The anime and the "strongest" Boo thing...

[Cipher]

This has always been such a silly debate, but whatever.

Even the anime is perfectly clear that Goku is no match for "Super" Boo earlier, whereas he thinks he can make a go against Pure Boo. The only thing that implies otherwise is one bit of punched-up narration, which is at complete odds with the way the story plays out.

Oh well.

[MisterGuyMan]

Why is the Kid Buu vs Super Buu argument a thing still. DB Super's Vegeta slice of life episode clearly placed Goku /Kid above everyone else when Vegeta said there's no doubt Goku was the best.

His lines are inconsistent. His first statement as far as Goku being #1 is because he defeated Buu, though he defeated Buu using the Genki Dama, which didn't take into account his own strength at all. Saying that Goku was the strongest because he defeated Buu with the Genki Dama would be like saying that Kuririn was stronger than Vegeta on Namek because he did more damage to Freeza than Vegeta did because he used the Ki-enzan.

His second statement, while saying that he acknowledges Goku is the strongest Saiya-jin, goes further to say that there are beings other than Goku that he needs to surpass in order to become the strongest in the universe. Since it's established later that he doesn't remember who Beerus is, the only other way Vegeta's line would make sense is if he knew that there were other beings stronger than Goku in order to become the true #1 of the universe.

You're nitpicking with the second statement. Vegeta doesn't need to know about Beers to know that Gohan exists, that Gohan is a Saiyan or that Gohan is in the universe. Regardless of what Vegeta doesn't or doesn't know, he knows who Gohan is and he places him under Goku without a doubt. So yeah as of DB Super, Buu saga Goku was the strongest Saiyan. Vegeta's statement makes sense regardless. He views Goku as the strongest after the defeat of Buu. That's one time frame. In the future Vegeta will train to surpass Goku and everyone else. That's another time frame. There's no contradiction.

[Darkprince410]

You're nitpicking with the second statement. Vegeta doesn't need to know about Beers to know that Gohan exists, that Gohan is a Saiyan or that Gohan is in the universe. Regardless of what Vegeta doesn't or doesn't know, he knows who Gohan is and he places him under Goku without a doubt. So yeah as of DB Super, Buu saga Goku was the strongest Saiyan. Vegeta's statement makes sense regardless. He views Goku as the strongest after the defeat of Buu. That's one time frame. In the future Vegeta will train to surpass Goku and everyone else. That's another time frame. There's no contradiction.

The fact remains though that Vegeta is saying that he'll have to surpass Goku and "everyone else" in order to become #1 in the universe. That means that he acknowledges there being someone other than Goku who is also above him. If Goku were the only one that he knew of stronger than him, why would he make a point to say that he'll surpass Goku and everyone else if Goku was the undeniable strongest?

Besides, as myself and others have mentioned before, to acknowledge that someone is something doesn't mean it's a pure, undeniable fact. In this case, all he's doing is admitting that he views Goku as the strongest, and then that ends up leaving open other questions after. Is he strictly talking about pure-blooded? Do Gohan and Gotenks count or not because they didn't really work for their strength (Gotenks had the advantage of the fusion and Gohan had external help from Rou Kaioushin)? Why not count Vegetto if it's including fusions? So on and so forth.

It's just not that cut and dry.

[Hitiro]

The fact remains though that Vegeta is saying that he'll have to surpass Goku and "everyone else" in order to become #1 in the universe. That means that he acknowledges there being someone other than Goku who is also above him. If Goku were the only one that he knew of stronger than him, why would he make a point to say that he'll surpass Goku and everyone else if Goku was the undeniable strongest?

Besides, as myself and others have mentioned before, to acknowledge that someone is something doesn't mean it's a pure, undeniable fact. In this case, all he's doing is admitting that he views Goku as the strongest, and then that ends up leaving open other questions after. Is he strictly talking about pure-blooded? Do Gohan and Gotenks count or not because they didn't really work for their strength (Gotenks had the advantage of the fusion and Gohan had external help from Rou Kaioushin)? Why not count Vegetto if it's including fusions? So on and so forth.

It's just not that cut and dry.

To further add to this, as you more or less said, it depends on how Vegeta is compiling this ranking list. This list could purely just be a list of the two of them and Vegeta is just asserting that, out of the two of them, Goku is number 1. It doesn't really have to mean anything more than that. Vegeta has made it clear on several occasions that he wants to surpass Goku and he couldn't care less about other more powerful characters. His Goal is to surpass the only other true remaining Saiyan from their universe because Goku has bested him many times.

