How could/should Black and Zamasu be defeated?

[HeroR]

The creature in which he acquired his immortality from was referred to as the Immortal Phoenix. We don't know when specifically the phoenix granted him eternal life because it's never made clear, though he did mistakenly try to give it to Goku and had to be reminded that it was gone by Turtle. Our only other confirmed instances of immortality are the cyborgs whom we know have eternal youth as part of the package because #18 was never depicted to have aged over the years.

I think we need to keep in mind that this statement is coming from a myopic point of view. Zamasu perceives himself to be above the machinations of humanity. He truly thinks of himself as being divine, and when that belief system is coupled with the immortality granted by a powerful wish fulfilling dragon, the notion of his self-ability is bound to increase as a result. His immortality has been contradicted by Trunks impaling him, though. It's not the equivalent of indestructibility, otherwise the blade would have held no impact and Zamasu wouldn't have a reason to avoid any of his opponent's attacks in the first place if they can cause literally no damage to him.

You mean the same Phoenix who died of food poisoning? Also, Roshi never said he got eternal life from the Phoenix, so that is speculation on your part. The cyborgs are also not immortal. Toriyama confirmed that they do aged, just slowly.

By all accounts, Zamasu is an immortal.

[Lionel]

Turtle stated that Roshi had drunken an immortality elixir and the only possible source from which that could have come from, given what we know, is the Immortality Phoenix. Regarding the cyborgs -- Gero acknowledged that his reason for becoming a cyborg had to do with gaining eternal life when questioned by #18. Aging or not, immortality is still permissible under the context, presumably the same would be applicable to Zamasu as he requested for immortality, not eternal youth, and yes, there is a difference between the two.

[Cetra]

Turtle stated that Roshi had drunken an immortality elixir

Roshi was the one saying it. Right before he said he lied.

[HeroR]

Turtle stated that Roshi had drunken an immortality elixir and the only possible source from which that could have come from, given what we know, is the Immortality Phoenix. Regarding the cyborgs -- Gero acknowledged that his reason for becoming a cyborg had to do with gaining eternal life when questioned by #18. Aging or not, immortality is still permissible under the context, presumably the same would be applicable to Zamasu as he requested for immortality, not eternal youth, and yes, there is a difference between the two.

Gero was full of crap, especially since Toriyama said that the androids age, just very slow. That isn't immorality, that is being long lived like a Kai.

[Lionel]

Turtle stated that Roshi had drunken an immortality elixir

Roshi was the one saying it. Right before he said he lied.

The elixir reference predates that instance. [spoiler][/spoiler]

Turtle stated that Roshi had drunken an immortality elixir and the only possible source from which that could have come from, given what we know, is the Immortality Phoenix. Regarding the cyborgs -- Gero acknowledged that his reason for becoming a cyborg had to do with gaining eternal life when questioned by #18. Aging or not, immortality is still permissible under the context, presumably the same would be applicable to Zamasu as he requested for immortality, not eternal youth, and yes, there is a difference between the two.

Gero was full of crap, especially since Toriyama said that the androids age, just very slow. That isn't immorality, that is being long lived like a Kai.

So Gero is capable of creating an energy reactor that is infinitely resuable with an unending power supply yet mechanising his body can't guarantee him eternal life? According to you, he essentially had his own brain removed and placed into a cybernetic body then proceeded to lie directly at #18 concerning his motives for turning himself into a cyborg. If that information held no veracity to itself then it wouldn't have been established in the first place.

[Chiki]

At the end, however they defeat Zamasu, Goku will call Zeno, and say it will be like this.

Goku: I've got the friend I told ya about Zen-chan.

Zen-chan: huh, this kaioshin?.

Goku: He needs to understand us mortals better, I think ya can help him, and in turn he can be your friend, he's immortal so he will never die out on you, unlike me, 'cause I'm a mortal.

And Zamasu will finally find peace with Zen-chan, He will appear again in the omniverse tournament in Goku's team, Which will be also be joined by Vegeta, Trunks and Uub (let's hope for a Time skip) too. (This is all my idea, I want it to go this way, I would love Zamasu reedeming himself and being a teammate, he could be in Dragon Ball what Van is for the Seven Deadly Sins)

I also like the idea of Zamasu becoming an antihero, but he's already far more evil than Vegeta ever was. Trunks could never accept that. Ever.

Immortality is not an absolutistic defence against death. If it were then those such as Roshi would be wholly unkillable. We were already shown that Zamasu's bodily integrity has limitations when Future Trunks ran his sword clean through him. Moreover, we've never witnessed anyone regenerate from entirely nothing; even Buu's ability to reconstitute his body was dependent on whether a single molecule of his being was still in existence. Nothing has demonstrated that Zamasu's regeneration would permit him to come back from being disintegrated to nothing. His immortality as of now appears to be like a cross between Garlic Jr's and Buu's.

Point taken about Black's rampage across the universe. I had forgotten that his killing spree preceded coming to Earth. It paints him in an even worst light, though.

In Japanese, fujimi means both invincible and immortal. Nothing can kill the guy.

[HeroR]

Turtle stated that Roshi had drunken an immortality elixir

Roshi was the one saying it. Right before he said he lied.

The elixir reference predates that instance. [spoiler][/spoiler]

Turtle stated that Roshi had drunken an immortality elixir and the only possible source from which that could have come from, given what we know, is the Immortality Phoenix. Regarding the cyborgs -- Gero acknowledged that his reason for becoming a cyborg had to do with gaining eternal life when questioned by #18. Aging or not, immortality is still permissible under the context, presumably the same would be applicable to Zamasu as he requested for immortality, not eternal youth, and yes, there is a difference between the two.

Gero was full of crap, especially since Toriyama said that the androids age, just very slow. That isn't immorality, that is being long lived like a Kai.

So Gero is capable of creating an energy reactor that is infinitely resuable with an unending power supply yet mechanising his body can't guarantee him eternal life? According to you, he essentially had his own brain removed and placed into a cybernetic body then proceeded to lie directly at #18 concerning his motives for turning himself into a cyborg. If that information held no veracity to itself then it wouldn't have been established in the first place.

Asked Toriyama. He is the one who said that the androids do age, so they don't have eternal youth or life.

[kinisking]

At the end, however they defeat Zamasu, Goku will call Zeno, and say it will be like this.

Goku: I've got the friend I told ya about Zen-chan.

Zen-chan: huh, this kaioshin?.

Goku: He needs to understand us mortals better, I think ya can help him, and in turn he can be your friend, he's immortal so he will never die out on you, unlike me, 'cause I'm a mortal.

And Zamasu will finally find peace with Zen-chan, He will appear again in the omniverse tournament in Goku's team, Which will be also be joined by Vegeta, Trunks and Uub (let's hope for a Time skip) too. (This is all my idea, I want it to go this way, I would love Zamasu reedeming himself and being a teammate, he could be in Dragon Ball what Van is for the Seven Deadly Sins)

I also like the idea of Zamasu becoming an antihero, but he's already far more evil than Vegeta ever was. Trunks could never accept that. Ever.

Far more evil than Vegeta? How? Vegeta didn't kill for justice... even if Zamasu's is warped. Plus Zamasu has killed far less than Vegeta has.

[fadeddreams5]

Yeah, let's not even sugar coat it. Vegeta was more evil than Zamasu, Black, and all the androids combined. If he was a SSJ by the time he arrived on Earth, he'd be no different than Frieza.

[HeroR]

Far more evil than Vegeta? How? Vegeta didn't kill for justice... even if Zamasu's is warped. Plus Zamasu has killed far less than Vegeta has.

It is weird that fans tend to forget that Vegeta was a mass-murdering space pirate who killed with a huge grin on his face.

So when I see people say Zamasu is irredeemable, I just point out that Vegeta once massacre a Namekian village and laughed about it when none of them were wished back, how he blew up a stadium where his family was to provoke Goku to fight him as Majin Vegeta, or point out that Vegeta wanted immortality so he could rule the universe.

