Why don't people like Whis' ability to travel back in time to undo stuff?

[NitroEX]

It doesn't undermine anything. Whis has to be present when the event happens, he can only rewind a few minutes, and he can't use the ability over and over again. He might be able to undo one attack, but that's not going to save the day unless the villain is Golden Freeza who Goku and Vegeta could have defeated at anytime if they were being serious.

Doesn't undermine anything? You couldn't be more wrong, just having Whis being present for a fight does just that. With him around you immediately know the heroes are impervious from failing because if something bad does happen they can simply try again. Even if he can only use the ability once (which I haven't seen any evidence for) one retry is all you need to avoid your past mistake and save the day as we've seen many times already. If the ability wasn't OP enough you also have the downright stupid logic of letting Goku and friends retain their memories after the fact. It wouldn't be as bad if Whis was the only one who remembered the rewound events and had to warn the others when going back but they don't even give us that!

Also, the whole "Whis has to be present when the event happenS" doesn't really hold up when the guy can practically watch any event in the universe with his magical rod. This is exactly what he did with Zamasu, he didn't need to be "present" at all.

Here's a thought experiment, go back to any of the past arcs and try Inserting a broken character like Whis into any of those situations, you'll quickly realize how it ruins all tension by making everything feel overly safe. In the past the heroes paid dearly for mistakes by losing lives or suffering other negative consequences, this creates drama and interesting twists in the story. The heroes also learn from these mistakes and became better characters as a result. This doesn't happen when you give them get out of jail free cards like this.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Also, the whole "Whis has to be present when the event happenS" doesn't really hold up when the guy can practically watch any event in the universe with his magical rod. This is exactly what he did with Zamasu, he didn't need to be "present" at all.

Yeah, but he would have to know about it and be paying attention, he's not omniscient.

Here's a thought experiment, go back to any of the past arcs and try Inserting a broken character like Whis into any of those situations, you'll quickly realize how it ruins all tension by making everything feel overly safe. In the past the heroes paid dearly for mistakes by losing lives or suffering other negative consequences, this creates drama and interesting twists in the story. The heroes also learn from these mistakes and became better characters as a result. This doesn't happen when you give them get out of jail free cards like this.

It doesn't make it feel less safe at all. He can undo one attack, so what? Had he undone one attack from any villain in the series, they would still have been major threats afterwards, it would only save the day if he undid a finishing attack that only happened because the Z fighters were being careless and not taking things seriously, like when they fought Golden Freeza.

[HeroR]

I get HeroR's point, but it doesn't matter if Whis mentioned it. He did that almost randomly. It's the way you execute that narrative device what makes it a Deus Ex Machina, but one could argue that and I would understand the point.
From the script perspective, you use deus ex machina as an imposition to solve the plot in order to have a happy ending. Sometimes it doesn't matter if is part or not part of the internal logic of the story. For example, Hitchcock's North by Northwest ends with a deus ex machina (police arrive at the last minute in Mt. Rushmore to save Roger O. Thornhill and Eve Kendall), and we already saw the police a lot of times, but that doesn't make you expect "oh, wait, maybe police will arrive and we all be cool, let's wait for someone off-screen to make that call).

I'd go further, saying that the fact Whiss mentions his time travel ability makes the climax even weaker and cheaper, because they couldn't go with something better and just said "Let's make Whiss say this here, so in the end he can use it to save the day". If you ask me, that's really poor writing.

By the way, funny story: I knew about the Super Dragon Balls before watching RoF, and I was really surprised by Earth destruction at the end... and when Whiss saved the group (except Vegeta, of course) and they start talking in the space I thought: "OMG, wait, is THIS how they will introduce the Super Dragon Balls? Whiss suggesting they can go to search them and restore Earth? Will this movie have an open ending so they can introduce the new anime?" My head was flying, and then... plof, time reversal, motherfuckers, and that's it. My expectations play games with my head sometimes. Anyway, really cheap writting, no matter how you want to call it.

