If Hit is stronger than Vados, why didn't he steal the cube?

[TheMikado]

How can it be bad writing if the scale was never mwntioned in the actual story?

The percentages were mention. In BoGs it explicitly said 70% of Beerus's full power and in Super is said Rageta made Beerus use around 10%.
We didn't randomly attach numbers to things. They were written into the story.

[Alruneia]

and in Super it's said Rageta made Beerus use around 10%.

And this is the problem. SSJ2 MY BULMA-Vegeta was tanked by Beerus at 10 %, so that implies that 10 % was enough to not take damage. So Vegeta's power should be above 1 % of Beerus' power. Lowballing it, I'd say around 3 %.
Now, for God Kaio-ken x10 Goku to be weaker than Beerus, let's say 99.9% of Beerus, SSJB Goku must be ~10% of Beerus. That's after training with Whis and getting the God boost. God Goku must therefore have been at around... 6 or 7 % of Beerus. In other words, Rage Vegeta was almost half as strong as God Goku.
That's ridiculous... but it's the only way for this to work. If the gap between Rageta and Godku is any larger, it implies that Goku is above Beerus (or that Beerus lied about that 10 % part, of course). If God Goku was at 20 % of Beerus, God Kaio-ken x10 Goku should be at least at 250 %. And Hit was still keeping up with Goku, which implies that his hax and strength together are far above Champa. We don't know how much stronger than Champa Vados really is, however, so it could be argued that Champa x2.5 isn't enough to beat her.
Hit isn't stronger than Vados, because he is far weaker than Champa. Hit's reaction to Champa preparing to destroy him proves this. It's just that the poor writing concerning power completely ruins that idea mathematically.
Super's writing gets easier if you ignore certain things. For instance, Bulma not making the wish to Shenron in the beginning of the arc (this lets us stay in Age 779 and saves the timeline), and God Kaio-ken staying at x2 instead of going to x10 (this lets God Goku be at over 30 % of Beerus without causing contradictions). But this is what we have to work with.

Sorry for the wall. I hope I made sense.

[Overlord78]

How can it be bad writing if the scale was never mwntioned in the actual story?

The percentages were mention. In BoGs it explicitly said 70% of Beerus's full power and in Super is said Rageta made Beerus use around 10%.
We didn't randomly attach numbers to things. They were written into the story.

Well BOG isn't Super as no percentage was given. Now the 10% line I do have a problem with because if SSG or SSB isn't even 10% of Beerus then that would mean that Rageta might have been on a similar level to SSG Goku, which makes Vegeta's rage boost even more ridiculous. If that 10% line didn't exist then this would be much simpler than it is now.

[TheMikado]

How can it be bad writing if the scale was never mwntioned in the actual story?

The percentages were mention. In BoGs it explicitly said 70% of Beerus's full power and in Super is said Rageta made Beerus use around 10%.
We didn't randomly attach numbers to things. They were written into the story.

Well BOG isn't Super as no percentage was given. Now the 10% line I do have a problem with because if SSG or SSB isn't even 10% of Beerus then that would mean that Rageta might have been on a similar level to SSG Goku, which makes Vegeta's rage boost even more ridiculous. If that 10% line didn't exist then this would be much simpler than it is now.

Yes I know that, but only people on this forum or diehard fans are going to know which lines and continuity to follow. The rest of the people who watched BoG and RoF and maybe checking out the Champa arc since its new content are going to saying "Wat, how is SSB Goku x 10KK not stronger than Beerus??!?" when the last they saw SSJ Goku post SSG was close to 70% Beerus levels.

We keep repeating that line to excuse the contradiction but that's because we all know better, 90% of the people who see this later or now aren't going to understand or know that.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

They made it seam like beerus goes out of his way to not go to 10%, if he only needed 9% he would have used just 9 or less.

Beerus owned vegeta with a 10% vs 9% battle because this is how Z works, you're slightly better then you're able to own someone.

Gohan was owned by fat buu BEFORE he ate the dabora cookie. Gohan's ki was enough to make buu be at 60% of his energy gage to be revived. Buu isn't even 2x the power of gohan...yet he OWNED him effortlessly.

Another example vegeta 24k dodria 22k.....vegeta was faster, and even 1 sotted him. I had people tell me "well dodria was off gaurd".. .but that isn't the case. IF it was, then we wouldn't see dodria running from vegeta to not get killed. He was on guard. He even blocked if I recall. He saw the blast in his last moments.

vegeta was 1 and 1/12th dodoria's power and 1 shotted him. Beerus was 1 and 1 10th, which is a better ratio so obviously he would be able to 1 shot him. I put vegeta at like 9% of beeru's power post rage. And although people say he lsot that power, he just used it all up vs beerus, he naturally would get it back after rest, which probably helped his becoming god and growing stronger then his rage boost.

to say raging vegeta ss2 (or 1) >>>ssj blue vegeta.....is well wrong.

It's fair to kaioken goku blue>>>>beerus...BUT that's only a temporary state of being stronger, it's not really surpassing him. It's like saying he surpassed vegeta, and he didn't. He'd win in a fight sure but without considering usage of a technique and a 2 minute power boost....we have vegeta and beerus still being stronger then goku.

now if goku was permanently at that power, he'd have surpassed whis and vados but it's only a very short technique that makes him have a higher power level for like 100 seconds...so not surpassing, but the power level for those few seconds, yeah it's better then even whis.

[Blackstripe]

I don't get why people are so attached to the 6/10/15 scale. Maybe for the same reason they're attached to the old Daizenshuu.

