The ToP started at 97 and we're now at 107 . How would you rank the episodes and the tournament as a whole thus far?

[buutenks]

Disappointed with all of them. The exhibition episodes were much better.

[Artorias]

I don't really understand why everyone likes 105 (the Roshi one) so much. I thought it was truly dreadful. It started with an uncomfortable, 5 minute rape joke, it ended with a horribly contrived near-death scene that I felt no emotion for whatsoever, and the animation was utter shit. I'm genuinely shocked that it has appeared towards the top of most people's lists.

I also think 98 is hugely underrated. That might be my third favorite behind 107 and 104. I was insanely hyped and enthralled with everything that happened in that episode. Maybe it's just because 97 was so mediocre that 98 restored my faith that this tournament could be exciting, or maybe it's just because I'm a sucker of Goku and Vegeta team ups, but either way, I love that episode.

[PsionicWarrior]

Won't go into precise episodes but generally IMO that arc started quite mediocre but since the last few episodes has found a good dynamic, I'm quite hyped for next episodes again.

[Cipher]

I don't really understand why everyone likes 105 (the Roshi one) so much. I thought it was truly dreadful. It started with an uncomfortable, 5 minute rape joke, it ended with a horribly contrived near-death scene that I felt no emotion for whatsoever, and the animation was utter shit. I'm genuinely shocked that it has appeared towards the top of most people's lists.

I'm with you in the trenches.

[PsionicWarrior]

I don't really understand why everyone likes 105 (the Roshi one) so much. I thought it was truly dreadful. It started with an uncomfortable, 5 minute rape joke, it ended with a horribly contrived near-death scene that I felt no emotion for whatsoever, and the animation was utter shit. I'm genuinely shocked that it has appeared towards the top of most people's lists.

I'm with you in the trenches.

I don't really have anything to say, for me best episode of the whole DBS, period.

[Tombstone1988]

I'm not assuming that you believe every episode is flawless. I'm just saying that episode #102 doesn't break the tone, mood, or theme much more than any other episode of the arc so far. That's my whole point. It's not much more different than those other examples. I will agree that it is like a stronger example of it, but not by much. In each example, characters are temporarily made silly and dumb in order to push a gag which comes at the expense of the tone, mood, and theme that a tournament about survival should have. Caway eliminating herself when her universe's survival is on the line is just as silly and stupid as Toppo & Goku berating #17 and letting the magical girls transform.

Fair enough. I guess I'm more equating the length of the tonal difference in episode 102 (the gag lasting nearly half an episode) to the severity. Other episodes do have their lighthearted quirks, but they tend to be a lot shorter in length, so it doesn't affect the mood in my mind as much. And I think we're both in agreement on the Caway one.

I'll grant you that, but I don't really think it's fine. I did call the episode stupid, because it's utterly stupid, but its stupidity that I can get on board with. This whole tournament is fairly mind numbing with some parts that are just dumb AND boring, but at least this was fun (to me and half the fandom anyway). I think it's the same for the half of the fanbase who like the Kale and Caulifla episodes. Those were at least fun to them, but to me dumb AND boring. My whole point was that a lot of people give episode #102 a lot of s*** for messing up the tone when really, no tone has been established for this tournament. It's been undermined since it started.

I can sort of see what you're getting at here, even if I don't fully agree. Our main difference of opinion is that you think there is no established tone while I think there is an underlying tone; a tone that, as you say, they do undercut a lot. It's trying to be this serious affair for survival, which is the tone, but they can't help but add that Toriyama humor. And I can even understand why. Lots of people love their Toriyama humor. I'd prefer they stick with one mindset to cement their theme, but hey, they can't please everybody.

It is different. Survival is many things, but mainly it's a mindset. Wanting to win fights can lead to survival, but it alone is not survival. Goku is winning fights, right? But he's let several opponents from universe 6 go when he could've eliminated them to protect his universe. That's not a survival mindset. Those opponents can easily catch him or one of his teammates off guard later and eliminate them. Everyone seems to have this competitive attitude, which would be great if this was just a tourney for a simple prize, but its a survival tournament, so things should be much more dire. The difference between wanting to win fights and wanting to survive is apparent in how Goku is treating this tourney vs. how Gohan is treating this tourney. In their attitudes, Goku: playful, curious, friendly, competitive, energetic. Gohan: cautious, guarded, silent, fearful, serious, somber. People are being erased. Their loved ones at home could be erased.

I can definitely agree that Goku isn't treating this tournament properly. In fact, Goku's characterization this arc is one of the bigger complaints I've seen thus far. When I referred to winning, in my mind I was thinking more on a universal level and less on an individual character fight basis. I perhaps didn't communicate that very well.

This is no time for fun, games, and gags (in universe).