It wasn't random at all. Whis saved the Earth because he liked the food. That's all the motived he needed, just like all the motive Beerus needed to destroy the Earth was pudding. Also, introducing a plot device, and then using it, isn't poor writing. It would be poor writing if Whis said he can rewind time, and didn't used it when the Earth exploded. Also, why would they used Super Dragon Balls to restore the Earth when the Namekian Dragon Balls can do the same thing.

And that Hitchcock isn't a deus ex machina either since you seen scenes with the police. If they just appear out of nowhere without those scenes, then it's a deus ex machina. Deus ex machina does not mean plot points you dislike, just as people keep misusing the word plot hole around here when something is not fully explained or not explained in the way they like. Just say you didn't like the plot point instead of misusing a word.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Because it's lazy writing.

Stories are supposed to be about characters resolving conflicts and growing in the process. That's not going to happen when you give your heroes a glorified reset button like Whis. It basically destroys any reason we have to care about what's going on and totally undermines any serious threat the villain brings to the story. On top of all that it's just a very boring way to solve a conflict.

The Dragonballs were used to reverse damage too but they weren't nearly as easy to exploit as Whis' ability, they had clear limitations and needed to be collected first.

It doesn't undermine anything. Whis has to be present when the event happens, he can only rewind a few minutes, and he can't use the ability over and over again. He might be able to undo one attack, but that's not going to save the day unless the villain is Golden Freeza who Goku and Vegeta could have defeated at anytime if they were being serious.

That sounds like a good deal from a practical standpoint, but practically is the wrong way to think about it. In reality, Toriyama/Toyotaro/Toei are in complete control of the story, and all they have to do at any given time is shove Whis into a situation where he's needed. Time skips are easy to write too, so don't bother replying with the time constraint argument.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Because it's lazy writing.

Stories are supposed to be about characters resolving conflicts and growing in the process. That's not going to happen when you give your heroes a glorified reset button like Whis. It basically destroys any reason we have to care about what's going on and totally undermines any serious threat the villain brings to the story. On top of all that it's just a very boring way to solve a conflict.

The Dragonballs were used to reverse damage too but they weren't nearly as easy to exploit as Whis' ability, they had clear limitations and needed to be collected first.

It doesn't undermine anything. Whis has to be present when the event happens, he can only rewind a few minutes, and he can't use the ability over and over again. He might be able to undo one attack, but that's not going to save the day unless the villain is Golden Freeza who Goku and Vegeta could have defeated at anytime if they were being serious.

That sounds like a good deal from a practical standpoint, but practically the wrong way to think about it. In reality, Toriyama/Toyotaro/Toei are in complete control of the story, and all they have to do at any given time is shove Whis into a situation where he's needed. Time skips are easy to write too, so don't bother replying with the time constraint argument.

In reality, Toriyama and Toei are in control of everything at all times and so the heroes will always win in the end, and it's always been that way. We're not talking about reality, though, we're talking about the story, and in the story Whis' power isn't really that big of a deal. And by your logic, the sense of danger is undermined in every single story ever told because there's a writer in control. That's ridiculous.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It doesn't undermine anything. Whis has to be present when the event happens, he can only rewind a few minutes, and he can't use the ability over and over again. He might be able to undo one attack, but that's not going to save the day unless the villain is Golden Freeza who Goku and Vegeta could have defeated at anytime if they were being serious.

That sounds like a good deal from a practical standpoint, but practically the wrong way to think about it. In reality, Toriyama/Toyotaro/Toei are in complete control of the story, and all they have to do at any given time is shove Whis into a situation where he's needed. Time skips are easy to write too, so don't bother replying with the time constraint argument.

In reality, Toriyama and Toei are in control of everything at all times and so the heroes will always win in the end, and it's always been that way. We're not talking about reality, though, we're talking about the story, and in the story Whis' power isn't really that big of a deal. And by your logic, the sense of danger is undermined in every single story ever told because there's a writer in control. That's ridiculous.

