak troublemakers have still won even with a significant disadvantage. Need I remind you that Freeza was severely weakened after his fight with Vegeta yet he still managed to kill Vegeta because he blew up Earth. You're also assuming Goku and Vegeta were fearing him. It was incredibly evident that they weren't afraid of him. In fact, I would say the only one scared of him is Kibitoshin. But it's understandable if a character reverts to a form which caused you nightmares by slaughtering your people except for yourself.

You state it as if it is obvious but if a child in a class is the most troublesome out of the bunch that does not mean that child can beat down an adult or that the child is the strongest in the class. Now does it?

A “troublesome” student doesn't cause fear to the teacher, do they? They can be punished. There are solutions like detention, etc. They will be troublesome to the point of causing fear if they are a threat of harming the teacher or something. Even then there is police.

That isn't true. There was a very troublesome kid when I was in my school which was pretty crazy, he even tried to set me on fire at one point. That doesn't change the fact that troublesome means this. And yes, teachers were scared of what he may do. Despite them having the physical advantage.

So, right back at you. It is the "Pure Boo side" that goes out of their way to interpret Goku's statement as meaning anything else but the most obvious.

Not at all. It is the Super Buu side that blatantly claims the entire anime is wrong due to their headcanons refusing to accept a simple fact. And not even that but they even contest the logic of further movies (movie 13) and the continuation of Dragonball with Super where Vegeta says Goku is the number one in the universe in episode 2.

No, we claim the anime is wrong due to the inconsistencies it causes. The inconsistencies of which do not exist in the original source material. Goku in the anime goes out of his way to claim that Pure Boo is the strongest despite everything that has happened up to these events. If Pure Boo was truly the strongest then Goku would stand no chance because admittedly a "weaker"(by your view) version of Boo would have been too much for Goku to handle. Unless Goku received some crazy power-up to allow him to fight on par with who you claim to be the strongest Boo then there is no way that this Boo is stronger. Further taking his words, if this Boo was the strongest that would make him stronger than Boohan. Even if you are under the impression that Ultimate Gohan and Evil Boo are weaker than SSJ3 Goku the combined battle power of both of them would make him close to double Goku's strength as they are both SSJ3 tier characters even if you place them as weaker than Goku. So therefore you're of the opinion that it is something like this:

Fat Boo: 250
Evil Boo: 300
Ultimate Gohan: 350
SSJ3 Goku: 400
Boohan: 350 + 300 = 650
Pure Boo: 700
SSJ3 Goku(100%): 750

^Where is the logic in this?

There is nothing in the source material that implies/hints that SSJ3 is a static multiplier/boost. It may be variable, user dependent, training dependent, etc. And all of your arguments are based on that static multiplier logic. Besides Goku in chapter 476 stated that SSJ3 is meant only to be used in the other world. In the living world, where time passes, it uses way too much energy, and you easily get exhausted. The fight of Goku and kid Buu didn't take place in the living world. So you may apply: SSJ3 dead Goku in the other world>SSJ3 alive Goku in the other World>>SSJ3 dead Goku in the living world

For starters you're misinterpreting what he is saying. When he says that it is about being dead in general. If, like you said, this were based on other world having influences on the body, even a living one then he should have been able to easily maintain his SSJ3 form indefinitely if no time is involved. We know that time still passes in other world if you aren't dead. Because the Kaioshin do age and they do die. Look at the Rou Kaioshin. He only had so many thousands of years left of his life. Furthermore the Kaioshin planet is not part of other world. It exists outside of other world and the rest of the universe in its own place.

[Darkprince410]

1. Goku may had just been referring to the state they were in (SSJ2). He may have said so in order to not humiliate Vegeta (you will be killed but I, the SSJ3 will not) who had previously even died thinking that was equal to Goku. So he downplayed the importance of the SSJ3 power up and sought to defeat Super Buu through collaboration.
2. That statement was made on Earth. It was in the living world where time flows. In the other world he could he could possibly sustain a higher power up implied in ch. 476 even in a living body.
3. When everyone was revived Goku suggested to bring BOTH Gohan AND Gotenks in order to HELP them against kid Buu. If Kid Buu<Super Buu then Gohan alone would be able to one shot him.
4. Why did Goku requested for kid Buu to come back as a good person for a rematch if his own son could offer him a much much bigger challenge?
5. Kid Buu was described as the most troublesome Buu and in the context it was said it was implied as being an unstoppable troublemaker ... a stoppable one is of not much to fear about. And in Dragonball "DBZ era" everything boils down to strength about whether someone can be stopped causing trouble or not.

1) The one reason Goku had to avoid using Ssj3 in front of Vegeta was already gone, as Vegeta had already made it clear that he knew Goku had the form and was enraged that he held back the form during their battle. If anything, it would have been a bigger insult to Vegeta's pride if Goku had tried pandering to him on their odds of victory if Goku had been able to defeat Evil Buu on his own.

2) All that was implied by #476 was that he could sustain it longer, not that he could sustain a higher level. His max against Pure Buu was his max overall.

3) He never said "help fight". He thought Vegeta wanted to bring them back so that they could fight.

Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”

4) Because a fight between the two of them would be even, which is what Goku would enjoy. Trying to face Gohan would be so one sided in Gohan's favor that it wouldn't be the kind of fight Goku was looking for.

5) No, in the context of why he was the "most troublesome", Kibitoshin outright states that it was because he had no self control at all and was pure evil. Nothing even remotely about him being unstoppable at all.

[Desassina]

So therefore you're of the opinion that it is something like this:

Fat Boo: 250
Evil Boo: 300
Ultimate Gohan: 350
SSJ3 Goku: 400
Boohan: 350 + 300 = 650
Pure Boo: 700
SSJ3 Goku(100%): 750

^Where is the logic in this?

Here's a better logic, using multiplication for the absorptions of the Kais, as if they locked a percentage of his power, while Gohan, the kids and Piccolo added to his power, no matter if stronger or weaker.

South Kaioshin - 0.8 - a bit higher than a SSJ
Dai Kaioshin - 0.5 - about equal to a SSJ
Piccolo - 0.24 - weaker than a SSJ

Kid Buu - 4 - the original with full power.
Buff Buu - 3.2 - 80% of his original power.
Fat Buu - 1.6 - 50% of Buff Buu's power.

Evil Buu - 2 - it's 1.25 times more than Fat Buu's power, or equal to his max through anger.
Good Buu - 1.28 - it's 1.25 times less than Fat Buu's power, or equal to his suppressed state.
Super Buu - 2.56 - Good Buu's power multiplied by Evil Buu's through his absorption.

Buutenks - 5.12 + 0.24 - with the latter being Piccolo's power.
Buuccolo - 2.8 - with the power of the kids being much lower.
Buuhan - 6 - Piccolo was considered, while the kids are too low.

-- revert to Super Buu --

Buff Buu - 3.2 - 0.8 times less than Super Buu's power.
Kid Buu - 4 - 0.8 times less than Buff Buu's power.

Fat Buu was taken from the inside of Super Buu, and he lost 80% of his suppression twice, one at a time, with 2 times 0.8 being Fat Buu's power (1.6). It all comes to a full circle. However, you can point to how arbitrary they are, when I could reply with: "isn't that the point of these numbers, discussions and theories in the first place?"

SSJ3 Goku - 4
Ultimate Gohan - 3.2
SSJ3 Gotenks - 2.56
Majin Vegeta - 1

[Darkprince410]

Buff Buu - 3.2 - 0.8 times less than Super Buu's power.
Kid Buu - 4 - 0.8 times less than Buff Buu's power.

Goku suggested a rather noticeable power decrease when Buu went from South Kaioushin Buu to Pure Buu, which supports what Kibitoshin indicated in that only the Dai Kaioushin actually negatively influenced Buu. South Kaioushin didn't affect him any way other than normal (form change and a power increase), but the Dai Kaioushin weakened him.

[apex_pretador]

every debate turned to forms of buu

[Tyro]

every debate turned to forms of buu

It's the Dragon Ball community's equivalent of Godwin's Law.

[Desassina]

Goku suggested a rather noticeable power decrease when Buu went from South Kaioushin Buu to Pure Buu, which supports what Kibitoshin indicated in that only the Dai Kaioushin actually negatively influenced Buu. South Kaioushin didn't affect him any way other than normal (form change and a power increase), but the Dai Kaioushin weakened him.

I'm not going to fight other notions anymore, but show that it's possible to defend another stance, where "absorption" can be interpreted as multiple ones in regard to his decreasing power, and represent it with numbers. It was a response to Hitiro finding them illogical, before he even tried to make sense with them, so take it as the example to prove otherwise without making a statement of my own.

[Darkprince410]

Goku suggested a rather noticeable power decrease when Buu went from South Kaioushin Buu to Pure Buu, which supports what Kibitoshin indicated in that only the Dai Kaioushin actually negatively influenced Buu. South Kaioushin didn't affect him any way other than normal (form change and a power increase), but the Dai Kaioushin weakened him.

I'm not going to fight other notions anymore, but show that it's possible to defend another stance, where "absorption" can be interpreted as multiple ones in regard to his decreasing power, and represent it with numbers. It was a response to Hitiro finding them illogical, before he even tried to make sense with them, so take it as the example to prove otherwise without making a statement of my own.

It's still illogical when we're told by Kibitoshin that it was specifically Dai Kaioushin that affected him negatively, and that Goku indicated a power decrease from SK Buu to Pure (as well as a power increase from Evil Buu to Pure Buu as well). There's no real way to try and make it work within the remaining facts provided to us.

[Desassina]

[edited out]

[Korppi]

This Plot Hole:
Why wasn't Android 16 revived by Shenron when it wished that the lives of all of Cell's victims are brought back to life? Because he's a completely synthetic android and never genuinely alive like Androids 17 and 18, right? But... Android 8, also truly robotic, is revived by Dragon Balls after probably being killed either by Super Buu Genocide Blast or when Kid Buu blew up Earth. And that's not filler, Android 8 and Suno are seen supplying Goku with their energy to use the Spirit Bomb against Kid Buu in the manga. Well, so maybe Android 16 is alive somewhere?