This is a great quote because it's exactly my point in regards to episode 102. This is a fight for survival; they should be actually fighting for survival, not, you know, having a silly gag about magical girl transformations.

[BWri]

I'm not assuming that you believe every episode is flawless. I'm just saying that episode #102 doesn't break the tone, mood, or theme much more than any other episode of the arc so far. That's my whole point. It's not much more different than those other examples. I will agree that it is like a stronger example of it, but not by much. In each example, characters are temporarily made silly and dumb in order to push a gag which comes at the expense of the tone, mood, and theme that a tournament about survival should have. Caway eliminating herself when her universe's survival is on the line is just as silly and stupid as Toppo & Goku berating #17 and letting the magical girls transform.

Fair enough. I guess I'm more equating the length of the tonal difference in episode 102 (the gag lasting nearly half an episode) to the severity. Other episodes do have their lighthearted quirks, but they tend to be a lot shorter in length, so it doesn't affect the mood in my mind as much. And I think we're both in agreement on the Caway one.

It was a long gag and if you didn't find it funny, I feel your pain. Most of the other gags fall flat for me too, like the Caway one, but at least that's short.

I can sort of see what you're getting at here, even if I don't fully agree. Our main difference of opinion is that you think there is no established tone while I think there is an underlying tone; a tone that, as you say, they do undercut a lot. It's trying to be this serious affair for survival, which is the tone, but they can't help but add that Toriyama humor. And I can even understand why. Lots of people love their Toriyama humor. I'd prefer they stick with one mindset to cement their theme, but hey, they can't please everybody.

Seems we completely agree on this one. I was being hyperbolic by saying that the tournament hasn't established a tone. It's like you say, it's trying to establish one but -- in my eyes -- failing miserably at it.

This is a great quote because it's exactly my point in regards to episode 102. This is a fight for survival; they should be actually fighting for survival, not, you know, having a silly gag about magical girl transformations.

True and I see now that perhaps it was the biggest nail in the tone coffin for people already upset with the gags over logic aspect of the tourney. I hadn't thought of it like that, mainly cuz my brain was in off mode in order to enjoy the show.

[BWri]

I don't really understand why everyone likes 105 (the Roshi one) so much. I thought it was truly dreadful. It started with an uncomfortable, 5 minute rape joke, it ended with a horribly contrived near-death scene that I felt no emotion for whatsoever, and the animation was utter shit. I'm genuinely shocked that it has appeared towards the top of most people's lists.

Understandable. I can only speak for myself, but I liked it because it gave a prominent spotlight to someone other than Goku and made me feel something other than JUST nostalgia. There was nostalgia, to be sure, and the best nostalgia at that, original series nostalgia, but along with that was actual emotion. It was a character story that wasn't just "argh, I want to get stronger than you and beat you cuz you're a dick or to test your powers." It was determination, it was an old dog having a magnificent last stand, it was a master's farewell to his students (though it didn't last), it was a master learning a life lesson from his students, it was an old man that we all disregarded two series ago pushing past his limits and gaining the respect of a god. Mainly, it was just fine storytelling, which has been so severely missing from this show, that when we get something even remotely passable, it seems incredible. Honestly you're right, the Roshi episode shouldn't be getting this much praise. It had a ton of issues with power scaling and logic and if you take a microscope to it it pretty much falls apart, but it also doesn't have much competition when it comes to storytelling in this arc so far.

I also think 98 is hugely underrated. That might be my third favorite behind 107 and 104. I was insanely hyped and enthralled with everything that happened in that episode. Maybe it's just because 97 was so mediocre that 98 restored my faith that this tournament could be exciting, or maybe it's just because I'm a sucker of Goku and Vegeta team ups, but either way, I love that episode.

#98 was certainly the most I was interested in Goku and Vegeta in this battle royale so far. They had the most to do, a purpose for their actions, and looked damn cool fighting. The fights were fast and somewhat unique and U9 had a solid strategy and a badass team. I just think the problem is the fact that Goku and Vegeta holding back so much so essentially the big fight is meaningless. For Universe 9 it means everything, of course and I did cheer for them because, well, they were the underdogs. But the show writers felt the need to make Goku and Vegeta seem like the underdogs just because they're outnumbered, but we all see that they're barely resorting to using their weakest transformations. I think it would've been better if they'd stuck hardcore to that no Blue rule and were forced to at least use SSJ2 against U9. That way when their backs are against the wall and Goku suggests using SSB, Vegeta could scoff at him, say something about saiyan pride then they could put up a hard fought battle in SSJ2 to at least give that fight SOME real tension and give U9 more weight. But 98 gets major points from me for its ending.

My final opinion: Would've been more interesting if they'd cast U9 in a more sympathetic light or made them stronger threats and more memorable. As it stands, it's just a Goku and Vegeta sandbagging showcase which is fine I guess.