Unlike the guide books. It came straight from Akira during the release of the movies.
And in the movie itself whis states in the end Beerus used 70% power. Which would basically hold true to the same scale.

And it was true...for Battle of Gods. But only Battle of Gods.

[TheMikado]

I don't get why people are so attached to the 6/10/15 scale. Maybe for the same reason they're attached to the old Daizenshuu.

Unlike the guide books. It came straight from Akira during the release of the movies.
And in the movie itself whis states in the end Beerus used 70% power. Which would basically hold true to the same scale.

And it was true...for Battle of Gods. But only Battle of Gods.

Then Rageta 10% is true for Super. I see people dismissing the BoG stuff but then ignoring the comment in Super. If you start applying technicals like that you can pick and chose which rule you want to follow.

[JoeCapricorn]

In Super we have no actual idea where Whis and Vados are (disregarding the 6/10/15 comment from Akira Toriyama), their full power has never been revealed.

As for Beerus and Champa, I had an interesting thought. Let's say Beerus is forced to use 100% of his power in some situation, but the guy he is fighting is still twice as strong. What if Beerus has some ability to go 200% of his power?

I know, it's kind of a dumb idea, but then again it's not new. Fighters improve themselves in battle all the time in Dragon Ball, look at Hit being the most recent. Why not ancient deities of destruction having some uncanny ability to improve themselves during battle as well?

And that's not to say Beerus doesn't somehow grow stronger on his own. It could even be tied to something silly like all that Instant Ramen he ate. Is there any reason why he has to stay a 10 when he can't get up to a 40? And I think in Super, Whis might be a 150 instead of a 15. We will never know, because they have yet to demonstrate their full power.

What if there is a deeper reason for Beerus having Whis as an attendant (and Vados for Champa)? What if their power is also controlled in some way by the staff? Could we find out for sure in future arcs? There's actually a lot of possibilities that do not result in past contradictions. Does it make Beerus and Champa OP? Maybe, but if the staff is a key element, if that gets destroyed or if Beerus is somehow placed very far away from Whis, what then? Maybe we'll never find out but it is rather fun to speculate.

[Geekdom101]

People still take the "6, 10 and 15" for real?

Some people do yeah. Although Toriyama could have easily changed his mind on how much stronger Beerus is compared to Goku. I see that scale only working for the movies if it is to be used.

Almost 100% sure it legit doesnt matter anymore.

[namekiansaiyan]

People still take the "6, 10 and 15" for real?

Some people do yeah. Although Toriyama could have easily changed his mind on how much stronger Beerus is compared to Goku. I see that scale only working for the movies if it is to be used.

Almost 100% sure it legit doesnt matter anymore.

If only the people on power level discussion thread would forget about the scale.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

If only the people on power level discussion thread would forget about the scale.

If only the people on power level discussion thread would stop giving a s*** about power levels.

[TheMikado]

If only the people on power level discussion thread would forget about the scale.

If only the people on power level discussion thread would stop giving a s*** about power levels.

Yeah that's like saying if only the people who were into car racing would stop caring about the car engines in each vehicle... People who are into a hobby want to know how every nut and bolt works. Just look at all thought Star Wars guides. Why should a shonen with a huge overarching power theme be any different when power and the comparison to both their adversaries and their previous levels has been a cornerstone and theme of the franchise.

[Kuririn Fan]

are into a hobby want to know how every nut and bolt works. Just look at all thought Star Wars guides. Why should a shonen with a huge overarching power theme be any different when power and the comparison to both their adversaries and their previous levels has been a cornerstone and theme of the franchise.

No, it's not, it's really not. Maybe for you and power level fanatics, but in general - no.

[TheMikado]

are into a hobby want to know how every nut and bolt works. Just look at all thought Star Wars guides. Why should a shonen with a huge overarching power theme be any different when power and the comparison to both their adversaries and their previous levels has been a cornerstone and theme of the franchise.

No, it's not, it's really not. Maybe for you and power level fanatics, but in general - no.

That's a large large large chunk of the fanbase. I would even say at least 30% if not a lot more if the threads on this forum alone are anything to go by.

[Kuririn Fan]

No, they're very small percentage of the fanbase. Even if the power level threads had billion pages, only a selected couple of members care about that bullshit, compared to 8500 total users.

[Faisal Shourov]

I wonder if Hit can beat Zeno's guards, since whis and Vados are no match for him. Still doesn't make sense why he didn't take the cube by force

[Snow_Lilies]

One thing that I haven't really seen addressed or answered directly is an in-universe explanation for SSJ2 Rageta achieving levels well beyond SSJ3 without transforming into it himself or without bulking up SSJ1 grade style (not that we've particularly explored the limits of SSJ2).

Coming at it from that angle may give us an additional clue.

(Not saying this has to matter in general. You can be on the "bad-writing" side or the "everyone is as strong as they need to be for the plot" side, but once you've said your bit in that regard, repeating it really has no further bearing on the course of this discussion. For what it's worth, I'm in the latter but enjoy these thought experiments to an extent.)

[Big Black Sayian]

I wonder if Hit can beat Zeno's guards, since whis and Vados are no match for him. Still doesn't make sense why he didn't take the cube by force

Is Hit actually stronger than Vados??

[Polyphase Avatron]

I wonder if Hit can beat Zeno's guards, since whis and Vados are no match for him. Still doesn't make sense why he didn't take the cube by force

Is Hit actually stronger than Vados??

No. Not by any reasonable interpretation at least.

[AvatarReiko]

Why people keep saying that Goku is nothing to the Beerus and Champa. Goku fought on par with a 100% Beerus in the battle of gods arc.