Wrong. By my logic, the sense of danger is undermined every time the writer adds get out of jail free cards to be easily expended at will.

When Toriyama was originally writing Dragon Ball, he would regularly write himself into difficult situations. The Dragon Balls would be deactivated or unattainable during the situation. Now, it's too easy to drag Whis along for his time skip. While I praise them for not taking full advantage of it, the fact that Whis has such a convenient power is almost as big a nuisance as Zeno's button.

[UpFromTheSkies]

That sounds like a good deal from a practical standpoint, but practically the wrong way to think about it. In reality, Toriyama/Toyotaro/Toei are in complete control of the story, and all they have to do at any given time is shove Whis into a situation where he's needed. Time skips are easy to write too, so don't bother replying with the time constraint argument.

In reality, Toriyama and Toei are in control of everything at all times and so the heroes will always win in the end, and it's always been that way. We're not talking about reality, though, we're talking about the story, and in the story Whis' power isn't really that big of a deal. And by your logic, the sense of danger is undermined in every single story ever told because there's a writer in control. That's ridiculous.

Wrong. By my logic, the sense of danger is undermined every time the writer adds get out of jail free cards to be easily expended at will.

When Toriyama was originally writing Dragon Ball, he would regularly write himself into difficult situations. The Dragon Balls would be deactivated or unattainable during the situation. Now, it's too easy to drag Whis along for his time skip. While I praise them for not taking full advantage of it, the fact that Whis has such a convenient power is almost as big a nuisance as Zeno's button.

The writer can literally do anything at anytime to resolve a problem: new transformation, new technique, new character pops up, hidden weakness discovered, change of heart, ect. It's like that in ALL stories and has nothing to do with Whis.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

In reality, Toriyama and Toei are in control of everything at all times and so the heroes will always win in the end, and it's always been that way. We're not talking about reality, though, we're talking about the story, and in the story Whis' power isn't really that big of a deal. And by your logic, the sense of danger is undermined in every single story ever told because there's a writer in control. That's ridiculous.

Wrong. By my logic, the sense of danger is undermined every time the writer adds get out of jail free cards to be easily expended at will.

When Toriyama was originally writing Dragon Ball, he would regularly write himself into difficult situations. The Dragon Balls would be deactivated or unattainable during the situation. Now, it's too easy to drag Whis along for his time skip. While I praise them for not taking full advantage of it, the fact that Whis has such a convenient power is almost as big a nuisance as Zeno's button.

The writer can literally do anything at anytime to resolve a problem: new transformation, new technique, new character pops up, hidden weakness discovered, change of heart, ect. It's like that in ALL stories and has nothing to do with Whis.

Sure, but storytelling as much a science as it is an art, it's formulaic. There are right and wrong ways to tell a story, and giving free obvious macguffins out like it's a bargain sale is the wrong way.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Wrong. By my logic, the sense of danger is undermined every time the writer adds get out of jail free cards to be easily expended at will.

When Toriyama was originally writing Dragon Ball, he would regularly write himself into difficult situations. The Dragon Balls would be deactivated or unattainable during the situation. Now, it's too easy to drag Whis along for his time skip. While I praise them for not taking full advantage of it, the fact that Whis has such a convenient power is almost as big a nuisance as Zeno's button.

The writer can literally do anything at anytime to resolve a problem: new transformation, new technique, new character pops up, hidden weakness discovered, change of heart, ect. It's like that in ALL stories and has nothing to do with Whis.

Sure, but storytelling as much a science as it is an art, it's formulaic. There are right and wrong ways to tell a story, and giving free obvious macguffins out like it's a bargain sale is the wrong way.

If Whis could use his ability as much as he wanted, I'd agree with you, but he can't, so it's really not that big of a deal even if Toriyama inserts him into the story wherever if he wants.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The writer can literally do anything at anytime to resolve a problem: new transformation, new technique, new character pops up, hidden weakness discovered, change of heart, ect. It's like that in ALL stories and has nothing to do with Whis.