[apex_pretador]

Why is the Kid Buu vs Super Buu argument a thing still. DB Super's Vegeta slice of life episode clearly placed Goku /Kid above everyone else when Vegeta said there's no doubt Goku was the best.

Was that in post buu arc or BoG arc?

This has always been such a silly debate, but whatever.

Even the anime is perfectly clear that Goku is no match for "Super" Boo earlier, whereas he thinks he can make a go against Pure Boo. The only thing that implies otherwise is one bit of punched-up narration, which is at complete odds with the way the story plays out.

Oh well.

or is it because he can't sustain SS3 for more than a few moments in living world, that's why super buu is too much for him?

[MisterGuyMan]

The fact remains though that Vegeta is saying that he'll have to surpass Goku and "everyone else" in order to become #1 in the universe. That means that he acknowledges there being someone other than Goku who is also above him. If Goku were the only one that he knew of stronger than him, why would he make a point to say that he'll surpass Goku and everyone else if Goku was the undeniable strongest?

The fact also remains that Vegeta places Goku above Gohan. There's no getting around it really. Regardless of what else Vegeta says, Goku is still above Gohan in his mind "without a doubt."

As for what Vegeta is talking about, there's no contradiction and you're muddying the discussion needlessly. Vegeta says Goku is the best after the defeat of Buu. Then in some future timeframe, Vegeta will surpass Goku and anyone else that might appear. This hasn't happened yet. It's a different timeframe altogether. Some one might appear or they might not. Vegeta believes he will surpass them regardless. The first statement is referring to the past. So naturally there's no contradiction. Both statements can be true by themselves and with the other.

Besides, as myself and others have mentioned before, to acknowledge that someone is something doesn't mean it's a pure, undeniable fact. In this case, all he's doing is admitting that he views Goku as the strongest, and then that ends up leaving open other questions after. Is he strictly talking about pure-blooded? Do Gohan and Gotenks count or not because they didn't really work for their strength (Gotenks had the advantage of the fusion and Gohan had external help from Rou Kaioushin)? Why not count Vegetto if it's including fusions? So on and so forth.

It's just not that cut and dry.

Has Vegeta ever discounted Gohan as a Saiyan? Perhaps before but I doubt he has recently. He's referred to Trunks as a Saiyan too. And even then Gohan is known to Vegeta and Gohan exists in the universe. That means Gohan falls under Vegeta's statements regardless. Your questions about who count can be answered by referring to the dialogue itself. Does Vegeta consider you a Saiyan? If so then you count. Do you exist in the universe? If so then you count. It really is that simple honestly.

Why is the Kid Buu vs Super Buu argument a thing still. DB Super's Vegeta slice of life episode clearly placed Goku /Kid above everyone else when Vegeta said there's no doubt Goku was the best.

Was that in post buu arc or BoG arc?

It was in the DBS episode where Vegeta took Trunks and Bulma to a theme park IIRC.

[Akira]

How many characters claimed to be the strongest in the universe throughout the series? How many characters claimed to be basically immortal, but weren't truly? How many claimed to be the or a god of destruction, but clearly weren't? Read the dialog as in the moment responses to what is going on right then.

Kid Buu was the "most powerful" in the sense that he had a near unlimited supply of ki. Take the phrasing with a grain of salt. In terms of actual power output, he was much, much weaker than any of the absorption/fusion forms. Those were both limited by the people absorbed, but also powered up as well. Buu received the positives and the drawbacks of the absorbed individuals. (Such as Gotenks' time limit as a drawback, etc)

Goku and Vegeta chose to fight without fusion themselves, because they thought they could take him on and win with their own power. They crushed the Potaras as proof of this. Goku uses Super Saiyan 3 right off the bat in the Manga, but chooses a warm-up match as Super Saiyan 2 first in the Anime. If anything, the Anime emphasizes the point of Kid Buu being weaker even more so.

Take it exactly as it is shown, they fight an un-fused guy un-fused themselves because they think they are roughly on par and it will be a relatively fair fight that way. There is no other opinion, there is no other point of view. There is only the blindingly obvious truth in the whole thing. All other statements or throwaway lines that seem to indicate anything different are just that.

This has, for some completely, non-understandable to me, reason, continued to be some sort of "debate" for as long as Dragonball has been present in the west. I watched this whole saga on a grainy, traction line ridden copy of a copied copy VHS tape with horribly translated fan subtitles way back in the late 1990's and even I understood what the heck was going on despite all of that. How on earth can you guys watch this stuff now and somehow be confused at what is happening?

