Listen to the fans or not

[Kamiccolo9]

You seem to think that your role as a fan gives you some moral high ground to demand better quality.

That's exactly what it means, if I'm supporting something then I want it to be as good as possible.

Take a video game for example, if you're paying 60$ for it then you're going to demand the developer to make sure it runs at the best frame rate, on the highest resolution and has as few bugs and glitches as possible.

If you pay 15$ for a movie ticket then you'll demand the actors to put all they have in it and the special affects be as good as possible.

If you buy a car you're going to demand it to run properly & have a good AC among other things.

What makes Toriyama and Toei so special that they can put out a mediocre product and fans who've supported the franchise for 10+ years can't complain or demand it to be better ?

And what kind of entitled bullshit is this?

If you get a bad car, then you can return it to the dealer for a refund. You don't demand that the dealer personally go in and enhance every single car too your expectations. And if you buy a car without test driving it first, then your an idiot. Research the product you are buying, and you won't get disappointed when you buy it.

"Demanding" that the actors "put their all into it?" Know what your buying before you throw down money on it. If you've already bought the ticket, why should the actors care what you think? You've already paid for the movie!

These people are providing a product. Your job is to buy or not buy a product. It's a very simple relationship. You say they aren't listening to fans; I say that you are sending them mixed signals by buying everything up and then bitching about it. They see numbers, and a few vocal people on the internet. They go with numbers, because numbers aren't subjective.

Speak with your wallet. That's how business works. That's also why they give zero shits about your opinion of Super, because you aren't even paying for it.

So yeah, quit being so entitled. You are illegally watching a show with no western release as of yet, and expect Toriyama and Toei to care about your opinions of the show you are pirating. Why should they remotely give a fuck about what you think? You are stealing from them! And you have the nerve to think that they should cater to your perception of what the fans want, because you've been oh such a good customer and basically giving the shirt off your back to help Toriyama pay for his house purely out of the goodness of your heart, and not because he provides you with a product you like or anything. I mean, how rude of them. You just give and give, and they never seem to want to put out. They should totally be more considerate of fans like you.

[ABED]

If you pay 15$ for a movie ticket then you'll demand the actors to put all they have in it and the special affects be as good as possible.

But that's different from having a say in the creative. There's always a risk when you see a movie that it will be bad. At best, you can vote with your wallet. The Transformers movies are terrible, but what reason is there for Bay to change when people are paying to see them? I enjoyed the first one, but after the next two were so bad, I will no longer watch those movies.

If you buy a car you're going to demand it to run properly & have a good AC among other things.

That's different, you are simply demanding the car run as advertised. You aren't telling them the car should have this feature and that feature. It's the same as if I get an undercooked meal. I damn sure better get what I ordered. That's not the same as me telling the chef what items he should have on his menu.

What makes Toriyama and Toei so special that they can put out a mediocre product and fans who've supported the franchise for 10+ years can't complain or demand it to be better ?

You can complain, but that doesn't mean you have a rightful place in the creative process.

[sintzu]

Why should they remotely give a fuck about what you think ?

You are stealing from them!

And you have the nerve to think that they should cater to your perception of what the fans want, because you've been oh such a good customer.

They should totally be more considerate of fans like you.

Because they're going to ask me and everyone else to pay 35$ for every 12-13 episode set.

If I buy a set or 2 and don't like what I see then you'll say I didn't see all of it and have no right to complain and if I watch it for free and don't like certain things you'll say I have no right to complain because I didn't pay for it.

I've supported the franchise for over 10 years and there are countless fans who've supported it for longer and far better then I ever could so yes, me and other fans have been very good customers.

It's fans like me and countless others who've gotten this franchise to where it is now so yes, they should cater to at least some of our demands.

[Kamiccolo9]

Why should they remotely give a fuck about what you think ?

You are stealing from them!

And you have the nerve to think that they should cater to your perception of what the fans want, because you've been oh such a good customer.

They should totally be more considerate of fans like you.

Because they're going to ask me and everyone else to pay 35$ for every 12-13 episode set.

If I buy a set or 2 and don't like what I see then you'll say I didn't see all of it and have no right to complain and if I watch it for free and don't like certain things you'll say I have no right to complain because I didn't pay for it.

