Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
qjz123 wrote:Didn't Dragon Ball Z have a higher budget back during its original run(relative to animating costs of course)? Super is basically a Saturday morning cartoon whereas Z had a prime time slot. Or am I getting that wrong?
The new animation isn't worse because of the way its produced, its worse because Toei are cheap as hell.
Dragon Ball Z was apparently allowed a higher number of in-between drawings than other Toei Animation shows, standing at around 3,500. The average count per episode for modern series is 3,000-4,000 but most Toei series seem to stick closer to 3,000. Toei Animation series are no 'cheaper' than any other long-running weekly series, they're just produced haphazardly due to poor management as the studio tries to remain afloat in a climate where less and less money is going to studios that never had very much to begin with.
Isn't every episode outsourced to whichever studio can produce it the cheapest? Since the more expensive studios can't keep up with the weekly pace.
Your point about weekly series is noted. Comparing something like Super or One Piece to a seasonal series that can be planned out is unfair.
Kendamu wrote:
AjayLikesGaming wrote:If you put out untouched footage, someone like me is going to take it and turn it into a perfect release. Someone not like me is going to do the same and share it instead. You give pirates the opportunity to do better than companies and people will jump on that so fast.
This is an 80s/90s animated all-ages show that was popular amongst kids. It's not some potent super weapon that might fall into the wrong hands that we have to protect from evil.
Dragon Ball Super is, for the most part, done in-house at Toei. Most episodes do have some cuts done in international animation houses in Asia, but their presence is kept fairly low key.
Toei are throwing plenty of money at the show; it's not a case of being cheap. They've got multiple supervisors an episode and huge key animator lists; they simply lack the time (and often talent) to produce anything exceptional.
Comparing the staff lists from One Piece to Super is pretty crazy. Big difference in animator talent going on there.
qjz123 wrote:Isn't every episode outsourced to whichever studio can produce it the cheapest? Since the more expensive studios can't keep up with the weekly pace.
Your point about weekly series is noted. Comparing something like Super or One Piece to a seasonal series that can be planned out is unfair.
No. Dragon Ball Super doesn't do 'gross contracts' like the first three series did, where an episode would be sub-contracted to another studio in its entirety. Scheduling and small studios not having the manpower don't allow for that anymore. Also, sub-contracting is mostly only done because there isn't enough in-house talent to work on so many different episodes at one time.
In terms of dragonball, the new art only ever looks good when its designed to look like a cleaner version of the old art with the same detail, multiple layered tones and softer colours. The newer style doesn't reflect that with the lack of detail, overly glossy colours and and very low-frame rates.
Last edited by SingleFringe&Sparks on Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.
Old animation but even modern animation can be really good (Madhouse, Studio Ghibli) if done properly albeit it's not as detailed as the classic ones. New animation can be very much like fast-food, it might be cheap, good and tasty, but after five minutes it leaves you empty again asking for more.
It seems that we have several discussions going here. There's line art (self explanatory), animation (movement), color (self explanatory) & the CGI involved in ki attacks, etc.
I'm fine with most of it the majority of the time with the exception of the line art. I would prefer colors that were a little less "MS Paint-ey", too, but the line art is what really bugs me. Super thin lines with no variation in thickness & no drama to them. Also, disproportionate with anatomy & angles much of the time.
qjz123 wrote:Super is basically a Saturday morning cartoon whereas Z had a prime time slot. Or am I getting that wrong ?
That's pretty much it, Z aired on Wednesday evenings which meant adults were watching as well so they had to put more effort into it while Super is being watched mostly by kids so it doesn't matter how bad it looks cause they don't care.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
qjz123 wrote:Super is basically a Saturday morning cartoon whereas Z had a prime time slot. Or am I getting that wrong ?
That's pretty much it, Z aired on Wednesday evenings which meant adults were watching as well so they had to put more effort into it while Super is being watched mostly by kids so it doesn't matter how bad it looks cause they don't care.
