IMO, the biggest problem with ToP in the anime

[Miracles]

Most people don't care about payoff or story, they just want to see their favorites win. Toei understands this, which is why characters suddenly getting stronger and doing insane feats are what gets them hype. A LOT of people are praising the recent episode because it delivered on what they wanted for a character they liked, logic be damned

DANG. Truth. Entertainment > coherency of a story. Especially in a show just about flash, what do they expect.

[Hawk9211]

certain things being set up then hastily or awkwardly re-routed into new directions, progressively worse and worse transformations and worse explanations for how characters get stronger, more and more of the cast just being on autopilot just to name a few off the top of my head.

Regarding the bolded, I think the transformations are actually quite interesting, and, for the most part, handled quite well. To quote myself from a recent thread:
[spoiler]

Super Saiyan Grade II and Grade III:
These are interesting. We see Vegeta "transcend the Super Saiyan wall" first, and it's a great success. When things get more dire, Trunks steps up to transcend it even further. Since the arc's introduction, Trunks is seen as someone who has a leg up on Vegeta. Where Vegeta failed to become a Super Saiyan and got killed by Freeza, Trunks shows up, shows that he (like Goku, but unlike Vegeta) can access the form, and fells Freeza effortlessly. So, naturally, we would once again expect Trunks to succeed where Vegeta had failed. This turns out to not be the case. Grade III shows how much of a novice Trunks really is compared to his seniors (Goku and Vegeta), when it comes to actual self-improvement and skill on the battlefield. Vegeta doesn't use the form, and Trunks' use of it is punctuated by Goku trying it out in the RoSaT. It sets up a nice dichotomy between speed and power. Cell, the one lecturing Trunks about the naivete of using such a form, goes on to make the same mistake in a fit of rage against Gohan, which I think is a cool comeuppance.

Super Saiyan 2:
At the time of its first appearance, it really embodies Gohan's hidden power and potential come to life: he's now way more powerful than anyone else. The back half of the Cell arc involves a lot of foreshadowing that Gohan's potential, which had been slowly displayed over the course of the preceding two story arcs, will finally come out in full force. Chichi tells Goku to make him as strong as possible. Gohan's struggle to become a Super Saiyan runs parallel to Cell's struggle to achieve perfection. Likewise, Gohan's attainment of Super Saiyan runs parallel to Cell's absorption of #18. Goku implies that he discovered something incredible in the RoSaT, but makes it repeatedly clear that he (Goku) stands absolutely no chance.

Super Saiyan 3:
Given that the two prior story arcs were resolved with a new Super Saiyan form, the expectation is set up that this one would likewise save the day. Toriyama subverts both that reoccurring plot point, and the audience's expectations. It's presented as a truly final form for the Saiyans, able to be sensed all the way out in the Kaioshin Realm. It's also interesting how it totally screws with Goku's remaining time, and is more sustainable while dead. Takes the "double-edged sword" aspect of Grade III and turns it up to 11.

[/spoiler]

Regarding the rest, I can't exactly agree or disagree without knowing what specifics you have in mind.

I can name 7 aspects of Cell and Buu that have laid the groundwork for both shows.

1. Goku's character- All of bad Goku memes came from the Cell saga and paints Goku in probably the worst light in the entire 42 volume. He does not care about his son's feeligs and Piccolo does.He does not care about the Earth but he would never put it in danger. He gives senzu beans to cell which did not have an effect that we saw but the principle behind it was in Goku's words, to give Gohan a fair fight when Gohan never wanted that. Goku had no plan on triggering Gohan so why did he depend on his anger to help him? When ever anyone defends Goku's characterization in Super, we go to that arc immediately.

2.The diminishing of super saiyan- Look, there is no way to cut it, the Cell saga destroyed the super saiyan transformation in more ways than one. It did by first giving it to every single saiyan alive so much for being legendary and by adding grades and second form, the first one become obsolete and this is a problem for something that had a legendary opening and backstory. Free

3.Time travel nonsense- Just like how the Future trunks arc made sense until Black's backstory was explained, Cell saga made sense until's Cell's story was explained. That nonsense lead to greater nonsense.

4.Characters coming out of nowhere to settle the big bads- You know how fans are made about Vegeta having so much focus at the end of ToP because he wasn't taht involved in the beginning? Did you also know that Gohan's first fight in the Cell saga is his fight against Cel?!

5. Things not being paid off- Where do I begin with this? The androids were built up to be this menacing threat and they weren't because Cell showed up. It devalues them because they were never properly defeated unlike say all of Freeza's army. The button we spent episodes upon episodes building got smashed at the last second. Tien's big moment is instantly destroyed because of Vegeta. Trunks was built up to be important but he also wasn't. Kamiccolo accomplishes nothing that impacts the story, he actually made it worse.

6. Inconsistent characterization- Vegeta is the worst in the Cell saga. he went from being cunning on namek to the cause of multiple of problems in the Cell saga. Gohan's passiveness which did not prevent him from fighting Recome by himself when he was 5 yet he scared to fight Cell. Then there is him becoming an arrogant prick when he went 2 which has never ever ever been a thing about him not even when he went super saiyan. thats Goku's thing, speaking of, Goku was a huge hypocrite yelling at his son for not killing Cell as fast as possible when he has let he has let worse way worse go.