Sure, but storytelling as much a science as it is an art, it's formulaic. There are right and wrong ways to tell a story, and giving free obvious macguffins out like it's a bargain sale is the wrong way.

If Whis could use his ability as much as he wanted, I'd agree with you, but he can't, so it's really not that big of a deal even if Toriyama inserts him into the story wherever if he wants.

I'd hate to repeat myself, but I feel that it's warranted one more time. It's incredibly easy to write in a time skip, especially when they can literally wait as long as they want to go back to the future. Granted, they haven't, but it's irresponsible storytelling to leave such an obvious cheat code out in the open.

I can't think of anything else Icould add to this conversation. If you want to close by saying your piece, feel free.

[PMD]

I get HeroR's point, but it doesn't matter if Whis mentioned it. He did that almost randomly. It's the way you execute that narrative device what makes it a Deus Ex Machina, but one could argue that and I would understand the point.
From the script perspective, you use deus ex machina as an imposition to solve the plot in order to have a happy ending. Sometimes it doesn't matter if is part or not part of the internal logic of the story. For example, Hitchcock's North by Northwest ends with a deus ex machina (police arrive at the last minute in Mt. Rushmore to save Roger O. Thornhill and Eve Kendall), and we already saw the police a lot of times, but that doesn't make you expect "oh, wait, maybe police will arrive and we all be cool, let's wait for someone off-screen to make that call).

I'd go further, saying that the fact Whiss mentions his time travel ability makes the climax even weaker and cheaper, because they couldn't go with something better and just said "Let's make Whiss say this here, so in the end he can use it to save the day". If you ask me, that's really poor writing.

By the way, funny story: I knew about the Super Dragon Balls before watching RoF, and I was really surprised by Earth destruction at the end... and when Whiss saved the group (except Vegeta, of course) and they start talking in the space I thought: "OMG, wait, is THIS how they will introduce the Super Dragon Balls? Whiss suggesting they can go to search them and restore Earth? Will this movie have an open ending so they can introduce the new anime?" My head was flying, and then... plof, time reversal, motherfuckers, and that's it. My expectations play games with my head sometimes. Anyway, really cheap writting, no matter how you want to call it.

It wasn't random at all. Whis saved the Earth because he liked the food. That's all the motived he needed, just like all the motive Beerus needed to destroy the Earth was pudding. Also, introducing a plot device, and then using it, isn't poor writing. It would be poor writing if Whis said he can rewind time, and didn't used it when the Earth exploded. Also, why would they used Super Dragon Balls to restore the Earth when the Namekian Dragon Balls can do the same thing.

And that Hitchcock isn't a deus ex machina either since you seen scenes with the police. If they just appear out of nowhere without those scenes, then it's a deus ex machina. Deus ex machina does not mean plot points you dislike, just as people keep misusing the word plot hole around here when something is not fully explained or not explained in the way they like. Just say you didn't like the plot point instead of misusing a word.

This would turn in a very stupid debate, and off-topic. Is not something "you said/ I say". There's a definition and theroy about it, so cut it already, smart guy. I already said that is up to various interpretations, not something you like or not. You think you know what it is, but you didn't even read what I said correctly, so stop trying to teach me with poor subjective arguments and zero theory. I already made my point, thanks.

[HeroR]

This would turn in a very stupid debate, and off-topic. Is not something "you said/ I say". There's a definition and theroy about it, so cut it already, smart guy. I already said that is up to various interpretations, not something you like or not. You think you know what it is, but you didn't even read what I said correctly, so stop trying to teach me with poor subjective arguments and zero theory. I already made my point, thanks.

All I did was point out how a plot point you don't like isn't a deus ex machina. It's just a plot point you don't like. You're the one taking it personally. I also don't see me saying something is not a deus ex machina is 'poor subjective arguments and zero theory'. What does that have to do with anything?