Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
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Attitudefan
- I Live Here
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by Attitudefan » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:56 pm
mabalia wrote:When Raditz kidnapped his son Gohan, Goku was desperate, I hardly saw the happiness to fight a strong guy, he just wanted to save his son. Even in super when Zamasu killed Chichi and Goten, he reacted more violently and with no forgiveness to Zamasu. Even Freeza who killed Krillin before his own eyes he could forgive and let him live.
So I take this "companion, don't have a sense of family" comment of Toriyama as him not remembering well certain parts of what he wrote in his manga. Because he didn't depict Goku as this kind of guy who likes everyone equally, even between his friends we can see him likeing Krillin more than Yamcha for example. In moments of distress he doesn't talk first of Krillin, Turtle or Dr. Briefs. No, he talks of his sons and wife.
Actually, with Raditz, it's true that he cared about his son more than anything. Raditz was such a frightening foe that made Goku so desperate that he would get his son back even if it meant suicide. He wasn't happy that he got to fight a strong foe at all. He was scared and out of options.
Would modern asshole Goku act in such desperation and fear? Would he get a kick out of fighting a strong guy even if it meant death? Remember, Goku didn't want to fight Raditz for fun. He even banded with Piccolo as it ensured they had a better chance and it ensured Roshi and Krillin wouldn't die (and be unable to be brought back again).
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada
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RandomGuy96
- Kicks it Old-School
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by RandomGuy96 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:00 pm
All I'm seeing is Toriyama's writing basically printing fistloads of money at relatively little cost.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Totamo
- I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
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by Totamo » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:55 am
Attitudefan wrote:mabalia wrote:When Raditz kidnapped his son Gohan, Goku was desperate, I hardly saw the happiness to fight a strong guy, he just wanted to save his son. Even in super when Zamasu killed Chichi and Goten, he reacted more violently and with no forgiveness to Zamasu. Even Freeza who killed Krillin before his own eyes he could forgive and let him live.
So I take this "companion, don't have a sense of family" comment of Toriyama as him not remembering well certain parts of what he wrote in his manga. Because he didn't depict Goku as this kind of guy who likes everyone equally, even between his friends we can see him likeing Krillin more than Yamcha for example. In moments of distress he doesn't talk first of Krillin, Turtle or Dr. Briefs. No, he talks of his sons and wife.
Actually, with Raditz, it's true that he cared about his son more than anything. Raditz was such a frightening foe that made Goku so desperate that he would get his son back even if it meant suicide. He wasn't happy that he got to fight a strong foe at all. He was scared and out of options.
Would modern asshole Goku act in such desperation and fear? Would he get a kick out of fighting a strong guy even if it meant death? Remember, Goku didn't want to fight Raditz for fun. He even banded with Piccolo as it ensured they had a better chance and it ensured Roshi and Krillin wouldn't die (and be unable to be brought back again).
yeah he kind of would, he did it with frieza.
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mabalia
- Beyond Newbie
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- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:43 pm
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by mabalia » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:27 am
Attitudefan wrote:mabalia wrote:When Raditz kidnapped his son Gohan, Goku was desperate, I hardly saw the happiness to fight a strong guy, he just wanted to save his son. Even in super when Zamasu killed Chichi and Goten, he reacted more violently and with no forgiveness to Zamasu. Even Freeza who killed Krillin before his own eyes he could forgive and let him live.
So I take this "companion, don't have a sense of family" comment of Toriyama as him not remembering well certain parts of what he wrote in his manga. Because he didn't depict Goku as this kind of guy who likes everyone equally, even between his friends we can see him likeing Krillin more than Yamcha for example. In moments of distress he doesn't talk first of Krillin, Turtle or Dr. Briefs. No, he talks of his sons and wife.
Actually, with Raditz, it's true that he cared about his son more than anything. Raditz was such a frightening foe that made Goku so desperate that he would get his son back even if it meant suicide. He wasn't happy that he got to fight a strong foe at all. He was scared and out of options.
Would modern asshole Goku act in such desperation and fear? Would he get a kick out of fighting a strong guy even if it meant death? Remember, Goku didn't want to fight Raditz for fun. He even banded with Piccolo as it ensured they had a better chance and it ensured Roshi and Krillin wouldn't die (and be unable to be brought back again).
I agree.
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Attitudefan
- I Live Here
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by Attitudefan » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:34 am
Totamo wrote:yeah he kind of would, he did it with frieza.
He went in with a completely different mindset in that fight though. More or less wasn't afraid and took Vegeta's pride as a source to win. Plus, at the beginning didn't feel like it was all for naught. Cue the scene where he started feeling that desperation, and has the flashback of everyone dead; Goku freaks out and goes all in. He nearly gives up when he realizes his Kaioken x20 was worthless. Even when using the Spirit Bomb was metaphoric: the Planet and the Solar System that is being ravaged by Freeza is helping Goku. Goku still was desperate and did some moves that almost killed him because it could have had been over right then and there until Piccolo showed up. Even the dream with Vegeta, telling Goku to avenge those who fallen, is clear that Goku is not doing this "for fun." All this fear, this desperation, the heroics, led to his transformation. Yes, once a Super Saiyan, he became more like Vegeta but it makes sense. Goku later reminds people that he had a hard time controlling his emotions because it is such a pure state derived from emotions. So, for sure, he's going to act irrational and brash in that moment. However, Toriyama was a master at showing how later Goku reverted back to his older ways when he told Freeza that it was done. He regained control of the fight, and of who he really is. That's profound.
We see this characterization when Goku doesn't want to kill off the Ginyu force, but to let them go. In a way, he acts "Supermanish" in the Namek arc. He is totally opposed to Vegeta killing them. Every reaction Goku does when he sees Vegeta killing off a member of the Ginyu force is of shock. He doesn't want them dead. Hence, Ginyu is let go.
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada