Super has the right idea, but it doesn't work at this point: strategy's place in battle

[PsionicWarrior]

It's limiting because you know who is going to win. The guy with the bigger number.

By that logic the whole Z series would have ended after episode 1.

[Totamo]

It's limiting because you know who is going to win. The guy with the bigger number.

By that logic the whole Z series would have ended after episode 1.

Yes, it would have if raditz was intelligent

[Simere]

I'm still convinced the tournament is going to ultimately come down to who's more powerful.

The universe 6 arc didn't do that. 4 fighters used gimmicks against Vegeta and Goku.

What prevailed?

I'm not even sure what you're talking about, though. Botamo was the only real gimmick fighter, was he not? Unless you call Hit's Time-Skip a gimmick. Which I do, actually, but I don't think most people do.

[Simere]

What's impressive about Krillin sawing out a hole in the stage when Goku simply and easily jumped out? Resorting to those tactics just comes off as desperate and pathetic to me, just like they did when he tried them in DB. And they didn't work there either.

[PsionicWarrior]

It's limiting because you know who is going to win. The guy with the bigger number.

By that logic the whole Z series would have ended after episode 1.

Yes, it would have if raditz was intelligent

The point is, the difference in power actually meant something back then, and it was not boring but exciting. It was exciting to see a foe so strong no one could touch him, it was awesome to see all the path and the training to attain a new level and finally appear super badass, then more transformations, more action, more ambiance building up and strategies to come up with, all of this was overall well executed as depending on the damage someone could do to another you could easily relate to the gravity or impact of the situation. In Super the forms are completely demystified.

[Sodhi]

I am probably in the minority, but I am liking this approach and hope they stick with it. My concern is that this all will be forgotten, and we'll be back to raw power wins it all by the end of the tournament.

[Totamo]

By that logic the whole Z series would have ended after episode 1.

Yes, it would have if raditz was intelligent

The point is, the difference in power actually meant something back then, and it was not boring but exciting. It was exciting to see a foe so strong no one could touch him, it was awesome to see all the path and the training to attain a new level and finally appear super badass, then more transformations, more action, more ambiance building up and strategies to come up with, all of this was overall well executed as depending on the damage someone could do to another you could easily relate to the gravity or impact of the situation. In Super the forms are completely demystified.

It was repetitive and made the human characters useless then it made piccolo useless.

It's really sad when you go from watching dragon Ball to z and seeing that.

Z changed a lot of things about dragon Ball and I argue most of them weren't for the better.

[TheMikado]

Yes, it would have if raditz was intelligent

The point is, the difference in power actually meant something back then, and it was not boring but exciting. It was exciting to see a foe so strong no one could touch him, it was awesome to see all the path and the training to attain a new level and finally appear super badass, then more transformations, more action, more ambiance building up and strategies to come up with, all of this was overall well executed as depending on the damage someone could do to another you could easily relate to the gravity or impact of the situation. In Super the forms are completely demystified.

It was repetitive and made the human characters useless then it made piccolo useless.

It's really sad when you go from watching dragon Ball to z and seeing that.

Z changed a lot of things about dragon Ball and I argue most of them weren't for the better.

Sure you can argue that but you can't argue Zs international succcess where the Dragonball anime still struggles. Fact of the matter is the parts you don't like are literally what made Z and and by extension the entire Dragonball franchise and international powerhouse. So don't like it al you want, but it will be hard to recapture that same magic of Z internationally when that's not what made it popular in the first place.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I am probably in the minority, but I am liking this approach and hope they stick with it. My concern is that this all will be forgotten, and we'll be back to raw power wins it all by the end of the tournament.

Raw power is kinda Goku's thing nowadays, so you can count on it winning out by the end.

[Totamo]

The point is, the difference in power actually meant something back then, and it was not boring but exciting. It was exciting to see a foe so strong no one could touch him, it was awesome to see all the path and the training to attain a new level and finally appear super badass, then more transformations, more action, more ambiance building up and strategies to come up with, all of this was overall well executed as depending on the damage someone could do to another you could easily relate to the gravity or impact of the situation. In Super the forms are completely demystified.

It was repetitive and made the human characters useless then it made piccolo useless.

It's really sad when you go from watching dragon Ball to z and seeing that.

Z changed a lot of things about dragon Ball and I argue most of them weren't for the better.

Sure you can argue that but you can't argue Zs international succcess where the Dragonball anime still struggles. Fact of the matter is the parts you don't like are literally what made Z and and by extension the entire Dragonball franchise and international powerhouse. So don't like it al you want, but it will be hard to recapture that same magic of Z internationally when that's not what made it popular in the first place.

I never denied that. Z will always be more iconic than Ball and its one of the biggest reasons why super is lasting as long as it is.

[TheMathemagician]

What's impressive about Krillin sawing out a hole in the stage when Goku simply and easily jumped out? Resorting to those tactics just comes off as desperate and pathetic to me, just like they did when he tried them in DB. And they didn't work there either.

There was nothing desperate about sawing the floor below Goku. He did it to ring him out. It was a clever move because Goku had no knowledge that he did that.

I am probably in the minority, but I am liking this approach and hope they stick with it. My concern is that this all will be forgotten, and we'll be back to raw power wins it all by the end of the tournament.

Raw power is kinda Goku's thing nowadays, so you can count on it winning out by the end.

He showed some nice tactics in both of his fights with Hit, and even something fairly smart in his fight with Beerus.

[Simere]

What's impressive about Krillin sawing out a hole in the stage when Goku simply and easily jumped out? Resorting to those tactics just comes off as desperate and pathetic to me, just like they did when he tried them in DB. And they didn't work there either.

There was nothing desperate about sawing the floor below Goku. He did it to ring him out. It was a clever move because Goku had no knowledge that he did that.

It's desperate because he can't win without tricks. Look, you do what you gotta, but that's not impressive from a skill perspective.

Are you a Starcraft fan? Street Fighter? The worst players are the ones who have to rely on gimmicks to get them wins. The most skilled, the most impressive, are the ones who train the fundamentals so that gimmicks don't work on them. The thing about focusing on gimmicks is that they can be figured out, and once they are they cease to work. Fundamentals can't be. You either have to improve your own fundamentals to match them, or come up with a gimmick you hope they've never seen before; while simultaneously hoping they aren't simply so fundamentally sound that they won't counter it on the fly.

What's derisively referred to as "raw power" around here is in fact what true tactics are actually about in fighting. Strength, speed, and the mechanics of punching, kicking and guarding.

[kinisking]

Dude, that was one training session. And it was just to control his mind. It shouldn't have given him a huge power boost.

No, we know he has been training since and months passed in-universe. Why shouldn't it have given him a big power boost (it wasn't even big)? Releasing his potential was fine back in the Namek arc.

Being able to force Goku into super Saiyan is a HUGE increase in power. Krillin shouldn't even both Gokus base form at this point.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

He showed some nice tactics in both of his fights with Hit.

Not really. He just tanks Hit's move, "figures it out", and powers up even more. In fact, the entire Goku x Hit dynamic is based on skill vs power.

[Beyond]

What's impressive about Krillin sawing out a hole in the stage when Goku simply and easily jumped out? Resorting to those tactics just comes off as desperate and pathetic to me, just like they did when he tried them in DB. And they didn't work there either.

There was nothing desperate about sawing the floor below Goku. He did it to ring him out. It was a clever move because Goku had no knowledge that he did that.

It's desperate because he can't win without tricks. Look, you do what you gotta, but that's not impressive from a skill perspective.

Are you a Starcraft fan? Street Fighter? The worst players are the ones who have to rely on gimmicks to get them wins. The most skilled, the most impressive, are the ones who train the fundamentals so that gimmicks don't work on them. The thing about focusing on gimmicks is that they can be figured out, and once they are they cease to work. Fundamentals can't be. You either have to improve your own fundamentals to match them, or come up with a gimmick you hope they've never seen before; while simultaneously hoping they aren't simply so fundamentally sound that they won't counter it on the fly.

What's derisively referred to as "raw power" around here is in fact what true tactics is actually about in fighting. Strength, speed, and the mechanics of punching, kicking and guarding.

everything you said falls flat when someone is 1000x stronger than you because of plot. Coming up with tactics on fly is apart of skill as well, and Krillin does that.

[Simere]

everything you said falls flat when someone is 1000x stronger than you because of plot. Coming up with tactics on fly is apart of skill as well, and Krillin does that.

It's unfortunate when desire doesn't match ability, but that doesn't change anything.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Super has been emphasizing tactics, strategy, sneak attacks, teamwork, unique abilities and so on in favor of raw power. Now, I find this commendable. Toei's writers, Toriyama, Toyotaro or whoever decides to implement these aspects in the stories they write is doing a fantastic thing; raw power being the only deciding factor in a fight limits the series way too much.

The problem is... it doesn't work at this point. The series has gone for far too long proving that raw strength is the only win that will eventually win you a fight (and it's not even a Z thing, contrary to popular belief, DB displayed the same mentality countless times too). Even if you get some sneak attacks in, it's still pretty much useless in the face of overwhelming strength. Even if you fight as a group, it's useless. The series has strutted this mentality that raw power is the most important thing, above everything else, that deviating from it and doing the exact opposite now just seems unbelievable and inconsistent with what was previously shown.

And the fanbase seems divided. You've got one side who thinks this is great and couldn't care less about powerlevel debates as long as characters can get to do cool stuff. And you've got the other side, who's so completely blinded by numbers that they can't accept anything other than their meticulously calculated outcome. Both sides are looking at things without understanding the other side, but I really can't say one is more correct than the other.

Consistency and variety are both needed in a series and it seems that you can't have both. Which one's more important to you?

The reason that strategy can work in this tournament is because of the rules, flying isn't allowed, there are ring outs, and everyone has 9 other fighters to back them up. If the rules existed in other fights of the original manga, Piccolo would have beaten Freeza. SS Trunks would have beaten Fat Boo. (In the Super manga) Zamasu would have beaten SSG Vegeta. Kuririn defeated Gohan in the latest episode thanks to the rules.

[TheMathemagician]

He showed some nice tactics in both of his fights with Hit.

Not really. He just tanks Hit's move, "figures it out", and powers up even more. In fact, the entire Goku x Hit dynamic is based on skill vs power.

There really wasn't tanking hits at first when he had to figure out to out-predict Hit, something they were all impressed with. He didn't start tanking hits until he managed to think of predicting Hit's movements even faster than Hit could Time-Skip.

[GodVegetto91]

I don't care what anyone thinks of me, no human character that may not even be on Freeza/SSJ1 level, should ever come close to causing some trouble against the likes of Gohan and current SSJ Blue Goku. Hell even Base Goku would only need to use 1% of his power against the likes of Krillin the way he is now with all the God Power absorbed. Holding back or not doesn't make a difference in this case. The power gap is just WAY too extreme.

If you ask me, i don't care about variety and giving "the others" a chance to shine. I'm all for powerlevels and powerscaling. Hell, i'm one of the guys that prefers the "Goku and Vegeta Show" Gohan sure is welcome to join them, but as of right now it seems that's not going to happen anytime soon if it's up to the writers of the show.

(For me) Powerlevels>All

The reason why i (and many other "powerlevel enthousiasts") like the dragon ball series so much, is because it's ultimately a series that's based on power, strength, improvement, evolution! Goku and Vegeta are ofcourse the only full blooded saiyans in town, (hence the only one qualified to join the ranks of the celestials, since they belong to a "warrior race" afterall) who have managed to come across all odds, and managed to evolve themselves to levels beyond even SSJ God. Like i said, Gohan is welcome to join them. if anyone was going to have a chance to join Goku and Vegeta, it would be Gohan for obvious reasons. (His POTENTIAL) as demonstrated on a very young age. While the kids just don't seem to have it in them, (or rather, the writers want to keep Goten and Trunks on the same level as they've always had been, or so it seems)

Powerscaling is one of THE most important factors into keeping it a "consistent" show, especially when it comes to a show like this.

If the powergap between two characters is obviously to big, then they should keep it that way and thus stay consistent. The fact that they don't, shows that they don't care about it at all.

If i wanted to watch a show that relied on techniques, tactics, strategies, etc. Than i would've definitely picked another show! Dragon Ball is not the show for that, as the OP^ already made it clear, they've always heavily relied on brute strength throughout Z, as if that were the only effective method, and quite frankly, to actually change that, is to be inconsistent with previously established facts. And it's just not going to work in this franchise anymore. Fans get angry and dissapointed because of it, (and for good reason!) so they should just stick to continuing what they've always done. And that is keeping it power based.

(Now i have no problem with tactics being used against a character that is NOT MASSIVELY stronger than them) like, let's say, less than 2 times for instance. But if the gap is too big, (like hundreds/thousands, or even millions of times!) than it's obviously not something that i or any other powerlevel obsessed freak can swallow. It's as simple as that.

So in short, some fans like the show for laughs and fun, to get an emotional kick out of it, and for variety and fairness of other characters.

While others such as myself, like it mainly for consistency and powerbased facts and fair powerscaling. I'm obsessed with power afterall, and if someone is the best, than he should stay the best imo.

[Boo Machine]

if someone is the best, than he should stay the best imo.

Well with that logic Goku shouldn't surpass anyone. He wasn't always and still isn't the best. It just kind of flies in the face of what Gokus all about don't you think? To be the best? How can he do that if the guy that's the best stays the best? Which I think is odd because you yourself said one of the things this show is based off is Improvement.