My Attempt at the Transformations

[Saturnine]

Whenever two circles engulf each other it was my way of showing they're equal - really no other way to do that except completely obscuring one circle with the other. So yeah, I think SSj Rage is equal to SSj Blue.

As for SSj with the god flame, it's only a transitional state, it's just SSj put over a fledgling SBG. Also, Goku was able to briefly stop Beerus in his base form, and going Super Saiyan didn't noticeably help him, it was probably done just for flashiness or to give Goku a sense of feeling that he was giving it his all (he didn't go SSj2 or 3 at that point either, which indicates they wouldn't have altered the outcome). It's probably best to see the power retained from SSj God as a flat increment rather than a multiplier. That level is so high that Goku's previous power is a mere fraction, be it base or Super Saiyan, that's why I don't think there is any difference between it and SBG.

So at that point Goku basically had most if not all the power of SSj God, but no mastery over his ki required to put Super Saiyan on top of that in a viable fashion. If he went SSj, it would all be the same, as he'd just multiply his natural ki, not the one he got from SSj God. That's where Toriyama's remark about it being the most beneficial to train his base and SSj forms comes in - the result was full mastery over the god portion of his power, and the ability to go SSj Blue. At that point he could also suppress himself to just the natural portion of his ki, and put regular SSj, SSj2 and SSj3 multipliers on top of it, thus creating the two bases. "SSj with the crimson fire" had long ceased to exist by that point. That's how I see it at least.

Also, in addition to what you said, the way I portrayed the Grade forms can be seen as controversial

[ChiefWamsutta]

As for SSj with the god flame, it's only a transitional state, it's just SSj put over a fledgling SBG. Also, Goku was able to briefly stop Beerus in his base form, and going Super Saiyan didn't noticeably help him, it was probably done just for flashiness or to give Goku a sense of feeling that he was giving it his all (he didn't go SSj2 or 3 at that point either, which indicates they wouldn't have altered the outcome). It's probably best to see the power retained from SSj God as a flat increment rather than a multiplier. That level is so high that Goku's previous power is a mere fraction, be it base or Super Saiyan, that's why I don't think there is any difference between it and SBG.

So at that point Goku basically had most if not all the power of SSj God, but no mastery over his ki required to put Super Saiyan on top of that in a viable fashion. If he went SSj, it would all be the same, as he'd just multiply his natural ki, not the one he got from SSj God. That's where Toriyama's remark about it being the most beneficial to train his base and SSj forms comes in - the result was full mastery over the god portion of his power, and the ability to go SSj Blue. At that point he could also suppress himself to just the natural portion of his ki, and put regular SSj, SSj2 and SSj3 multipliers on top of it, thus creating the two bases. "SSj with the crimson fire" had long ceased to exist by that point. That's how I see it at least.

Oh, okay, yeah, I agree with you that SSBlue = SSRage. Again, this is all how I see it.

But ... we have no evidence that "SSj with crimson fire" stopped existing. The reason I call it SSGSS is because it is a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, just Mortal Ki. We see Goku unlock God Ki with Whis' training, which he probably implemented to this crimson fire SS.

Where did you see the underlined part? I believe that was in Battle of Gods the movie, but not the DBSuper saga. What you said about Goku's power being so high that his previous power is a mere fraction makes sense can basically explain away a lot of the One-Base Theory arguments.

I really like a lot of your points and I'm seriously inclined to change my views to your own. We just never saw evidence of the SSGod power being implemented into anything but the Super Saiyan form. To me it just makes sense that since he saw Whis he practiced master ki control in this crimson fire SS form. You know? They would've unlocked SSB2 or SSB3 if SS2 and SS3 were all equal as of then. The only reason his Base form became so strong since they trained in it for the majority of the time.

I'm just trying to get my thoughts out. I think this all comes down to whether Goku's Super Saiyan form was the only one to absorb the SSGod power.

P.S. I don't think your graphic explains how Vegeta would get the Saiyan Beyond God form?

[ChiefWamsutta]

You've inspired me to try my own version!

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Hey Saturnine!

Sorry for the double-posting. I made a modified version of my transformations map.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I made this to explain that some transformations are achieved by Rage and Power Strain vs. Ki Control and Calmness. I added in Ultimate as a form to be transformed from Base because that is what Gohan did. I have an X-Axis where further to the right is a more powerful transformation. I have a Y-Axis where the horizontal line at Base is zero. The positive Y-Axis is further towards Rage and Power Strain, while the negative Y-Axis is further towards Calmness and Ki Control. If you get down or up far enough you will reach a God Ki level. This could be what Goku Black meant by SSRose being the perfect form -- it reached a level of perfect Ki Control as well as absolute great power.

What do you think of all this? I genuinely believe it has a lot of potential!

[Saturnine]

Hey, it looks really good this time! Nothing to criticize, really. Kudos for trying to make sense of this admittedly messy thing. The more transformations were introduced, the more complicated it became, so yeah.

Where did you see the underlined part? I believe that was in Battle of Gods the movie, but not the DBSuper saga. What you said about Goku's power being so high that his previous power is a mere fraction makes sense can basically explain away a lot of the One-Base Theory arguments.

Yeah, that was in the movie. In the series Goku was a Super Saiyan most of the time, admittedly. But later, when he was about to fight Freeza, he was mentioned to be stronger than ever in base, plus he and Freeza couldn't be seen, while SSj God Goku and Beerus could be seen at the level they fought at. I believe

P.S. I don't think your graphic explains how Vegeta would get the Saiyan Beyond God form?

Yeah, it doesn't. It mainly focuses on relationships between power and speed of the forms, they're only connected directly where it's feasible. No biggie

[DBZ Macky]

I wouldn't put Full Power Super Saiyan above regular Super Saiyan. It's just presented as a mastered version of the regular Super Saiyan transformation.

Trunks transforms into SS Grade III in Super, which would be unnecessary if he was already that strong as a Super Saiyan. What's more? This implies that SSGIII may even be a bigger boost to raw power than SS2, or perhaps even Trunks' version of SS2 (which is about as strong as SS3) if you wish to reconcile both the Anime and the Manga.

[Saturnine]

I wouldn't put Full Power Super Saiyan above regular Super Saiyan. It's just presented as a mastered version of the regular Super Saiyan transformation.

And there's supposed to be a difference between the two, so that the whole mastering process is worthwhile.

Think about it as 100% Freeza before and after.

Trunks transforms into SS Grade III in Super, which would be unnecessary if he was already that strong as a Super Saiyan. What's more? This implies that SSGIII may even be a bigger boost to raw power than SS2, or perhaps even Trunks' version of SS2 (which is about as strong as SS3) if you wish to reconcile both the Anime and the Manga.

Trunks did that not to get stronger, but to trick Vegeta into thinking he still relies on this form, even though it's slow. Then he reverted to regular SSj (or SSj2, we don't know) to quickly evade Vegeta's attack. Trunks was probably counting on Vegeta using less speed than usual in his attack, and he was right.

Also, nothing implies Grade 3 is anywhere near as strong as SSj2. SSj2 Gohan was many folds stronger than G3 Trunks as we saw him.

[DBZ Macky]

Trunks did that not to get stronger, but to trick Vegeta into thinking he still relies on this form, even though it's slow. Then he reverted to regular SSj (or SSj2, we don't know) to quickly evade Vegeta's attack. Trunks was probably counting on Vegeta using less speed than usual in his attack, and he was right.

I know that he was trying to trick Vegeta, but there has to be some actual basis to using that form. What you're saying would mean that he could just go regular Super Saiyan and it would have the same effect as being a SS GIII.

But, I don't interpret it that way. He made Vegeta think that he was trading speed for more power. And that's what truly infuriated Vegeta.

Also, nothing implies Grade 3 is anywhere near as strong as SSj2. SSj2 Gohan was many folds stronger than G3 Trunks as we saw him.

Well, Gohan as a regular Super Saiyan was already many folds stronger than Grade III Trunks as he was against Cell.

When Goku powered up to around 50% if his power, he had surpassed Super Vegeta and was probably on the same realm of power as SS GIII Trunks.
And Gohan was even stronger than Goku at 100%.
As a Super Saiyan 2, he would be at least 4x stronger than SS GIII Trunks as he was against Cell even if SS GIII gave more raw power than a SS2.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Hey, it looks really good this time! Nothing to criticize, really. Kudos for trying to make sense of this admittedly messy thing. The more transformations were introduced, the more complicated it became, so yeah.

Where did you see the underlined part? I believe that was in Battle of Gods the movie, but not the DBSuper saga. What you said about Goku's power being so high that his previous power is a mere fraction makes sense can basically explain away a lot of the One-Base Theory arguments.

Yeah, that was in the movie. In the series Goku was a Super Saiyan most of the time, admittedly. But later, when he was about to fight Freeza, he was mentioned to be stronger than ever in base, plus he and Freeza couldn't be seen, while SSj God Goku and Beerus could be seen at the level they fought at. I believe

P.S. I don't think your graphic explains how Vegeta would get the Saiyan Beyond God form?

Yeah, it doesn't. It mainly focuses on relationships between power and speed of the forms, they're only connected directly where it's feasible. No biggie

Very true, it isn't really a big deal if your aim was Power and Speed. Also, I totally agree about Goku in his Base form being stronger than Crimson Fire SS. Then SSB was greater than that. SSG = Crimson Fire SS < RoF Base < SSB.

Thanks so much for your support on my newest graphic. I put SS, Ultimate, SSG and Great Ape all coming from Base, which was the baseline for everything. Great Ape and SS I believed should be somewhere around the same power strain. SS1G2 is greater strain, and I had SS1G3 = SS2 in power strain because SS2 gains you speed. SS3 is obviously further above all of these in power strain. SSRage is the highest reaching a level where god ki is obtained? (Maybe, I'm not sure).

SSG, SSB, and SSRose (Black's SSB) were all below the level of Ki Control necessary for God Ki, which I can accept. Grade 4 went from power strain to Ki Control, so I put it on the other side of the zero line. Ultimate has further ki control, and I put SSGSS and Saiyan Beyond God equal in ki control, yet further than Ultimate. You'll notice that each form pushes further right as well, which is a higher power level.

SSG came from Base since the original SSG was only in Base then to SSGSS then to SBG then to SSB (with SSRose next to it since it can't be obtained and is an SSB). I had lines from SS1, SS1G2, SS1G3 all going to SS1G4 since Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku went to Grade 4 from each of those forms, respectively. Grade 4 to SS2 and SSGSS since everyone did the SS2 and Vegeta made it to SSGSS from an already ki-controlled form, he just gained more control. The SSRage line comes from SS2 since that is Trunks' highest rage/power strain form. I put Ultimate from Base since you don't necessarily need SS2 to get this form, just Old Kai. Saiyan Beyond God needs Crimson Fire SS (SSGSS) though to be achieved so it came directly after. You can't just get SBG from Base, despite it looking like Base.

I hope this is all making sense. Feel free to tear it apart.

[Saturnine]

Yeah, individual power differences aside, Full Power Super Saiyan still seems disproportionately powerful. Even if we assume that it incorporates the full power multiplier of Grade 3, that still doesn't make Goku's base power advantage over Trunks any less impressive. These two assumptions can coexist comfortably.

Like you said, he's already probably like twice as strong as Trunks was. I actually think it might be even more, since standby Goku was enough to match standby Perfect Cell, and standby Perfect Cell was already at a level where he could be faster than Grade 3 Trunks, while being noticeably but not extremely weaker.

If we assume standby Goku was at say, 33% of his full power, that could put standby Cell at 35% and Grade 3 Trunks at say, 40-45%.

Vegeta and Trunks' gains during their second trip to the RoSaT were said not to be very impressive, mostly because they each trained alone this time. But they completely abandoned Grade 2 and Grade 3 forms this time, and relied only on Super Saiyan. I have SSj Vegeta and Trunks at 70% of Goku's maximum at that point in time. If we assume FPSSj incorporates the full power Grade 3 affords, that would actually fit in nicely with what was said, granting them only a 1,75x increase in power in a whole year of training. If we assumed, on the other hand, that mastered SSj isn't any stronger than a regular SSj, Trunks' and Vegeta's base powers would need to be larger to compensate. (by varying estimates a 2 or even 4x larger growth would be required).

What you're saying would mean that he could just go regular Super Saiyan and it would have the same effect as being a SS GIII.

Yeah, but notice that "regular SSj" is basically gone, once you're Grade IV in it, due to natural mastery. Trunks would need to severely suppress himself as a regular Super Saiyan (albeit mastered) to bring himself down to Grade 3 speed. He would also be comparatively much weaker and therefore vulnerable if he did that. But a Full Power Super Saiyan is way faster than a Grade 3 SSj at the same level of ki, hence why what we saw Trunks do (revert to regular SSj from Grade 3) actually made sense. Grade 3 is a power up put on top of an unmastered SSj's level. It can't grant you more power than a full power Super Saiyan can. If it could, Goku could at least have used Grade 2 against Cell, even in a short burst. He didn't.

I hope this is all making sense. Feel free to tear it apart.

One thing you seem to have missed is that the ritual to obtain SSj God is between six Super Saiyans, so the recipient of the power also needs to be a Super Saiyan. SSj is a requirement, so I think the arrow towards SSj God in your chart should originate at Super Saiyan, not Base.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I hope this is all making sense. Feel free to tear it apart.

One thing you seem to have missed is that the ritual to obtain SSj God is between six Super Saiyans, so the recipient of the power also needs to be a Super Saiyan. SSj is a requirement, so I think the arrow towards SSj God in your chart should originate at Super Saiyan, not Base.

So everything else seems to be in order? The spots on the Y-Axis for Power Strain and the spots on the Y-Axis for Ki Control? The X-Axis for Power Level and all the connections from one form to the next seem okay? I put the connection lines as how you'd get the first transformation. Because you can go to SS3 from Base, but the first time you need SS2. Thank you so much, and I am sorry to bother you. I have been working on this since early October and I want it to be completed.

Yeah, so I'm going to look again at Base --> SSG or SS1 --> SSG. I've heard it could go both ways.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I double-checked DBSuper, and Episode 9 at 6 minutes 30 seconds Shenron begins talking about how to create a Super Saiyan God. He never mentions once about Super Saiyans needed. He only says righteous Saiyans are needed. I believe that they became Super Saiyans unintentionally/to focus.

[Saturnine]

I double-checked DBSuper, and Episode 9 at 6 minutes 30 seconds Shenron begins talking about how to create a Super Saiyan God. He never mentions once about Super Saiyans needed. He only says righteous Saiyans are needed. I believe that they became Super Saiyans unintentionally/to focus.

That might have been an oversight, but yeah - agreed. It's probably me who missed something.

As for your chart - it's pretty good, really. Not sure what to add here. There's rarely a point where something's perfect, so there's always room for improvement, though. Good job overall.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I double-checked DBSuper, and Episode 9 at 6 minutes 30 seconds Shenron begins talking about how to create a Super Saiyan God. He never mentions once about Super Saiyans needed. He only says righteous Saiyans are needed. I believe that they became Super Saiyans unintentionally/to focus.

That might have been an oversight, but yeah - agreed. It's probably me who missed something.

As for your chart - it's pretty good, really. Not sure what to add here. There's rarely a point where something's perfect, so there's always room for improvement, though. Good job overall.

Yeah, they may have mentioned the Super Saiyan bit in Battle of Gods the movie. Thank you again, yes, I am modifying it to make it better currently.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I have Base Goku nearly 4x as strong as Base Trunks, this easily explains the vast power gap between FPSSJ Goku and Grade 3 Trunks.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I've completed my chart. The dashes suggest an indirect connection, the solid lines show direct connections.