[Chiki]

Zamasu and Black have been going around killing people in every planet they could find, haven't they? Together they've probably already killed more people than I can imagine.

<Link to illegal scanlation site removed by moderator>

"Countless planets"

Probably more than Frieza and Vegeta ever have combined.

Also I fail to see how it makes a difference if Zamasu is doing it for the sake of justice. If John raped and murdered a kid for the sake of justice, and Jack did it for fun, then that seems equally evil to me.

[FoolsGil]

Now would be a good time to reveal the U10 God of Destruction, and maybe this one uses magic not chi. Beers or Goku destroys Zamasu's body, and the new God of Destruction seals the soul in a jar before Zamasu could regen a new body.

Beat Black with some good ol fisticuffs. Bring back God Kaioken and merc him. Because please don't let God Pink be the new hero transformation. Please.

[HeroR]

Zamasu and Black have been going around killing people in every planet they could find, haven't they? Together they've probably already killed more people than I can imagine.

<Link to illegal scanlation site removed by moderator>

"Countless planets"

Probably more than Frieza and Vegeta ever have combined.

Also I fail to see how it makes a difference if Zamasu is doing it for the sake of justice. If John raped and murdered a kid for the sake of justice, and Jack did it for fun, then that seems equally evil to me.

One is doing what they believe is right and feel that they're creating a better world. Freeza and Vegeta killed and tormented people for fun, conquest, and profit. Also Freeza had a giant empire that expanded the universe and unlike Black who took a year to clear Earth, Freeza and Vegeta destroyed planets in days and minutes.

So, Black and Zamasu are equally evil to Freeza and Vegeta. However, at least with Black and Zamasu you can sympathize in the sense that they think they're the good guys, while Freeza and Vegeta were scumbags and loved it. Yet, Vegeta was redeemed and all his sins are sweep under the rug, despite all the people he coldly murdered. So I call BS on the whole, 'too irredeemable' with all the blood on Vegeta's hands. And not let's even get started on Fat Buu.

[jplaya2023]

i don't understand why Whis is so passive agressive in Super. He has the ability to kill black and be done with it. He could also do something with F zamazu as well

[Lionel]

Immortality is not an absolutistic defence against death. If it were then those such as Roshi would be wholly unkillable. We were already shown that Zamasu's bodily integrity has limitations when Future Trunks ran his sword clean through him. Moreover, we've never witnessed anyone regenerate from entirely nothing; even Buu's ability to reconstitute his body was dependent on whether a single molecule of his being was still in existence. Nothing has demonstrated that Zamasu's regeneration would permit him to come back from being disintegrated to nothing. His immortality as of now appears to be like a cross between Garlic Jr's and Buu's.

Point taken about Black's rampage across the universe. I had forgotten that his killing spree preceded coming to Earth. It paints him in an even worst light, though.

In Japanese, fujimi means both invincible and immortal. Nothing can kill the guy.

"Invincible" in this manga is very loosely defined and subject to interpretation. Are you implying that Zamasu is absolutely incapable of being damaged or destroyed no matter if it was Beerus, Whis, or Zeno attacking him? I think context is important here. The term "immortal" has been used to describe more than one character before, including Buu.

Chapter: 466 (DBZ 272), P1.3
Context: after Boo’s big attack makes a crater
Vegeta: “…Wh-what the?...Ridiculous; he’s st-strong, and to top it off immortal too…Damn it all…”

Roshi was the one saying it. Right before he said he lied.

The elixir reference predates that instance. [spoiler][/spoiler]

Gero was full of crap, especially since Toriyama said that the androids age, just very slow. That isn't immorality, that is being long lived like a Kai.

So Gero is capable of creating an energy reactor that is infinitely resuable with an unending power supply yet mechanising his body can't guarantee him eternal life? According to you, he essentially had his own brain removed and placed into a cybernetic body then proceeded to lie directly at #18 concerning his motives for turning himself into a cyborg. If that information held no veracity to itself then it wouldn't have been established in the first place.

Asked Toriyama. He is the one who said that the androids do age, so they don't have eternal youth or life.