I apologize well in advance for my tone and my combative stance here, truly I do, I get that the Buu Saga as a whole is full of confusing stuff that doesn't always seem to mesh out in a way that makes total sense. Yet, I can't, and never have, understood how there is any confusion on which Buu is the strongest. It just seems so obvious to me. Is there some other misunderstanding that I am unaware of? Some other Goku/Gohan thing or some other Buu plot point that arguing this helps resolve that makes people contest this or something? Maybe I'm not seeing the big picture or what people are trying to gain by saying that it is something different than what it is? Can someone without a stake in this explain to me what is going on or why this pops up over and over again?

Saiyan Saga, Oozaru Vegeta was strongest, they cut him down to size to make him fightable by removing his tail. Gohan punched Cell so hard that he vomited Android #18 out and reverted to his second form. No confusion there, although he was able to come back after self destructing at that point, he was still weakened briefly by removing a component of his absorptions.

I typically just ignore any topic involving Buu stuff because it somehow always leads to some sort of argument when there just isn't one to be made. How on earth is this a weekly new topic, every week of every year since the inception of this message forum? I just. don't. "get". it.

Again, I am not directing my frustration at any one person in particular. I also don't want to come across as "it is my viewpoint or nothing", as I am sure many will take it. Honestly, when it comes to this, I really don't care, think whatever you want. The only thing I want to understand is the motivation behind it, or what the underlying argument is that necessitates this one, which seems pretty clear-cut, as far as I can tell, with the best of my objective reasoning abilities.

[MisterGuyMan]

My motivation is to take all the material and mix them together without any contradictions. This is ONLY possible if you assume Kid Buu is the strongest and Goku didn't choose to fight Super Buu because of it's size. This is abductive reasoning. We keep eliminating all the scenarios that offer clear contradictions as impossible and whatever we have left, however improbable, must be true.

Kidd Buu is stated to be strongest. That's impossible to get around. Goku cant beat Super Buu "if he goes out like this." That has some wiggle room. Then add in Vegeta's statement in Super and there's only one possible way for these all to fit together. It also helps that the Kid Buu evidence is also newer than the Super Buu evidence. To borrow your example, its like saying Vegeta was stronger than Frieza in the Saiyan arc even though we have newer information.

[Desassina]

The only material that is conflicting with everything is SSJ3 Goku being the strongest, but we can work with that without changing the context of "We can't go outside and fight like this because Super Buu is stronger" (it was fusion), or even "We did it! Now we can manage something" (to drop Buu's power). There's no need to look further when those are straighter than "There should be no doubts that Goku is the strongest", so the question that I ask is: if we can read the latter very casually, why can't we read the other lines in the same manner? The solution for the whole problem is: Goku powered up to his fullest, and Vegeta took notice, before it started slipping. Since Goku didn't use his full power against Kid Buu, which should be enough to defeat him, there's no need to place Kid Buu above Super Buu as well. We just know that the extent of Goku's power is stronger than Gohan's, who had already been maxed out. It's so easy! Oh, and no material from the manga changed.

[Darkprince410]

My motivation is to take all the material and mix them together without any contradictions. This is ONLY possible if you assume Kid Buu is the strongest and Goku didn't choose to fight Super Buu because of it's size. This is abductive reasoning. We keep eliminating all the scenarios that offer clear contradictions as impossible and whatever we have left, however improbable, must be true.

We also have a clear indication by Goku, following Pure Buu's formation, that he's far weaker than before, exclaiming that they now might be able to do something when beforehand he was adamant that they couldn't. So unless you're thinking that Goku is saying that because he's judging Buu purely on his size, which isn't something that Goku does if he can sense ki, then that doesn't work.

[Desassina]

Let me just say one thing: if we were to consider the material to be whole, then by the time of GT, when no plans for Super existed, Uub fusing with Fat Buu led to a stronger character, with Uub representing Kid Buu. Wouldn't it make more sense for Super Buu to be stronger if Kid Buu fused with Fat Buu, like Evil Buu absorbed Good Buu as well? The point that I want to get across is that Super Buu, as a merged entity (like fusion), is not supposed to exist without its two halves, like we often consider Goku to be the strongest character, because fusion has its time limit. The way I see it, Majuub is like Super Buu without the perks of a Buu, but that won't solve how Kid Buu is even stronger than Buutenks or Buuhan, according to the anime that was very blunt in that matter.

