Tournament of Power is a major let down

[dbs fanboy]

Totally agree. All the cool designs end up being fodder. Everyone stands around doing nothing. Like hell I want Katopelsa to do something, he looks cool and even has a cool gimmick. But he'll get one shot and Caulifla will get 4 consecutive episodes. Zirloin's design looks awesome yet we barely see anything about him. Ribrianne gets all the focus yet she's made out to be weak. This arc is so underwhelming and could have been done much better.

Hey if your not jiren,u6 or u7,then your shit,read the rules.

I was talking about the Pre Tournament fights not the Ft Trunks arc. I liked to see a battle between gods of destruction , that was great and it used these new important characters that have been foreshadowed since BoG (i think), in a much better way than the anime. But i didn't like how we didn't get to see Gohan or Buu fight.Buu because his fight was cool, and Gohan, because his scenes were important to make him start trying to get "his warrior senses". Also, Toppo is pretty boring for me in the manga, i liked how he started calling Goku evil and all that crap in ep 82. In fact, his overly exagerated personality, is what makes me appreciate him so much more now for putting his feelings towards Goku aside once the tournament began. So far, Manga Toppo is another Jiren, with the ony difference being that he actually communicates with the cast.

Don't worry gohan will have his battle in the top and i'm sad buu didn't had his battle but hey the manga need to change thing,it would be pretty boring if they were the same.Goku is not evil in the manga so he didn't need bad mouth him and he is not like jiren,far from him,he will have his hero agenda,i'm sure of it.

I hope, but something needs to happen to Gohan that makes him realize he's strong but not a fighter, if Krllin kick his ass in the manga (using ToP rules), then i'll be satisfied.
Toppo needs to shout JUSTICE at least three times to make it believable in the manga

Edit: Now that i remember, i also missed "evil Goku", of course, he's not a bad guy, but i sure liked how all the gods were judging him and he was like "come at me bro", and of course how forget the time Toppo called him evil andhe replied saying "that's interesting".

Also where's the Trio de danger?, i guess it's going to be interesting seeing them fail to survive in the manga, as unlike the anime, they're not driven by vengeance so what could make them fuck things up?

[The gr]

I hope, but something needs to happen to Gohan that makes him realize he's strong but not a fighter, if Krllin kick his ass in the manga (using ToP rules), then i'll be satisfied.
Toppo needs to shout JUSTICE at least three times to make it believable in the manga

Edit: Now that i remember, i also missed "evil Goku", of course, he's not a bad guy, but i sure liked how all the gods were judging him and he was like "come at me bro", and of course how forget the time Toppo called him evil andhe replied saying "that's interesting".

Also where's the Trio de danger?, i guess it's going to be interesting seeing them fail to survive in the manga, as unlike the anime, they're not driven by vengeance so what could make them fuck things up?

Aw yeah my boy gohan who been training in gravity is gonna get rekt by krillin,this need to happen.

Toppo should have yelled justice kick when he defeated goku,i will wait for the moment where he save dyspo or kahseral.

Interesting,the trio de danger will be probaly eleminated by u11 hype or off screen or by goku because godtube.we should take this discussion here viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30467&start=18560

[Omniboy]

By the way i don't get the manga hype. Yeah, it's been good with it's differencies from the anime but it's not SO MUCH BETTER. The manga has some things that the anime doesn't and Viceversa (ehem other characters fighting besides Goku and Beerus, ehem Toppo's personality)

What do you mean by this,vegeta,trunks,kibito,other gods,piccolo(yes it was short but it counts) fougth in the manga,i'm sure other character will get their battle and toppo,is really silly to say he has no personality,maybe he is the hero of justice like in the anime,it be stupid if he is not considering jiren and dyspo have the same outfits.

I was talking about the Pre Tournament fights not the Ft Trunks arc. I liked to see a battle between gods of destruction , that was great and it used these new important characters that have been foreshadowed since BoG (i think), in a much better way than the anime. But i didn't like how we didn't get to see Gohan or Buu fight.Buu because his fight was cool, and Gohan, because his scenes were important to make him start trying to get "his warrior senses". Also, Toppo is pretty boring for me in the manga, i liked how he started calling Goku evil and all that crap in ep 82. In fact, his overly exagerated personality, is what makes me appreciate him so much more now for putting his feelings towards Goku aside once the tournament began. So far, Manga Toppo is another Jiren, with the ony difference being that he actually communicates with the cast.