Not entirely true. Japan's laws are also much more stricter and Dragon Ball's always been watched by kids. It's a kids show, remember?
qjz123 wrote:Super is basically a Saturday morning cartoon whereas Z had a prime time slot. Or am I getting that wrong ?
That's pretty much it, Z aired on Wednesday evenings which meant adults were watching as well so they had to put more effort into it while Super is being watched mostly by kids so it doesn't matter how bad it looks cause they don't care.
I don't think the fact that adults were watching the show has any correlation into Toei putting more effort into the production of DBZ than they have for Super. Dragon Ball(Z) was always aimed at children, just like Dragon Ball Super is. it just so happens that other demographics liked the show as well. It didn't change the main priority of Toriyama and Toei to have Dragon Ball(Z)/(Super) appeal to its main audience of children.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Ajay wrote:Broadcast time and demographic have jack shit to do with Super's shoddy production.
It is bad because it is rushed. That. is. it.
It was rushed out the door to fill Kai's slot, and that's that.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Ajay wrote:Broadcast time and demographic have jack shit to do with Super's shoddy production.
It is bad because it is rushed. That. is. it.
It was rushed out the door to fill Kai's slot, and that's that.
Super would have been better had they started right off the bat with God of Destruction Champa arc which is now the 3rd Season. Seasons 1 and 2 are a complete waste of time and a trainwreck, especially Season 2. The movie versions are way better, straight to the point, better animation and last a lot less obviously.
Iberian_Saiyan wrote:Super would have been better had they started right off the bat with God of Destruction Champa arc which is now the 3rd Season. Seasons 1 and 2 are a complete waste of time and a trainwreck, especially Season 2. The movie versions are way better, straight to the point, better animation and last a lot less obviously.
It would have been worse. It seemed pretty clear to me that the retellings weren't to simply keep TV audiences up to date, but to also buy time for adequate Universe 6 pre-production.
Super would have been much better off beginning in January.
Someone with enough power to force re-writes an the discarding of key animation has been messing with the scheduling, too, so that has a lot to do with the terrible animation.
JulieYBM wrote:Someone with enough power to force re-writes an the discarding of key animation has been messing with the scheduling, too, so that has a lot to do with the terrible animation.
Yeahhhhhhhhhhh, I'm really curious about that. We got those cuts over two months ago now; that's a pretty unusual schedule for a weekly Toei show -- especially one like Super.
It showed Goku in action and Cabba in action. The original story must have had those two facing off early in the tournament. That, or Herms' guess about it being from a discarded opening.
Still not sure how to account for Kuririn's hair, though. I think we were already past the point of that being a viable option when we first saw those.
Kei17 wrote:Even with enough amount of time, we can't get away from Yamamuro's character designs.
A very sad truth. Out of curiosity, do you have any recent promo work that you've actually liked? That or examples of how you'd like the characters to look these days. I'm curious.
That Kuririn's character design has been completely swapped out for another just goes to show some crazy shit is going down at Toei right now. I'm sure it isn't Hatano or Chioka torpedoing their own show given their history. The only one with any real power who would care to force such a dumb change would have to be Toei Animation Chairman Morishita Kouzou, the Toei Animation executive overseeing the series.
I'm really curious to see if Episode #37 will credit Kanekubo Norie for anything. If his discarded key animation is going to show up anywhere it would have to be there, then.
kei17 wrote:Even with enough amount of time, we can't get away from Yamamuro's character designs.
Yeah, this is a big issue, too. With Yamamuro, Tsuji and Ide all keeping thing close to the former's models I have to wonder how Episodes #4 and #16 were received.
Ajay wrote:Broadcast time and demographic have jack shit to do with Super's shoddy production.
It is bad because it is rushed. That. is. it.
It was rushed out the door to fill Kai's slot, and that's that.
Yeah, i know that, that has been repeated thousand times. I'm just correcting the guy, i don't like when someone says that Dragon Ball isn't a kids show.