[Akira]

So, basically what you're telling me is there is a single throwaway line of dialog where in the moment Buu was preparing to blow up the earth (and as we know attack signatures can often surpass the user's level of power, going all the way back to the 23rd Budokai and Raditz fight era) that all of this is hinged on as part of some larger argument about who is stronger between Goku or Gohan at the very end of the series? Therefore, Kid Buu has to be stronger to support whatever funky math equation works out that Goku or Gohan is stronger than the other? Okay, got it, I'm going to peace out on this, because it is far too convoluted and unreasonable for me to participate much further. There is no true debate here, and no amount of logic or proof will convince anyone dead set on thinking otherwise. Thank you for explaining it to me, I understand now.

In closing, I'll just say that Vegeta's Number 1 statement was indicative of the fact that Goku was the number 1 Saiyan warrior between the two of them. No matter if Gohan was stronger or not. He never had any beef with Gohan, Gohan surpassed everyone before at the Cell game, and that never made him anything more than mildly miffed. Gohan never had the drive to practice and stay at number 1 anyway, Vegeta's competition was with Goku and always had been. Surpassing Goku was his personal goal, and at this point he was admitting that Goku was number 1 between the two of them, not necessarily number 1 overall. Take that however you want, but that's all that was being said there.

[Desassina]

See, you can point to us using complex logic and get away with being pedantic. I'm referring to your #1 among the Saiyans argument, when even Shenron didn't make the distinction between a pure blooded and half bred one. He said: "five pure hearted Saiyans", and SSJG Goku came to existence with 3 of them being Half-saiyans. There's no point in Vegeta considering Goku alone. Strongest in the universe is strongest in the universe, among those who live.

Now, where's the problem in Goku tapping into more power than he had ever considered before? If he said that it would allow him to go from below Kid Buu to above him, and kill the bubble gum with ease, then it's because power has a range. When Ultimate Gohan was faced with danger, his power didn't increase by a largin margin, and so Goku is allowed to be stronger than him, Kid Buu and Super Buu, without affecting the placement of the last two.

[MajinBrolyYamcha]

the strongest boo is boohan:

Lssj Broly (m10) < SSj Gotenks Post Rosat < Fat Boo = Evil Boo< KId Boo < Good Boo < SSj2 Goku = SSj2 / Majin Vegeta < SSj3 Goku <Super Boo < Buff Boo < Ultimate Gohan < Buutenks < Super Gogeta < Base Vegetto < 1st Form Hirudegarn < Boohan < 2nd Form Hirudegarn < Super Vegetto

[Darkprince410]

the strongest boo is boohan:

Lssj Broly (m10) < SSj Gotenks Post Rosat < Fat Boo = Evil Boo< KId Boo < Good Boo < SSj2 Goku = SSj2 / Majin Vegeta < SSj3 Goku <Super Boo < Buff Boo < Ultimate Gohan < Buutenks < Super Gogeta < Base Vegetto < 1st Form Hirudegarn < Boohan < 2nd Form Hirudegarn < Super Vegetto

Again, please don't make just formula strings like that. That is strongly frowned upon on here.

Additionally, that list is inaccurate by a number of things. Ssj Gotenks (pre RoSaT) is strongly indicated to be at least above Ssj2 Goku and Vegeta, with some implication of him being stronger than Ssj3 Goku as well. After the boys train in the Room, there's no question of Ssj Gotenks being stronger than them. Likewise, Ssj2 Goku and Vegeta were not above Pure Buu or Fat Buu (the pre-split Buu) in terms of power, as Goku was generally fighting evenly with Pure Buu while in his Ssj3 form, and it outright being stated that Goku and the other two Saiya-jin (Gohan and Vegeta) wouldn't have been able to take on Fat Buu on their own, with Ssj2 being the strongest form known for them at the time. Lastly, Ssj Gogeta isn't that different in terms of power than Ssj Gotenks is, as the boys were very close to their fathers in terms of strength, and the resulting fusions between them would be proportionally similar strength wise.

[apex_pretador]

the strongest boo is boohan:

Lssj Broly (m10) < SSj Gotenks Post Rosat < Fat Boo = Evil Boo< KId Boo < Good Boo < SSj2 Goku = SSj2 / Majin Vegeta < SSj3 Goku <Super Boo < Buff Boo < Ultimate Gohan < Buutenks < Super Gogeta < Base Vegetto < 1st Form Hirudegarn < Boohan < 2nd Form Hirudegarn < Super Vegetto

WHAT?
Would you mind putting a few words to explain?