But Goku hasn't done anything that rubs him the wrong way, and hasn't done anything that can be considered evil. There is literally no reason for Toppo to be confrontational with Goku or scream "JUSTICE." Having Toppo do any of that now will not make any sense especially now. In order for him to go "JUSTICE" there needs to be something that he deems unjust. Goku has not done anything that he can consider unjust.

[Doctor.]

I warned you all during the first two episodes that the arc already had a terrible start and it would set precedents for it to be garbage, but none of you listened.

[dbs fanboy]

What do you mean by this,vegeta,trunks,kibito,other gods,piccolo(yes it was short but it counts) fougth in the manga,i'm sure other character will get their battle and toppo,is really silly to say he has no personality,maybe he is the hero of justice like in the anime,it be stupid if he is not considering jiren and dyspo have the same outfits.

I was talking about the Pre Tournament fights not the Ft Trunks arc. I liked to see a battle between gods of destruction , that was great and it used these new important characters that have been foreshadowed since BoG (i think), in a much better way than the anime. But i didn't like how we didn't get to see Gohan or Buu fight.Buu because his fight was cool, and Gohan, because his scenes were important to make him start trying to get "his warrior senses". Also, Toppo is pretty boring for me in the manga, i liked how he started calling Goku evil and all that crap in ep 82. In fact, his overly exagerated personality, is what makes me appreciate him so much more now for putting his feelings towards Goku aside once the tournament began. So far, Manga Toppo is another Jiren, with the ony difference being that he actually communicates with the cast.

But Goku hasn't done anything that rubs him the wrong way, and hasn't done anything that can be considered evil. There is literally no reason for Toppo to be confrontational with Goku or scream "JUSTICE." Having Toppo do any of that now will not make any sense especially now. In order for him to go "JUSTICE" there needs to be something that he deems unjust. Goku has not done anything that he can consider unjust.

Oh, the Goku thing only works in the anime, in the manga can't happen as there it doesn't seem like Goku is getting blamed so yeah you're right.
And Toppo could start with the justice shit once he meets Freeza

I warned you all during the first two episodes that the arc already had a terrible start and it would set precedents for it to be garbage, but none of you listened.

Didn't listen, still not listening, CAULIFLA IS GOAT

[GohanRogers]

Besides the points I've made in the post, I would like to talk with you guys about 2 things that made me quite uncomfortable during this arc: Vegeta's character regression and the unnecessary "twist" of Freeza betraying Frost.

In the end of Z and through Super, We see another Vegeta, one that cares deeply about his family and is willing to do anything to protect them. But in the special, Vegeta refuses to give energy to Goku's Genki Dama, which brings me the question: did Vegeta really put his rivarly with Goku over his own family? Is this the same Vegeta who refused to enter the ToP to be there for his family but end up entering to save them? And don't tell me he was protecting Goku from Ribrianne, he clearly could have blasted her away and then give his energy to him. This is nothing but a HUGE character regression and a major plot hole for Vegeta's character.

Now talking about the "twist" of Freeza betraying Frost, was it really necessary? If Freeza is so much stronger than Frost and could knock him out so easily, why even bother to put up a fake fight with Gohan? They are making a huge point in saving energy in this tournament, even to the point of Gohan literally prefering to get a terrible beatdown from Jimeze instead of powering up to Ultimate/Mystic. So why would they waste energy pretending to fight while being in their strongest forms if Freeza and Gohan could simply join forces and easily take Frost out? The alliance Freeza made with Frost led them anywhere, it was pointless.

The more I think about this arc, the more I find mistakes and plot holes, it's really sad.

[RedHeat]

I warned you all during the first two episodes that the arc already had a terrible start and it would set precedents for it to be garbage, but none of you listened.

I'm never going to listen to you.