I've supported the franchise for over 10 years and there are countless fans who've supported it for longer and far better then I ever could so yes, me and other fans have been very good customers.

It's fans like me and countless others who've gotten this franchise to where it is now so yes, they should cater to at least some of our demands.

Then don't buy it.
Research the product before you buy it. Use the damn site your posting on. Watch clips on the internet to have an idea of what you're getting into. That's what it's there for. THERE IS A SITE TOO!!!!!!

Toriyama has provided you with Dragon Ball in return for your support. Again, this isn't a charity. You got your product. You are not being mistreated, you are not being defrauded, nobody is making you buy anything, and Dragon Ball isn't a necessity. If you don't like the way things are now, then DON'T SUPPORT IT. It's not difficult. I haven't bought a Dragon Ball related product in years, yet here I am, alive and well.

Toriyama owes you nothing. He offered a product, and you paid for it. Done deal. He owes you nothing, nor do you owe him anything at this point.

[sintzu]

That's different, you are simply demanding the car run as advertised.

It's the same as if I get an undercooked meal. I damn sure better get what I ordered.

You can complain, but that doesn't mean you have a rightful place in the creative process.

That's what I'm demanding out of Super, it's advertised as a sequel to Z so I'm expecting it to at the very least be as good which is what you'd demand from any successor of any product.

That's exactly what we're getting with Super, an underdeveloped product.

So if you order a Pizza you don't have any rightful place to demand what goes on top or what cheese they use ? if you buy fries you don't have a right to demand how much salt you want on them ?

[ABED]

It's fans like me and countless others who've gotten this franchise to where it is now so yes, they should cater to at least some of our demands.

It was Toriyama whose talents got the franchise where it is. And your demands aren't all the same. Whose demands does he listen to?

So if you order a Pizza you don't have any rightful place to demand what goes on top or what cheese they use ? if you buy fries you don't have a right to demand how much salt you want on them ?

That is actually a big difference with the fries because they can easily single you out and it's an easy fix. A TV show is a mass product that they can't cater to everyone. The examples you are using are very different. TV shows and movies aren't customizable products.

[Kamiccolo9]

That's different, you are simply demanding the car run as advertised.

It's the same as if I get an undercooked meal. I damn sure better get what I ordered.

You can complain, but that doesn't mean you have a rightful place in the creative process.

That's what I'm demanding out of Super, it's advertised as a sequel to Z so I'm expecting it to at the very least be as good which is what you'd demand from any successor of any product.

That's exactly what we're getting with Super, an underdeveloped product.

So if you order a Pizza you don't have any rightful place to demand what goes on top or what cheese they use ? if you buy fries you don't have a right to demand how much salt you want on them ?

If only Dragon Ball came with an "I want more/less Goku and more/less Vegata option, where they go to (insert planet of choice here) and fight/mingle/play around with (insert character here) and end up going back to (insert planet here) to party/fight/sleep/eat with enemy/friend."

Because you seriously just compared ordering offered pizza toppings with an author's story. Actually think out your arguments before you post.

[sintzu]

You seriously just compared ordering offered pizza toppings with an author's story. Actually think out your arguments before you post.

Whenever you buy something you're going to demand certain things, when a new product is announced you're going to expect certain things.

Yet when Toriyama offers something or announces something we can't demand or expect anything ? what makes him so special ? because it's HIS story ? so if you buy an under cooked food item you're going to just accept it because it's the chef's product and he understands it better ? or a game that's full of glitches, are you going to say that it's the developer's vision and we have no right to demand fixes for them ?

What I'm asking for will benefit YOU so why are you against it ? why are you against YOUR opinion being heard and taken into account ? as a fan of DB and a consumer in general, wouldn't you want your opinion to have an impact on something and make it better for you and everyone else ?

[Luso Saiyan]

That's what I'm demanding out of Super, it's advertised as a sequel to Z so I'm expecting it to at the very least be as good which is what you'd demand from any successor of any product.

That's exactly what we're getting with Super, an underdeveloped product.

It's advertised as a sequel to Z and that's exactly what it is. Wether it fits your subjective definition of "good" is irrelevant, and they aren't bound to it.

