Toyotaro Goku & Toei Goku

[PsionicWarrior]

He mostly thought it was not his place as a dead person, but that is faith, and it ruins him everytime but that is just how he is (was), you can hate Goku for some decisions he made in Z, but it doesn't mean he has no brain cells and can't even count up to 6 lol

[THEGOKU]

Post-Freeza Goku doesn't have much character anyway. Toei's DBS Goku is just a dumber version of that.

DBS Goku is a different character. Original Goku is naive, too kind-hearted, but not stupid. I disagree with you saying there is no evolution, I believe he gained wisdom during the Cell and especially the Buu arc. In dbs Goku has been reduced to someone who's only good at fighting, and the rest is just a big embarrassment, "oh, Monaka has the same ki as Beerus, what a coincidence!" Come on give me a break mate lol

Whatever wisdom Goku gains in the Cell arc he effectively pisses on during the Boo Saga. The reason he chose to stay dead is because he thinks he makes things worse by being there, which is certainly true cause much of the Cell arc happens because of him being a jackass. Not that the others don't help but he's still to blame. So, the next logical choice for him should a threat arise is to not fuck around with it and end it when an opportunity presents itself.

If Goku REALLY learned anything from the Cell arc, he'd have used Super Saiyan 3, broken Vegeta instantly and ended things right then and there. Instead, he does the same thing that leads to much of the Cell arc escalating: he puts his fighting boner above all else. He even admits to being a shit head when he say "Yyyeeeahhh, I could have beaten Boo but I didn't want to cause the kids need to fight without me!"

So let me see if I understand this: the kids, the 7 and 8-year-olds, are being put in a position where they've got to fight the most dangerous being in the universe because he didn't learn jack shit from before and played around with Vegeta? This stuff right here is why I hate Goku's guts. He's a selfish prick who everyone loves even though he does stuff like that.

It is the stuff like that I enjoy honestly because he never really wants to be the hero. An those things he does is because he just wants to have someone else be responsible so if he isn't able to someone else can. On another note that episode with him fighting "Monaka" was the worst episode when it comes to making him look stupid. I honestly hated it.

[ekrolo2]

He mostly thought it was not his place as a dead person, but that is faith, and it ruins him everytime but that is just how he is, you can hate Goku for some decisions he made in Z, but it doesn't mean he has no brain cells and can't even count up to 6 lol

It isn't his place as a dead person to get involved in matters of the living but it IS his place to make things WORSE for the living?! And no, just saying "Well that's how he is!" isn't an excuse. Freeza is a mass murdering lunatic because that's just how he is, does that make his actions excusable? Kid Boo is a monster of mass destruction because that's how he is, does that make his actions okay? Oh but Goku doesn't go around bashing puppies heads in like Freeza and Boo do in their spare time so I guess that makes him the good guy?

It is the stuff like that I enjoy honestly because he never really wants to be the hero. An those things he does is because he just wants to have someone else be responsible so if he isn't able to someone else can. On another note that episode with him fighting "Monaka" was the worst episode when it comes to making him look stupid. I honestly hated it.

Let him want someone else to act responsible if he wants to, just don't make it harder for everyone by being a selfish dickhead too. That's what he does to Goten and Trunks in the Boo Saga, he causes a monumental catastrophe then when he has a final chance to salvage things, he fucks off and leaves the little kids to clean up after him.

Once again, if the characters stopped treating him as some stand-up guy I wouldn't mind this but when I hear Old Kai talk about how "special" Goku is during his fight with Hit, I can't help but groan. Don't even get me started on Goku's fans, if there's one shonen protagonist who doesn't deserve this legion of followers who think he's the greatest guy ever, it is most assuredly this asshole.

[PsionicWarrior]

Dude the kids went SSJ3 during Fusion, do you realize what this means lol

[PsionicWarrior]

It isn't his place as a dead person to get involved in matters of the living but it IS his place to make things WORSE for the living?! And no, just saying "Well that's how he is!" isn't an excuse. Freeza is a mass murdering lunatic because that's just how he is, does that make his actions excusable? Kid Boo is a monster of mass destruction because that's how he is, does that make his actions okay? Oh but Goku doesn't go around bashing puppies heads in like Freeza and Boo do in their spare time so I guess that makes him the good guy?

I don't share this perspective, the way I see it Goku has repeatedly been naive against his foes but it is the consequence of his acts that are bad and not his internal process,
Him showing mercy and giving the opportunity of a second life without evil does not make him a ****head, but someone who has (way) too much trust in humanity,
If anything I don't see him as the ****head you portray him, but someone genuine and making mistakes, like a normal human being, maybe the writers at Toei have a gripe with original Goku too

[ekrolo2]

It isn't his place as a dead person to get involved in matters of the living but it IS his place to make things WORSE for the living?! And no, just saying "Well that's how he is!" isn't an excuse. Freeza is a mass murdering lunatic because that's just how he is, does that make his actions excusable? Kid Boo is a monster of mass destruction because that's how he is, does that make his actions okay? Oh but Goku doesn't go around bashing puppies heads in like Freeza and Boo do in their spare time so I guess that makes him the good guy?

I don't share this perspective, the way I see it Goku has repeatedly been naive against his foes but it is the consequence of his acts that are bad and not his internal process,
Him showing mercy and giving the opportunity of a second life without evil does not make him a dickhead, but someone who has (way) too much trust in humanity,
If anything I don't see him as the dickhead you portray him, but someone genuine and making mistakes, like a normal human being, maybe the writers at Toei have a gripe with original Goku too

Goku certainly doesn't give Cell another chance, he just tells Gohan to kill the bastard over and over again. He also doesn't spare Boo when he first turns Super Saiyan 3 out of the kindness of his heart, he's just doing it to throw Goten and Trunks against a monster he knows he can fucking kill. He says so himself later on! He's abandoning the planet to clean up a mess that HE FUCKING ESCALATED! because he's dead and shouldn't get involved in the living world anymore.

Except when it suits him of course. See, in Goku's retarded mind, it's okay for him, a dead man, to involve himself in a tournament for the living, fight an enemy that is exclusively a problem for the living, escalate said problem but its NOT his right to clean that mess up?!

You can't write Goku realizing his selfishness causes issues at the end of the Cell arc then expect me to be fine with him being monumentally selfish later on! That's not how you write a character with anything approaching consistency! It isn't any more excusable than how Freeza, after being revived, chooses to remain an evil bastard when he's been given a second chance to turn things around for himself and maybe avoid going to hell again. Speaking of F, I love how he talks about being more decisive after Freeza destroys the Earth then basically laughs off character development by saying he and Vegeta can't work together.

Goku is not wise after the Cell arc. He's not a stand-up guy, he's just as bad as everyone he fights. He's just as stuck in his own, destructive ways as Freeza and Cell and Boo, the only reason he's the "good guy" is because he doesn't go around beating puppies up in his free time. There is no excusing Goku later on, he's progressively a bigger and bigger piece of shit and the fact everyone loves him is one of the most baffling things about this franchise I've ever seen.

[PsionicWarrior]

Goku certainly doesn't give Cell another chance

I was more thinking of Ginyu or Freeza, for the rest vs Cell what he knew is that Gohan was their only hope, vs Buu he couldn't afford it because he still had to teach the kids Fusion and time was running out, on top of the eventuality he couldn't beat Buu in time and also the whole faith thing with the kids that you hate.

[Lord Beerus]

When you have a series that has episodes written by many different writers, there are bound to be some different and specific character traits they will either exaggerate or downplay for the purpose of the plot or any given particular scenario for an episode they write. For the most part, Toei's portrayal of Goku as whole in Super has been fine with just few instances of the handling of the character that make go "huh?". I've never seen what the major differences are between Toyatoro's manga and the anime Toei produce in regards to Goku's characterisation, as in a nutshell, both interpretations of the original story draft from Toriyama have gotten it largely on the appropriate scale with no serious deviations. I do think the comparison is kinda unfair given the Super anime is weekly show with multiple writers all of which have different preference for how they may interpret the cast, while the Super manga written by one man and is monthly production and as such doesn't have the time to explore that deeply into characterisation of certain members of the cast.

[ekrolo2]

Goku certainly doesn't give Cell another chance

I was more thinking of Ginyu or Freeza, for the rest vs Cell what he knew is that Gohan was their only hope, vs Buu he couldn't afford it because he still had to teach the kids Fusion and time was running out, on top of the eventuality he couldn't beat Buu in time and also the whole faith thing with the kids that you hate.

He never gives Cell a chance. Ever. He just decides this guy is irredeemably evil and must die. But the guy who murdered his best friend? He'll give him three fucking chances! All of which end with some variation of Freeza nearly killing him.

Except Goku blatantly says he could have beaten the Fat Boo when he fights him on Earth, meaning he could've ended all of this shit right then and there and he could have passed on without issues to worry about. He doesn't say "I could have killed Boo but didn't have time." he fucking says he could've killed him but just decided to throw the fucking kids at him instead. If Goten and Trunks were responsible for causing the hatching of Boo I could understand Goku's lesson of "clean your shit up without me" more. But its not their fault! He messed around with Vegeta and allowed Babidi to gather the energy required to release Boo!

My disdain for the boys isn't even the problem here. In fact, I feel bad for them! They're being thrown at the most dangerous being in the universe a bunch of other shit heads could have prevented from being reborn and are expected to clean up their mess.

Imagine if Batman pissed off Darkseid and caused a massive invasion of Earth then fucked off to let his 10-year-old kid handle it by himself while he goes off to do whatever. We wouldn't be calling Batman a stand up guy then would we?

[PsionicWarrior]

He never gives Cell a chance. Ever.

Man I just told you I was not thinking of Cell here lol

[ekrolo2]

He never gives Cell a chance. Ever.

Man I just told you I was not thinking of Cell here lol

It's still an important thing to consider. We can make any random BS in any story make sense if we conveniently forget events. Goku's "mercy" pretty much stops extending to anyone after Gero (until he gives Freeza one more chance for some fucking reason in F). Cell? Kill him. Boo? He makes multiple plans and gambits to kill him! Hell, even in Super, Goku is going into the future with the express intent of killing Black, not reforming him or some shit.

[Bansho64]

Post-Freeza Goku doesn't have much character anyway. Toei's DBS Goku is just a dumber version of that.

I thought I was the only person who felt something similar to this

[PsionicWarrior]

Sorry guys if you start saying original Goku is the same Goku that we have in Super I guess any further discussion is pointless.

[Bansho64]

Sorry guys if you start saying original Goku is the same Goku that we have in Super I guess any further discussion is pointless.

No-one's saying that though We're just criticising some of the things Goku's done.

[PsionicWarrior]

I don't know how I can say it better, it's not about the actions but the personality and mental process.

[ekrolo2]

I don't know how I can say it better, it's not about the actions but the personality and mental process.

"It's not who I am underneath but what I do that defines me."

Someone can be the nicest person on the planet on the inside but if they act like a shithead, a shithead is what he will be regarded as by everyone else. Goku is a fairly likeable person but his actions and reasons for said actions are appallingly selfish and destructive for himself and everyone around him. He acts much like his various opponents to, doing things because that's what he's like except Freeza is an evil bastard for destroying the Earth while Goku isn't even though he's the one who gives Freeza a fucking opening to destroy it in the first place!

I will stop calling Goku a scum sucking bastard the day someone tells me why it's bad for Freeza to follow his base instincts which is be a murdering asshole but Goku is a good guy for basically doing the same thing and causing much needless pain, suffering and destruction for everyone around him in the process.

[PsionicWarrior]

Ok I think I get the wall, nevermind what Goku did in the past, his current incarnation in Super does not, at least to me, represent him for who he is. What I am criticizing here is messed up interpretation of a character, not what said character did or did not for this or that reason lol

[Patrolman Jaco]

Toyotaro Goku is way closer to Toriyama's version of Goku from the way he interacts with other characters, how he acts in serious situations and even down to the way he fights. Toei Goku is closer to Dragon Ball Z Abridged's portrayal of Goku and it's by far the worse thing about the DBS anime even more so than the animation.

For the longest time, Toei had a habit of making Goku a tad more traditionally heroic and serious than Toriyama's Goku. I guess now they decided to fix that, after having Toriyama involved in newer material like Battle of Gods, but maybe swung a little too far in the other direction? That's just my feeling, I guess.

Agreed.

[DragonHermit]

I agree as well. In terms of "Superman-like" Goku we had Funimation Goku > Toei Goku > Manga Goku.

I really struggle to picture how Schemmel is going to handle DBS Goku, when his Goku was ultra-serious heroic

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I agree as well. In terms of "Superman-like" Goku we had Funimation Goku > Toei Goku > Manga Goku.

I really struggle to picture how Schemmel is going to handle DBS Goku, when his Goku was ultra-serious heroic

Have you not seen BoG or "F" dubbed? He has absolutely nailed goofy laid back Goku. The only problem with his portryal is his serious Goku tends to be a still a little too serious but it's ultimately it's pretty negligible.