[Kataphrut]

Much as I've been enjoying the individual episodes lately (they have been on a good roll of quality since the special), the overall arc is starting to try my patience. My biggest issue is the lack of tension, and how Universe 7 is doing so well. It makes me feel like I'm rooting for the villains.

It's too early to judge based on synopsis, but the latest spoilers suggest we could see another Universe erased before Universe 7 loses it's next member. That's ridiculous. How are we supposed to buy these guys are in any kind of danger? Universe 6 feel more like the heroes at this point, they've had nearly as much focus, but have had characters go through actual loss and adversity. Even 11 feel like underdogs, and they've got a borderline cheat character on their team.

I'm sure this will all build up to a thrilling climax, but as cool as Goku v Jiren part one was and as much as I like Ultra Instinct conceptually, I don't know how it will maintain my investment enough to reach that point.

[Tombstone1988]

1 - It doesn't feel like a Battle Royale

Pretty much agree with your point here. It feels like the battle royale is just a backdrop so they can have a bunch of different characters interact with the main cast. It's only ever relevant to the plot when it's convenient to the writers. I feel like we're supposed to treat it as a "just don't think about it" point, but, unfortunately for Super, some of us do.

2 - Characters absent for 345135135 episodes until they finally appear again

For this point, I understand why some don't like it, but I also get why Super designs it this way. There are a lot of different characters in this tournament and this is a weekly show. If we were to follow three or four various plot lines each week, they would end up getting stretched quite thin and feel unsatisfying to a lot of viewers. In addition, the fact that Super's anime has individual episodes written by multiple different writers means it's harder to properly focus on multiple characters at a time. It's not great how they do things, but I feel like they're trying to work with their limitations.

3 - It doesn't feel like the survival of universes are at stake.

This is by far my biggest issue with this tournament. Nobody is taking the stakes of this tournament seriously. We had that chilling prospect presented at the end of episode 98; afterwards, we go back to acting like this is just another casual tournament, like the WMA Tournament or something. At first I thought Universe 11 might be taking this seriously, but after Jiren went and took a nap at the end of episode 111, even that idea has been tossed aside. Everyone stopped in episode 102 to crack jokes and admire the magical transformations. Episode 113 is literally titled "Joyfully!" There's no consistency in the tone. It really makes it hard to get truly invested.

4 - Powerscaling is a mess, killing all the tension and logic

Personally, I think it has less to do with terrible powerscaling and more to do with inconsistent writing, which, depending on who you ask, may or may not be the same thing. We were presented with the notion early on that Goku and Vegeta were not transforming because they needed to conserve stamina. Stamina was thrown around as the big deal for this tournament. Yet Goku seems to have little trouble keeping up with Kale and Caulifla in the latest episodes, despite being "fatigued," "exhausted," and "low on stamina." He's even going Super Saiyan Blue next week, something that's supposedly very taxing stamina-wise. Suddenly the whole stamina thing from earlier seems silly. Super Saiyan Blue is treated as a form with "perfect control," putting out however much power its user wants. This is fine, but apparently a tired SSG Goku can combat Kale. So why go Blue against Kale? If Blue is more stamina-intensive, why not just use SSG? Whis clearly states it's more efficient. There's also the concept of "cheap shots." In Z, if a character was much stronger than you, you couldn't even touch them (example, Krillin vs. Perfect Cell). In Super, however, cheap shots seem to have this massive advantage. It let a Freeza soldier mortally wound Goku and it let base Vegeta knock away a character stronger than SSJ Cabba. I could go on, but we'd be here all day.

5 - No character build up and no backstory for any new fighter

I wouldn't say for any of them, but yeah, a large number of them lack any proper characterization (JazzMazz made a topic where this was discussed). It's certainly a problem with the arc.


I think you did a good job with your topic/post here, presenting clear and significant points that demonstrated why you were disappointed with this arc thus far. Well done.

[Miracles]

I warned you all during the first two episodes that the arc already had a terrible start and it would set precedents for it to be garbage, but none of you listened.

Yep. You were right. Let's just hope it can get better and that the manga itself does better.