[ryou766]

It's funny because aside from games, I haven't purchased a Dragon Ball product in years. Everything I watch and read is online. They aren't getting my money, so whatever the hell they choose to do is on them.

[Kamiccolo9]

You seriously just compared ordering offered pizza toppings with an author's story. Actually think out your arguments before you post.

Whenever you buy something you're going to demand certain things, when a new product is announced you're going to expect certain things.

Yet when Toriyama offers something or announces something we can't demand or expect anything ? what makes him so special ? because it's HIS story ? so if you buy an under cooked food item you're going to just accept it because it's the chef's product and he understands it better ?

What I'm asking for will benefit YOU so why are you against it ? why are you against YOUR opinion being heard and taken into account ? as a fan of DB and a consumer in general, wouldn't you want your opinion to have an impact on something and make it better for you and everyone else ?

You buy what is advertised. Again, look at the product you are getting before buying it, and you won't waste your money. You seem to have had an incorrect expectation of what you were getting. When ordering pizza, you get to select what goes on the pizza. You don't get to do that with a tv show. That's stupid. They would have to film millions of different versions to accommodate everyone. That's why it's a ridiculously inept comparison.

Because MY opinion has no bearing on this. MY opinion is uninformed, as I have no idea what goes on in Toriyama's head, nor am I able to relate to the situation that he has to work with. MY opinion doesn't automatically overrule that of every fan who disagrees with me. MY opinion does not, and should not, overrule the author's view of what's best for his series. I can look past MY opinion, and see that, since MY opinion is inherently subjective to MYSELF, the best way for Me to relay MY satisfaction, or lack thereof, with the product would be to speak with MY wallet. MY contribution to the Dragon Ball franchise utterly pales in comparison to that of Toriyama, by an insurmountable degree, so I have no right to "demand" anything. Because I'm not an entitled prick, who thinks that my generous support of Toriyama's lifestyle purely out of the goodness of my heart is something that he should have to repay beyond, you know, making the thing that I watch.

[ABED]

Food is a completely different product than a movie, episode, or video game.

I covered the undercooked food example. The food wasn't as advertised. Even a video game with glitches isn't the same as a video game with a lackluster story or gameplay. The glitch means it isn't working properly.

as a fan of DB and a consumer in general, wouldn't you want your opinion to have an impact on something and make it better for you and everyone else ?

1 - I want artists to surprise and entertain me. How will they do that if they are taking my ideas?
2 - There are a lot of fans with diverse opinions. Whose do you take?
3 - My opinion on whether Dragon Ball is soft on character development isn't the same as whether I think a car doesn't work properly or the cook put lettuce on my sandwich when I didn't ask for it. They are completely different products.

[Kamiccolo9]

And I can't believe I've left this out of the last few posts, but we are seriously watching someone proclaim that he has the moral high ground to demand more quality out of a show that he's pirating because he supports the series.

Like, am I the only one who sees the paradoxical clusterfuck of cognitive dissonance here?

[Ajay]

Kamiccolo9, while I agree with some of what you're saying, I think it's important to establishment the difference between feedback and expectations. I think sintzu is asking too much, and absolutely dipping into ridiculous entitlement, but I think his comparisons bring up a talking point.

You cannot dictate how a story plays out. The author is the author; it is their work, and if fans don't like the direction things are going, that's entirely up the author to act on feedback. Giving that feedback, however, is absolutely fine, and well within everyone's rights. You are not "entitled" for offering up criticism and solutions to widely acknowledged issues, but you most certainly are if you demand those changes to be made. Heck, that's why the role of an editor exists. The author is never perfect, and like anything, feedback is immensely helpful. That said, the author will almost always have the final say, and if he chooses not to listen to you, all you can do as a fan is to walk away and hope something changes further down the line.

A relationship between a creator and consumer is absolutely vital, though, and striking a balance between feedback and your own vision is a large part of that. For example, a video game requires listening to user feedback. You cannot balance or design fun without play-testing and feedback. That's a basic principle of games design. It's 100% necessary to collect data and listen to what fans have to say when making changes for the future. Your job as a creator in this position is to strike a balance between your own vision and what your audience enjoys. If you stick your fingers in your ears and pretend your initial vision is perfect, well shit, you fucked up and nobody's going to bother with you.