Normally I would acknowledge Toriyama's creative decision, but in this case I'm going to have to take what he says with a grain of salt like his numerical estimation for the relative powers of Goku, Beerus, and Whis. The portrayal in the manga shows the cyborgs as seemingly not having aged a day, even in the future timeline, despite roughly 20 years having elapsed. Moreover, the character bio for #18 in the Daizenshuu states clearly that she doesn't age.

Artificial Human No.18
An artificial human created by Doctor Gero
History:In the future where Goku died from his infectious disease, she and No.17 pushed the limits of evil and reduced the Earth to ruins. Trunks survived as a warrior, but when Gohan died even he could no longer see any escape, and so he used the time machine his mother Bulma created to go to a world where Goku was alive. Through this, a different future was created where Goku survived. Having powered up, Trunks then returned and defeated No.18. In the world of the present she marries Krillin, and gives birth to a daughter named Marron. She’s the mightiest of wives: extremely beautiful, strong, and eternally youthful. She and No.17 are actually twin siblings.

[Chiki]

Fuck, I thought it was ok to just post the link of one manga page. Sorry mods

One is doing what they believe is right and feel that they're creating a better world. Freeza and Vegeta killed and tormented people for fun, conquest, and profit. Also Freeza had a giant empire that expanded the universe and unlike Black who took a year to clear Earth, Freeza and Vegeta destroyed planets in days and minutes.

So, Black and Zamasu are equally evil to Freeza and Vegeta. However, at least with Black and Zamasu you can sympathize in the sense that they think they're the good guys, while Freeza and Vegeta were scumbags and loved it. Yet, Vegeta was redeemed and all his sins are sweep under the rug, despite all the people he coldly murdered. So I call BS on the whole, 'too irredeemable' with all the blood on Vegeta's hands. And not let's even get started on Fat Buu.

In ethics you can do intuition tests to see if something is worse than the other. We use this all the time.

So, let's compare John and Jack. John kidnapped, raped Elizabeth for 10 years, then finally ended her suffering. Jack did the same thing but with Mary. The only difference between John and Jack's actions is the motive: John did it because he thought it was fun, whereas Jack thought it actually increased the overall utility of the world to kidnap, rape and kill Mary.

My personal intuition here is that they're equally bad people.

Fat Buu doesn't even count. He has no moral responsibility for his past actions. Let's consider 3 Buus:

1. Fat Buu before Evil Buu
2. Kid Buu
3. Fat Buu after Evil Buu

Buu 3 has no responsibility for the actions of Buu 1 because they are different persons. The definition of persons is widely agreed upon to involve personality. When Buu expelled the evil inside him, his personality changed and it was too different from his original, more evil self. So you cannot say that Buu 1 and Buu 3 are the same people. They are different because of the major difference in personality.

Suppose Hitler had a brain tumor that caused him to have no moral compass (let's just assume it was on the part of his brain responsible for morality). Suppose World War 2 ended up differently and they removed his brain tumor, gaining a moral compass as a result, and he no longer thought it was justified to kill Jews and thought it was bad. Do you think he's still responsible for his actions? Frankly it would be juvenile and short-sighted to say he is.

Sorry if this all sounds a little dark but it's what we do in ethics classes.

[HeroR]

Not seeming to age doesn't mean eternal youth. Bulma's mom hasn't aged a day since her introduction and no one has claim she has eternal youth and will live forever.

Also, Word of God > Daizenshuu, since it's Toriyama's work. The Daizenshuu also claimed that Babidi and Dadura took Buu's egg from Earth since there wasn't enough energy to revive him, yet Super states Trunks killed Babibi and Dabura before they could wake Buu.

[Lionel]

Bulma's mother retaining her looks is an unexplained aberration. If I had to guess, it likely has to do with her genes and possible life style choices (compared with Bulma who was shown to be a smoker in the Buu arc and has been in some fairly stressful situations over the course of the manga). Some people just look naturally young over the course of their lifetime despite being chronologically older.

I would dispute that the manga's contents supersede Toriyama's word. Before you criticise me, just keep in mind that Toriyama isn't exactly known for being thoughtful and consistent with his writing. He's a spontaneous "fly by the seat of your pants" type of writer who often creates things in the moment (even though I do think he might have some rough bare bones of a storyboard written down or thought of in his mind). Some of his comments are subject to scrutiny and possible contradiction like his belief that Super Saiyan was only a 10x multiplier. If we took his word literally then Goku getting the upperhand against Freeza after transforming wouldn't make sense because Goku had already attempted a Kaioken with a higher multiplier than 10 and it failed to do anything more than char Freeza's hand while at 50% of his maximum strength.

I think by the time Dabura and Babidi showed up, Trunks had already become powerful enough to show up on their radar, so to speak. By the time the Future Trunks arc began he was already pressuring a post-U6 tournament SSJ3 Goku in the Super manga.

There's corroborative evidence to prove that the cyborgs are immortal -- not just with #18's profile, but Gero's as well.

Artificial Human No.20
His true identity is Doctor Gero
History:Known as a mad scientist, he was employed by the Red Ribbon Army. Even after the army’s destruction, he immersed himself in developing artificial humans in order to get revenge on Goku.
First Appearance: chapter 337
Special Characteristics: This is Doctor Gero’s form after he restructured himself into an artificial human to gain eternal life. Though he’s stronger than No.19, he’s still considerably inferior to No.17 and No.18. Even so, Doctor Gero is truly a genius, familiar with everything from cutting-edge mechatronics to biotechnology.

[Khin]

Also, Word of God > Daizenshuu, since it's Toriyama's work. The Daizenshuu also claimed that Babidi and Dadura took Buu's egg from Earth since there wasn't enough energy to revive him, yet Super states Trunks killed Babibi and Dabura before they could wake Buu.

The Daizenshuu don't say anything about Babidi leaving the Earth with Boo's ball.

[HeroR]

Bulma's mother retaining her looks is an unexplained aberration. If I had to guess, it likely has to do with her genes and possible life style choices (compared with Bulma who was shown to be a smoker in the Buu arc and has been in some fairly stressful situations over the course of the manga). Some people just look naturally young over the course of their lifetime despite being chronologically older.

I would dispute that the manga's contents supersede Toriyama's word. Before you criticise me, just keep in mind that Toriyama isn't exactly known for being thoughtful and consistent with his writing. He's a spontaneous "fly by the seat of your pants" type of writer who often creates things in the moment (even though I do think he might have some rough bare bones of a storyboard written down or thought of in his mind). Some of his comments are subject to scrutiny and possible contradiction like his belief that Super Saiyan was only a 10x multiplier. If we took his word literally then Goku getting the upperhand against Freeza after transforming wouldn't make sense because Goku had already attempted a Kaioken with a higher multiplier than 10 and it failed to do anything more than char Freeza's hand while at 50% of his maximum strength.

I think by the time Dabura and Babidi showed up, Trunks had already become powerful enough to show up on their radar, so to speak. By the time the Future Trunks arc began he was already pressuring a post-U6 tournament SSJ3 Goku in the Super manga.

There's corroborative evidence to prove that the cyborgs are immortal -- not just with #18's profile, but Gero's as well.

Artificial Human No.20
His true identity is Doctor Gero
History:Known as a mad scientist, he was employed by the Red Ribbon Army. Even after the army’s destruction, he immersed himself in developing artificial humans in order to get revenge on Goku.
First Appearance: chapter 337
Special Characteristics: This is Doctor Gero’s form after he restructured himself into an artificial human to gain eternal life. Though he’s stronger than No.19, he’s still considerably inferior to No.17 and No.18. Even so, Doctor Gero is truly a genius, familiar with everything from cutting-edge mechatronics to biotechnology.

But even the manga never claimed the androids were immortal, especially since they can be killed, and give how 'right' Gero tends to be, I take what he says with a grain of salt.

And Toriyama isn't writing by the seat of his pants in interviews, like him knowing that he retcon Buu's origins.