Lastly, Ssj Gogeta isn't that different in terms of power than Ssj Gotenks is, as the boys were very close to their fathers in terms of strength, and the resulting fusions between them would be proportionally similar strength wise.

I disagree (strongly) on this.

If fusion follows proportionate relationship, then how come kids aren't even visibly different from before after visiting ROSAT? Or are they stronger than adults now post ROSAT given how much SS gotenks powered up?

Also, kids pre rosat are "very close" to their fathers , so SS gogeta should be closer to SS gotenks (pre) than SS gotenks (Post). So, does that mean SS gogeta is weaker than SS gotenks (post), or atleast SS3 goku?

[Cipher]

This has always been such a silly debate, but whatever.

Even the anime is perfectly clear that Goku is no match for "Super" Boo earlier, whereas he thinks he can make a go against Pure Boo. The only thing that implies otherwise is one bit of punched-up narration, which is at complete odds with the way the story plays out.

Oh well.

or is it because he can't sustain SS3 for more than a few moments in living world, that's why super buu is too much for him?

No. He clearly says he could have beaten "the fat boo" when he fought him earlier, and thinks he can beat this one, but was planning on Fusion to take down Super Boo.

[MisterGuyMan]

The other poster made a great point. Gohan was obviously considered a Saiyan in BoG in the ritual. Vegeta didn't suddenly chime in and say these half breeds don't count. So they fall under Vegeta's statement when he says Goku was the strongest Saiyan. This is also the NEWEST evidence.

My motivation is to take all the material and mix them together without any contradictions. This is ONLY possible if you assume Kid Buu is the strongest and Goku didn't choose to fight Super Buu because of it's size. This is abductive reasoning. We keep eliminating all the scenarios that offer clear contradictions as impossible and whatever we have left, however improbable, must be true.

We also have a clear indication by Goku, following Pure Buu's formation, that he's far weaker than before, exclaiming that they now might be able to do something when beforehand he was adamant that they couldn't. So unless you're thinking that Goku is saying that because he's judging Buu purely on his size, which isn't something that Goku does if he can sense ki, then that doesn't work.

This isn't conclusive at all. Goku says they can do something now not that they couldn't do something before. This is your interpretation not something that is conclusive. I always read that how they can kill Buu now as opposed to before they couldn't without killing the kids. You can't tell me my interpretation in wrong like I cant say yours is wrong.

What's important is the clear and obvious contradictions which I pointed out before that offer no wiggle room for alternative interpretation.

[Darkprince410]

This isn't conclusive at all. Goku says they can do something now not that they couldn't do something before. This is your interpretation not something that is conclusive. I always read that how they can kill Buu now as opposed to before they couldn't without killing the kids. You can't tell me my interpretation in wrong like I cant say yours is wrong.

What's important is the clear and obvious contradictions which I pointed out before that offer no wiggle room for alternative interpretation.

They had already removed Gohan, Piccolo, and the boys beforehand, yet Goku was still adamant that they couldn't take him on, saying that he was still too strong for them and that they were only "almost there" in terms of weakening him.

Him saying that they could now means that they couldn't before, and we already have Goku's statement on how he and Vegeta would fare against the regular Evil Buu after they got Gohan and the others to safety.

There's not really any other logical way that can be taken other than that Pure Buu was the weaker, and your "clear and obvious contradictions" that "offer no wiggle room" have alternate interpretations, as have been pointed out a number of times before.

[apex_pretador]

This has always been such a silly debate, but whatever.

Even the anime is perfectly clear that Goku is no match for "Super" Boo earlier, whereas he thinks he can make a go against Pure Boo. The only thing that implies otherwise is one bit of punched-up narration, which is at complete odds with the way the story plays out.

Oh well.

or is it because he can't sustain SS3 for more than a few moments in living world, that's why super buu is too much for him?

No. He clearly says he could have beaten "the fat boo" when he fought him earlier, and thinks he can beat this one, but was planning on Fusion to take down Super Boo.

because fat buu is MUCH weaker. He could've done the same thing to fat buu like he did to janemba (M12).

See it like this:
- Goku SS3 = 100
- Fat buu = 50 (nothing to SS3 goku, who can destroy him fully in one blast)
- Super buu = 115 (SS3 goku can't finish him off, and given how he can't sustain this form for a fight, he is scared).
- Buff buu = 150 = gohan
- Kid buu = 95 (initial) , 110 (Mad)

Here's how goku can surpass gohan in a quick time.