Feedback is important. Putting your opinion out there is just as much a part of showing how you feel as voting with your wallet. Yes, profits are important, but retaining those profits for the future hinges on bringing in new fans and your long-lasting fans. That's precisely why creative feedback plays a huge part in anything. Once again though, it's up to you as the creator to strike your balance. We've seen Toriyama and other creators do this in the past, so it's not as though feedback is being thrown into the void.

My issue with what you've been saying is that it sounds like you think consumers should have no say in the future of products they've invested in. They absolutely should have a say, but that doesn't equate to a final say.

[Kamiccolo9]

The best feedback is speaking with your wallet, I've said that all along. Fans are more than welcome to criticize the product, hell, I've done that here for as long as I've been a member.

When that crosses the line from "criticizing" to "I'm entitled to a better product because I disagree with the direction that the franchise has taken," is where it goes too far.

Fans are entitled to what is advertised, nothing more. They can ask for more, can make petitions, post in forums, etc. But they have no right to stomp their feet, put their hands over their ears, and shout into the void that they are being mistreated because they made Toriyama who he is or other such nonsense.

My feedback in this thread has been purely at Sinzu's policy of "demanding that they accommodate fans," which is why it came across that way. I was not addressing realistic, constructive criticism. I was addressing this fan superiority mindset.

[ABED]

You cannot balance or design fun without play-testing and feedback. That's a basic principle of games design. It's 100% necessary to collect data and listen to what fans have to say when making changes for the future. Your job as a creator in this position is to strike a balance between your own vision and what your audience enjoys. If you stick your fingers in your ears and pretend your initial vision is perfect, well shit, you fucked up and nobody's going to bother with you.

I can't speak to game design, so I'll use producing a TV show or movie. The capital required to produce either is tremendous, so you do need to get people to see it, but opinions are diverse and can change over time, so how do you take that into account. No, artists shouldn't put their heads in the sand, but if you truly believe in what you've created and think there's an audience or will eventually be, why change your story to suit them if for instance it hurts the story? This is especially important when you are showing the audience something new. Games strike me as different because of the inherent nature of games being interactive.

If the audience has any say, it's indirect by either not watching, reading, laughing, etc.

[sintzu]

I think sintzu is asking too much, and absolutely dipping into ridiculous entitlement.

What you said is what I've been trying to say but you worded it better while I made it look like entitlement and that's not what I wanted, I just want the people working on Super or any product to be more connected with the fanbase which I think is a reasonable request.

[ABED]

I think sintzu is asking too much, and absolutely dipping into ridiculous entitlement.

What you said is what I've been trying to say but you worded it better while I made it look like entitlement and that's not what I wanted, I just want the people working on Super or any product to be more connected with the fanbase which I think is a reasonable request.

But the fanbase has very differing opinions. This forum proves that. Whom should they listen to?

[sintzu]

But you don't seem to understand that the fanbase has very differing opinions. This forum proves that. Whom should they listen to?

Super's 5th episode was hated by nearly everyone so if you were running Toei, wouldn't you at the very least take a look at it to see what's going on ? to see how it can be prevented in future episodes ?

If you have a restaurant and everyone was complaining about the fish for example, wouldn't you look into it ?

I'm not saying they have to listen to every opinion cause that's impossible but if there's an opinion that nearly everyone agrees on and is being talked about then they should at the very least take it into account.

[ABED]

But you don't seem to understand that the fanbase has very differing opinions. This forum proves that. Whom should they listen to?

Super's 5th episode was hated by nearly everyone so if you were running Toei, wouldn't you at the very least take a look at it to see what's going on ? to see how it can be prevented in future episodes ?

If you have a restaurant and everyone was complaining about the fish for example, wouldn't you look into it ?

I'm not saying they have to listen to every opinion cause that's impossible but if there's an opinion that nearly everyone agrees on and is being talked about then they should at the very least take it into account.

Sure, but fans are overstating the issue. In any TV show, especially one where they are producing 50 or so episodes per year, not all of them are going to be gems. And chances are that they know the episode wasn't that good.

You keep going back to the food example and it's not a good one as that's so different from producing a TV show. That's an easy fix and there's immediate feedback, plus there are numbers to back up the complaints. If few people buy your fish, then the customer is voting with their wallet.