Your Problem(s) with DragonBall Super

[ryou766]

Toriyama might change the original ending so then everything will make sense.

We know Uub is still taken into account so It won't be a complete change but I think certain elements will be changed like his age or maybe Goku will train him before the tournament and we'll get a longer one.

I wouldn't know how I'd feel about this.

EoZ wasn't the greatest ending, but it was alright for what it was. Though, in DBS, Goku had told Vegeta about the existence of Oob prior to even meeting him in the 28th WT as opposed to EoZ; where Vegeta is just finding out about the origins of Oob.

[Sonicjamareiz]

Where did this Toriyama hates DBS misconception started because it's getting on my everlasting nerves...

[namekiansaiyan]

Toriyama might change the original ending so then everything will make sense.

We know Uub is still taken into account so It won't be a complete change but I think certain elements will be changed like his age or maybe Goku will train him before the tournament and we'll get a longer one.

I wouldn't know how I'd feel about this.

EoZ wasn't the greatest ending, but it was alright for what it was. Though, in DBS, Goku had told Vegeta about the existence of Oob prior to even meeting him in the 28th WT as opposed to EoZ; where Vegeta is just finding out about the origins of Oob.

End of Z can easily be included with minor difference at any point in Super and Super can continue from there.

[VegettoEX]

Where did this Toriyama hates DBS misconception started because it's getting on my everlasting nerves...

It's not a misconception, really. The first solid citation comes from Toriyama's introduction to the recent 30th anniversary book:

I had put Dragon Ball behind me, but seeing how much that live-action film ticked me off, and how I revised that script for the anime movie and complained about the quality of the TV anime, I suppose somewhere along the line it’s become a series I like too much to ever leave alone.

[Anime Kitten]

Precisely why I think the series is only gonna get better from here on out. If the creator is complaining, then...

Speaking of, not to create another conversation, but did he ever complain about GT?

[Sonicjamareiz]

Complaining about the show is different from hating the show there's no comparison.

[sintzu]

Speaking of, not to create another conversation, but did he ever complain about GT?

As far as I know he only said he considers it a side story.

[Cetra]

Speaking of, not to create another conversation, but did he ever complain about GT?

As far as I know he only said he considers it a side story.

He did not say that like "How much do you like Dragon Ball GT? - Oh, doesn't matter, it's a side story to me" though. He mentioned the side story thing while he recommended GT to the fans.

[Zephyr]

Why do people always treat "side story" as if it's supposed to be a form of disparagement?

[Gyt Kaliba]

Why do people always treat "side story" as if it's supposed to be a form of disparagement?

Because absolutely everything must fit 100% with everything else, absolutely no problem, otherwise it's worthless to some people, for...whatever reason.

[Kuririn Fan]

[
These statements are pure opinion. "GT is bad," "Red Ribbon Army is a great arc," I mean, really? Treating them as fact?

GT being bad is almost a fact and the hate it's getting was the point of sintzu's post in the first place. My point was that Toriyama's name doesn't mean anything and like with Toei, fans can see when something is good and when something isn't.

[LightBing]

A bit late to party. Before I give my contribution, I have to commend Li'l Lemmy for his effort. Honestly, I doubt it will matter much.
When the new arc shows any type of "weakness" the bashing will return in full force. And yes there's a difference between bashing and building a well formed criticism like this thread pretends, putting people into: "haters" and "white knight's" category is aggravating.

I was pretty disheartened with this part of the forum, when the negativism regarding the new arc was in full strength, people concluding it will suck because Black Goku is Tullece II, even without knowing anything about the arc and many more of this sort. I'm also including the unfortunately regular off-topic one liners. This forum become temporarily a place I didn't wanna be, which is sad since I hold it in very high esteem due to it's positive standards.

First I gotta say I'm very positive regarding it and it's continuous improvement even with the bad start. Ok, problems:

Lack of imagination/courage and relying on nostalgia:
Again and again the show has revisited various emblematic moments, instead of creating original content. Vegeta fight vs Magetta is one critical example, that Final Flash is a carbon copy from the Cell Arc.
Callbacks aren't bad, sometimes it can be very well done and highly enjoyable. This isn't the case here, there's an insistence on it which makes me think the writers are afraid of creating new content. Or prefer to play it safe and "recycle" the series since they know it works.
I hope the callbacks are far and spread apart. Let Super create it's own iconic moments!