[gohan_black]

I'm sick of the TOP. I'm sick of goku. I'm sick of toei breaking their own TOP rules. all i wait for a week is for the dub release. seeing the goku black arc in english is far more interesting then the boring TOP

[Asura]

I wouldn't go as far to say it's a major let down, but it has been disappointing. I think everyone can obviously see that the way these episodes were structured, the way that the story flowed, and the way some characters were handled was just terrible. That being said though the execution is still decent and palatable and it's been a fun arc in general. I love the concept of the ToP, the look of the stadium, and all the different characters, even if only some are important.

Very surprised at how many people think this is the worst arc in the entirety of the franchise though, I have no idea what it's done to deserve that title other than the fact it's an arc that lasts more than 20 episodes which is very scary for some people who haven't seen Z in over 10 years and forgot how long all the arcs were but they loved them anyway.

I should also say I'm surprised at how many people say they're sick of Goku and how the Black arc was so much better, but the Black arc literally had a grand total of 5 characters, 2 of which are the antagonists. Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Black, and Zamasu. No one else even gets any screen time aside from Piccolo doing the Mafuba instructional video or something, or Bulma talking about the time machine. So the entire arc is really composed of 3 people. Compare that to the ToP arc which has a lot of new and old characters returning and getting focus. So why all of a sudden now is focus on Goku such a huge problem when there's been focus on Goku for literally Super's entire run? The Black arc was just the worst example of this because there weren't even any other characters aside from Vegeta and Trunks. At least here we have a lot of other characters that we bounce to, even if Goku is there too.

If the arc was such a disaster and such a major letdown that made people stop watching the show then the special wouldn't have been crashing tons of streaming websites, and Jiren vs Goku would not have received as much hype as Goku vs Zamasu did or something.

I warned you all during the first two episodes that the arc already had a terrible start and it would set precedents for it to be garbage, but none of you listened.

Ah yes, if only we had all listened to the wise Doctor. and stopped watching the show for an entire year.

[Kinokima]

In the end of Z and through Super, We see another Vegeta, one that cares deeply about his family and is willing to do anything to protect them. But in the special, Vegeta refuses to give energy to Goku's Genki Dama, which brings me the question: did Vegeta really put his rivarly with Goku over his own family? Is this the same Vegeta who refused to enter the ToP to be there for his family but end up entering to save them? And don't tell me he was protecting Goku from Ribrianne, he clearly couldn’t mean have blasted her away and then give his energy to him. This is nothing but a HUGE character regression and a major plot hole for Vegeta's character.
.

And this is another thing I am getting sick of this arc. Hearing people constantly say a character has regressed because of a few poorly written scenes. Yeah I disliked that scene too but it doesn’t mean I think Vegeta regressed.

Because of that one scene it means Vegeta doesn’t care about his family or Universe? I mean come on. This is what I mean by exaggeration. For the most part no one is truly acting like their Universe is in danger. Though that is part of the problem.

I know I know I am beating a dead horse at this point.

[Pannaliciour]

People always complain. We get every f.... episode a fight where in previous saga and especially in Z we had to wait for 10 episodes to see a fight!

Powerscaling bad? In Z Cell went from a cocoon to stronger than android 17 by absorbing 10 city's of people and learned IT and became ssj2 level by beeing a cell and regenerate itself in just wat.. 3 days?

Vegeta went from 30 years of training (pl 18000) to atleast frieza third form level in what... a week? (Without training)

Gohan went from pl 18.000 to 1 year in HTC and 10 hours sitting on his ass (grand kai) to become te strongest unfused character in history of Z

Goten en trunks went from base to ssj3 and matching super buu in what.. a month

And people are complaining that a Broly level character with a ssj 2 character with a fusion is stronger than a weaken ssjg Goku?

And about the tension and Universe on stake? Its a kids show just relax. Its just the beginning of arc

[sintzu]

But if this arc has done one thing amazingly well, it's Freeza. As long as he doesn't end up becoming a good guy, I think he's going to be the saving grace of this arc.

So far he hasn't done anything worth bringing him back for.

Well than make that 2 things at least.

Ultra Instinct!!!

Hopefully they don't mix it with SsjB as I think it looks great with Goku's base.

[Kaiosama]

People so angry about Kale and Caulifa's power creep shouldn't forget the fact that Future Trunks had even more of a ass pull power up. Vegeta isn't that far behind with the BS ass pull skipping SSJ3 and SSJG all the way to SSJB, or Frieza training for 4 months to get to God level. It's the nature of Super. The power creep is ridiculous because Goku has gotten so strong and the writers have to be able to challenge him.

[The_Destroyer]

Besides the points I've made in the post, I would like to talk with you guys about 2 things that made me quite uncomfortable during this arc: Vegeta's character regression and the unnecessary "twist" of Freeza betraying Frost.

In the end of Z and through Super, We see another Vegeta, one that cares deeply about his family and is willing to do anything to protect them. But in the special, Vegeta refuses to give energy to Goku's Genki Dama, which brings me the question: did Vegeta really put his rivarly with Goku over his own family? Is this the same Vegeta who refused to enter the ToP to be there for his family but end up entering to save them? And don't tell me he was protecting Goku from Ribrianne, he clearly could have blasted her away and then give his energy to him. This is nothing but a HUGE character regression and a major plot hole for Vegeta's character.

Now talking about the "twist" of Freeza betraying Frost, was it really necessary? If Freeza is so much stronger than Frost and could knock him out so easily, why even bother to put up a fake fight with Gohan? They are making a huge point in saving energy in this tournament, even to the point of Gohan literally prefering to get a terrible beatdown from Jimeze instead of powering up to Ultimate/Mystic. So why would they waste energy pretending to fight while being in their strongest forms if Freeza and Gohan could simply join forces and easily take Frost out? The alliance Freeza made with Frost led them anywhere, it was pointless.

The more I think about this arc, the more I find mistakes and plot holes, it's really sad.

Frieza needed to lure Frost into a false sense of security. Frost kept running away from every fight, he even managed to get away from SSB Vegeta. So he'd probably get away from Golden Frieza too.

[GodVegetto91]

But if this arc has done one thing amazingly well, it's Freeza. As long as he doesn't end up becoming a good guy, I think he's going to be the saving grace of this arc.

So far he hasn't done anything worth bringing him back for.

Well than make that 2 things at least.

Ultra Instinct!!!

Hopefully they don't mix it with SsjB as I think it looks great with Goku's base.

Absolutely agreed. The Ultra Instinct Ability/Mastery of Self-Movement Technique should only be accessible to Goku in his new "Ultra Instinct Omen Form" we saw him in.

[Kataphrut]

People so angry about Kale and Caulifa's power creep shouldn't forget the fact that Future Trunks had even more of a ass pull power up. Vegeta isn't that far behind with the BS ass pull skipping SSJ3 and SSJG all the way to SSJB, or Frieza training for 4 months to get to God level. It's the nature of Super. The power creep is ridiculous because Goku has gotten so strong and the writers have to be able to challenge him.

It's worth noting that for all the complaints about Caulifla and Kale gaining tremendous power...they really haven't. The way some go on, you'd think they were getting a new form for every episode they appeared and were now on par with the Grand Priest or something. Caulifla was naturally strong enough to gain Super Saiyan 2 off the bat and training with Goku has made her better at controlling it, and at martial arts in general. But at the end of the day, Super Saiyan 2 is still her best form and it got clobbered by a fatigued Super Saiyan God. Like, she lost hard. So it's not fair to call her gains in the ToP an "asspull" when she hasn't gained anything substantial since it started.

As for Kale, she's your classic naturally gifted mutant character in the vein of Freeza or Gohan. She started off insanely strong but uncontrollable, and her progress in the Tournament has been all about gaining weaker forms with the benefit of control, before finally tapping into a mastered Berserk form...that is again, flogged by God. And this has all been tied to her character development and her relationship with Caulifla.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

I didn't have much expectations after knowing that this story arc was going to be another tournament so I'm not as annoyed as some of you are. But, yeah DBS' poor execution is at it again. Battle power issues are least of my concern though. I don't care about that.

It is just a failure on a pacing, characterization, setting and tonal front. Shame cause the staff has stepped up their game on the visual front but yikes the source material is hot garbage outside of a few exceptions. I guess this is one of those instances where even visual consistency cannot save it.