Are power levels Bullshit?

[Desassina]

What's with these lame threads where people get to be faux wise for a moment? You don't get to say that they are bullshit without being equal to the others. In other words: using power levels as a passing entertainment is not bad, but getting worked up over differences among fans is. However, being frowned upon regardless of who uses them and how doesn't help either. It reeks of an attitude where you want to appear superior over a taboo topic. I love them power levels!

[Luso Saiyan]

I wouldn't say it's not important,

In the Dragon Ball universe, they ceased to be important. Decades ago. Some people may care about them, but let's not blame others (specially the author) for their own focus on a dropped concept.

even if deliberately dropped, it has always been enjoyable to see characters grow stronger and follow them on their path,

Yes, and power levels are not relevant for character growth. They are an hindrance.

powerups coming out of nowhere are just lazy,

What?! We are talking about a series where "powerups" always came out of nowhere.

but dropping that aspect completely altogether is certainly frustrating.

Well, too bad. Like I said, it happened decades ago.

Also I disagree with you saying they ceased to matter during Freeza arc, I think they are there in the whole of Z even if there is a few inconsistencies here and there lol

But they aren't. They were only in the Saiyan and most of the Freeza arc. You're disagreeing with a fact.

[PsionicWarrior]

In the Dragon Ball universe, they ceased to be important. Decades ago. Some people may care about them, but let's not blame others (specially the author) for their own focus on a dropped concept.

Fair enough.

Yes, and power levels are not relevant for character growth. They are an hindrance.

How are they a hindrance? How can power levels be a hindrance in a series where characters are warriors?

What?! We are talking about a series where "powerups" always came out of nowhere.

Training is not from nowhere, getting it by someone else boosting your inner potential is not out of nowhere, getting a powerup making look the zenkai Vegeta got during Freeza arc ridiculous comes out of nowhere lol

But they aren't. They were only in the Saiyan and most of the Freeza arc. You're disagreeing with a fact.

Then enlighten me for I thought, for instance, attaining the proper state of SSJ2 was kind of a big deal during the Cell arc lol

[Luso Saiyan]

How are they a hindrance?

Because you're limiting a character to numbers.

How can power levels be a hindrance in a series were characters are warriors?

What does them being warriors has to do with it?

My number-one goal in coming up with [scouters] was because, if an opponent’s strength could be seen as a number, it would be very easy for the readers to understand when I put it in the comic. However, I could foresee that it’d be an inconvenience for me down the line, because if you knew a concrete number, then you could tell who would win or lose, so with regards to Goku & co., I decided that [their power] would change due to “Ki” and couldn’t be adequately measured.

- Akira Toriyama

Bolded for emphasis.

Training is not from nowhere,

"Powerups" are.

Then enlighten me for I thought, for instance, attaining the proper state of SSJ2 was kind of a big deal during the Cell arc lol

Yes, and we are talking about power levels. You know, this stuff...

[PsionicWarrior]

First of thanks for the links and references cheers lol

That bolded part you quote is interesting and sound, however it should be simple to roughly evaluate a situation, for instance when you see Beerus knocking out SSJ3 Goku with one hit then SJJ2 FTrunks can hold himself vs SSJR Black I would suggest there is a problem, of course you can't reduce everything to numbers and I agree with that and other parameters are important, but removing any kind of relevance as to where chars stand between each others seems like the other extreme lol

[Luso Saiyan]

First of thanks for the links and references cheers lol

That bolded part you quote is interesting and sound, however it should be simple to roughly evaluate a situation, for instance when you see Beerus knocking out SSJ3 Goku with one hit then SJJ2 FTrunks can hold himself vs SSJR Black I would suggest there is a problem,

How? Why? When did Future Trunks ever held his own against Black? He was always defeated by Black. That he managed to defend himself for a while or give a hit doesn't making him stronger than him nor on his league. I also don't see the relevancy of Beerus, considering he's more powerful than every one of those you mentioned.

of course you can't reduce everything to numbers and I agree with that and other parameters are important, but removing any kind of relevance as to where chars stand between each others seems like the other extreme lol

Where characters stand between each other is always made obvious and explicit when they engage in a fight or through dialogue. It's also something that can change since it's organic and dynamic, not static.

[PsionicWarrior]

How? Why?

Because of God Ki, wasn't it stated or admitted in BoG that anything below could not compete or I remember wrong?

Where characters stand between each other is always made obvious and explicit when they engage in a fight or through dialogue. It's also something that can change since it's organic and dynamic, not static.

Well again, I fail to see how a SSJ2 Trunks suddenly being able to trade blows against characters giving a hard time to SSJB Saiyajins is any obvious or explicit lol

[Luso Saiyan]

Because of God Ki, wasn't it stated or admitted in BoG that anything below could not compete or I remember wrong?

I don't recall anyting like that. Still, when was he able to compete? He was always defeated.

Well again, I fail to see how a SSJ2 Trunks suddenly being able to trade blows against characters giving a hard time to SSJB Saiyajins is any obvious or explicit lol

He's not "suddenly able" to do anything. He managed to defend himself for a while a give a hit or two. Still not on Black, Goku or Vegeta's league, as made explicit in the episodes themselves. To cherry pick a few seconds of a fight done for entertainment and extrapolate a generalization out of it is pointless.

[PsionicWarrior]

Dude I'm not cherry picking around a few seconds more than you are cherry picking on my arguments, I'm mentioning an example where power levels have annoyed me and you said yourself authors didn't care about them anymore anyway so I wonder what you're telling me, if you think all that happened to Trunks powerups in that arc is clear and logical I want to say good for you and all but you can't present as a fact there has been no issues there, you can say they don't matter if you like, but not that they don't exist lol

[sintzu]

They weren't in the original cause everything was clear and we knew who could beat who and how strong they had to be but that's not the case now so yes, they are (currently) Bulls**t.

[ABED]

My number-one goal in coming up with [scouters] was because, if an opponent’s strength could be seen as a number, it would be very easy for the readers to understand when I put it in the comic. However, I could foresee that it’d be an inconvenience for me down the line, because if you knew a concrete number, then you could tell who would win or lose, so with regards to Goku & co., I decided that [their power] would change due to “Ki” and couldn’t be adequately measured.

Good quote, but strategy also plays a part as does teamwork. Plus it's fake science anyway and so you can just as easily write things the scouter doesn't measure. And hinderances aren't always a bad thing. Sometimes they can lead to creative solutions.

Of course it does- but you can't be prodigious one arc and then lose all your talent in the next and vice versa.

Not all, but if you don't work at it, you can lose it or fall behind.

[Ringworm128]

They're not really "bullshit" when they're first introduced. Higher power level equals stronger character, nice and simple. One inconsistency is in Vegeta taking Goku's X4 Kamehameha head on. The fight with Raditz established that you only need a power gap of less than 1000 to completely overwhelm an opponent and even obliterate their flesh, yet Vegeta takes on a beam that should be able to kill Zarbon and Dodoria and lives. Seriously, he should have melted like butter.

What I think they should do is build upon the lore of power levels, maybe something like EV levels in Pokemon.

[Nejishiki]

I'm fairly certain battle powers didn't have laws to abide by. The readings were often all over the place. The battle against Raditz had ki attacks overcoming Goku and Piccolo's fighting strength. If one were to apply it so mathematically, then all three of the characters present were "stronger" than Raditz from the start. The real context, and this applies to future supposed inconsistencies, is that characters are worn down throughout encounters dependent of their body and ki management. I'll make it clear that I completely understand that, generally speaking, the readings are supposed to accurate, but the narrative insists they don't represent the entire story behind the individuals read. Using extreme examples would be unnecessary since it would go against the heart of the subject. What's portrayed and applied is ultimately what's important. Two schools of thought were pitted against each other in the Namek arc. Vegeta is a fine example of somebody who adapted, mastered, and combined these elements. I can't truly vibe with "a difference of 5000 should..." styles of conclusion. That's usually what led to an opponent's downfall in the story. Their scouter doesn't account for all of the factors.