Inconsistent and bad character portrayals:
Writer A the character acts this way, writer B it acts the opposite. I don't enjoy seeing character flip flop like this, in some causes there's barely an ounce of the true character as intended by Mr.Toriyama. Episode 42 is a case were Goku was awfully written, in this case to make a thin premise happen.

Contradictory Power information
I know some of you don't care about this but I do. I love the redundancy of putting a character a bit stronger than that one but weaker than the other guy, etc... Well, if I enjoy it, it's not redundant after all.
Super is creating inconsistencies at a ever growing rhythm, I liked them to at least build tiers that everyone could understand in wide strokes. It's the bare minimum.

There's a few other small/mid problems that I have, I won't prologue myself much longer or this post will become bigly( ). The awful scheduling, which resulted in bad animation has been apparently solved. It's not a problem anymore.

[Li'l Lemmy]

I'm happy to see the thread being used. Thank you to everyone who is participating and therefore contributing to the effort to keep many other threads free of unfocused negativity.

Well, I suppose I'll pitch in slightly. Everyone knows what my primary issue with the series is: lack of meaningful involvement from the established cast who are not Goku and Vegeta.

It's not quite the "Goku & Vegeta Show" argument. I'm realistic. These are the characters who are popular and more-or-less the face of modern-day DragonBall; it makes sense that they would receive a disproportionate amount of focus compared to everyone else. I suppose my actual underlying issue is that many, many new characters are being introduced, perhaps too many at once, at the cost of screentime for existing characters. This is not necessarily unique to Super; Toriyama-sensei certainly has a habit of introducing characters, making them relevant to the arc and then putting them in the background for the next. It really is (for me) one of his most aggravating habits as a writer. But the problem seems to be exacerbated in Super to a much greater degree. Minimizing so many of the established secondary players is not something I expect from a brand new series; or to be sporting, it's something I might anticipate closer toward the end of the series, not the beginning. Super seems to be a continuation of Kami to Kami more than it does DragonBall Z. This is good or bad depending on your particular perspective. For me, it's a detraction, because it often feels as though one movie has set the tone for the series as a whole when it should instead derive most of its influence from the actual predecessor series that came before the movie. This is the reason we see so much Beerus and Whis, which are certainly wonderful creations deserving of expanded roles, but not ones I want to have in every episode at the expense of other characters being useful, relevant or even just being given lines.

It's no secret to anyone that I particularly dislike the current concept of a "Future Trunks" arc (a sentiment I am aware places me squarely into the minority), namely because I perceive it as a slight against present Trunks and by extension Goten. These are two characters who can be useful and certainly have room for development, but whom I anticipate will mostly get the shaft in favor of resurrecting a character who has already been given plenty of development. It's things like this in Super that frustrate me, because I think that we can do plenty with the cast we have without needing to basically hand over all the non-Goku/Vegeta opportunities to new (Beerus) or resurrected (future Trunks) characters.

Granted, this is just some of what bothers me with regard to Super, and to be fair I do find positive things in it. But as a series, the way it's presently unfolding just doesn't agree with me. Not yet, anyway.


~Da Lemmy

[dbzfan7]

To keep it simple.

-It likes to eat it's cake and try to keep it at the same time. They got two paths with characters, and go in neither direction. They keep it mainly to the adventures of Goku & Vegeta, but don't develop them enough to make them strong heavy lifters of the plot. So they bring in side characters, but don't really do much with them either. Some are likely saved for later, and others are constantly wasted. Either do something with the side characters, or give that time to make our leads more interesting.

-The music has been really bad. Not counting the latest episode which did a good job, the music is pretty forgettable. If it's not forgettable, it's down right horrendous. I think everyone doesn't like that stupid Goku theme. It's sounds like someone farted out a theme there.

-While not Supers fault since it carries from the previous series, tension is all but dead. Ruins any and all fright or care I can have, when there's no real risks. They could waste every character in the series, and it wouldn't matter since there's an easy fix to that.

-The animation is pretty hit and miss. Sometimes they can get a ok fight, rarely they can get a good one, and plenty of times they can make a boring fight. When fighting is the shows greatest weakness, when the show is about fighting, that's not good. On some occasions the characters look pretty good, it's just too bad they don't move so well.

-The contradictions as Kaboom put it.

-The insane nonsensical power levels that are arguably worse than GT's are. Least they gave us more frame of reference, and were more believable. The manga did a good job showing us where everyone stood. It was easy to understand, at least til Boo made it a little more complicated with it's anime adaption.

-Goku feeling a little too much like a parody. I swear it's Teamfourstar Goku I'm watching sometimes. I can recall instances where Kid Goku was smarter than current Goku.

-The over reliance on food gags. There is usually no variety in these. It's usually the same jerking off from Beerus. I'd be fine with these if they were used more sparingly, and cleverly.

-Goten, Trunks, and Marron remaining as kids for no good reason. They should have grown up by now. It's like they just don't want to let go of the past, and want to cling on to nostalgia or something. Which brings me too.

-Over doing some nostalgia. Already covered by another user, so I don't need to say it again.

-The Pilaf Gang. While the new arc can change my mind, they've been so pointless for 3 arcs. They don't add or do anything. They're not funny, add any worthwhile info, and usually waste my time.

[Ozotto]

I just don't understand why the animation, color, etc is so bad.

You'd think with modern technology and techniques it would be greater then the original dragon ball z.

One Punch Man, Fairy Tale, Tokyo Ghoul, Sword Art Online are all modern and new and have relatively really good animation, and art.

Do they know it'll sell regardless so we get an inferior production?

That's my biggest problem.

[ryou766]

Tokyo Ghoul

As a fan of Tokyo Ghoul's manga rather than its anime, no; the animation for Tokyo Ghoul would, at times, be just as bad as Super's.

[Araki]

Tokyo Ghoul

As a fan of Tokyo Ghoul's manga rather than its anime, no; the animation for Tokyo Ghoul would, at times, be just as bad as Super's.

The first season of TG had good moments, but the 2nd, yeah...pretty bad, especially for a short anime. That's to be expected from Studio Pierrot, though.

..but Fairy Tail? Seriously? Never thought i would see it used as example of "really good animation"...it reused footage often and even the colors aren't good at all.

[Hellspawn28]

One Punch Man, Fairy Tale, Tokyo Ghoul, Sword Art Online are all modern and new and have relatively really good animation, and art.

Sword Art Online is known for having awful writing from what I was told. From what I've seen from Tokyo Ghoul, the animation is not that great.

[PsionicWarrior]

I just don't understand why the animation, color, etc is so bad.

You'd think with modern technology and techniques it would be greater then the original dragon ball z.

I agree but it's getting better, I wish it was much more though.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

There's the problems with some characters' ages, of course. Goten and Trunks aren't aging even though we know what Trunks should look like at 14 or so, Marron has barely 3 years left to jump directly from toddler to teenager, there should really be some sign of Bra's existence by this point, and now there's the new mess with Future Mai. But even more important is how at least two things from the end of the manga have been blatantly contradicted. 1) Goku has visited Bulma less than 5 years before the ending, and 2) Goku has spilled all the beans about Oob to Piccolo and Vegeta despite it coming to a surprise to the latter at the tournament later. Neither of these things had to happen one bit, and have just caused inconsistency for no good reason. Same with the age problems.

DBSuper is an anime an audio-visual+a fictional world story, it has no need of following real world logic of X age = Y body appearence and is neither obligated to.
About the "contradictions" with the manga ending:

1. DBSuper would just only turn Bulma´s comment in the manga as just a simple hyperbolic statement from her part.
2. I will give you this one.

As for my own problems with DBSuper:

* The pacing, not a big problem but still somewhat bugging to me, the movies retelling as a whole overstayed their welcome quite a bit.
From the God and God Arc[/i, it was pretty ridiculous to dedicate a whole episode for Vegeta raging over Bulma being bitch slapped by Beerus (as well said slapping being portrayed in a over the top dramatic fashino) and the Super Saiyan God Goku vs Beerus should have been 2 episodes shorter.
From the Resurection ´F Arc, the pacing was again a big problem, since the movie had less plot than DBMovie 18 the retelling arc should have been accordingly shorter than the previous movie retelling, like 5 episodes shorter.
From the Hakaishin Champa Arc, said arc should have been a bit longer than it ended up, like 4 episodes longer, mostly just to be more characterization and backstory to the Universe 6 characters.

More to come later at one point...