7. Lack of character usage- The Freeza saga is truly the last saga anyone other than the saiyans mattered. Krillin mattered just as much as Gohan did on Namek. The Cell saga, there is not one thing anyone truly does that matters, Tien's kikoho, Krillin getting the button, Yamcha is Yamcha'd, Piccolo is immediately fodderized after one good fight.

I completely agree with you.However,I would like to add the following:
8.The lack of actual martial arts - Basically,no character outside of goku and new characters does some something new.At most variations,like final flash which is basically a powered up galick gun.Hellzone grenade even though cool is actually a lot of ki blasts that is focused at one point.
9.Power aspect being blown out of proprtion - This actually ties in with above point.Power becomes the answer to everything:turned into a candy,trapped into an alternate dimension or someone regenerates through everything thrown at him just punch harder.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

I think the biggest problem with this saga is the lack of tension, lack of explanation, it came right after another tournament and no feeling of royale battle. And what's worse, the latter was heavily marketed when the saga was announced. It had potential (as most sagas), but once again the bad execution prevailed and we got a mediocre saga (though I must point out that the use of Super Saiyan 2 was awesome!).

Yeah, I dont see this at all

The tournament of power arc has been the best arc of Super by far

I've loved watching it.

Eposides 110, 116, 118, 121, 123 are some of my all time favorite eposides in Dragon Ball history


If you look at polls, the vast majority of people are loving the tournament of power arc, LOVED UI GOKU, LOVED Goku vs Kefla etc

[Grimlock]

It's because people value battles over anything else. I value content, I value the lore of Dragon Ball becoming greater and rich with information and actual story. There's no way a saga with only battles and no plot at all (besides other major problems) can be the best saga.

[Zephyr]

Sorry for the belated and dense reply. It was a lot to dissect, so it was a long write-up.

1. Goku's character- All of bad Goku memes came from the Cell saga and paints Goku in probably the worst light in the entire 42 volume. He does not care about his son's feeligs and Piccolo does.He does not care about the Earth but he would never put it in danger. He gives senzu beans to cell which did not have an effect that we saw but the principle behind it was in Goku's words, to give Gohan a fair fight when Gohan never wanted that. Goku had no plan on triggering Gohan so why did he depend on his anger to help him? When ever anyone defends Goku's characterization in Super, we go to that arc immediately.

Son Goku is, and always has been, quite dense. His upbringing was very unconventional. He's socially awkward, naive, and obtuse. He's a martial artist. He's a fighter. He trains. This is how he enjoys spending his time. These are his interests and hobbies.

Gohan is not his father, and Goku didn't know that. He's never been the kind of guy to talk with other people about their feelings. Goku was (ostensibly) around for Gohan's early childhood, and every lick of time since has involved fighting alongside, or training alongside, his son. Not chatting. Not having deep introspective pow-wows. His tragic misunderstanding of Gohan as a person is perfectly in line with this. His absurd regression in intelligence in Super has nothing to do with the natural conflict of interest he has with his son in the Cell arc.

2.The diminishing of super saiyan- Look, there is no way to cut it, the Cell saga destroyed the super saiyan transformation in more ways than one. It did by first giving it to every single saiyan alive so much for being legendary and by adding grades and second form, the first one become obsolete and this is a problem for something that had a legendary opening and backstory. Free

One of Dragon Ball's cardinal themes is that nothing is sacred. Shen Long's supposed ability to grant any wish that those beckoning him could possibly desire? Turns out to not be the case; there are actual mechanics involving the power of his creator. Muten Roshi, told to be among the most wise and gifted martial arts masters, is a lecherous pervert. A vast pantheon of gods turn out to be pretty normal dudes just doing their jobs.

The Super Saiyan legend turning out to be a biological function that other members of the species have theoretical access to is perfectly in line with this. Moreover, in the one story arc where the form is indeed presented as a legend, Goku is still the only one to acquire it, and he does so in a very climactic and narratively satisfying comeuppance for Freeza. Future Trunks' initial usage of it is in service of an insane surprise. Vegeta and Gohan don't exactly have it handed to them. And when Goten and Trunks receive the form, the ease with which they receive it is in service of a joke.

As for the grades, I've already gone into detail why I think they serve a really good function in the story, creatively contrasting the difference in mastery that each of these fighters possess. Moreover, it serves to help reinforce Gohan's gradual movement onto the top: we see Vegeta and Trunks display their approach to Cell, while Goku simultaneously dismisses it to Gohan. Goku then teaches Gohan his approach, only for Gohan to take it another step forward and make something of his own that synthesizes the state perfectly with a potent capability he's displayed since his introduction (his rage). And, finally, Super Saiyan 3 perfectly subverts the two-arc-strong trope of a new Super Saiyan transformation saving the day, in a fantastic feat of self-awareness on Toriyama's part.

In GT, Super Saiyan 4 was a creative combination of the two famous already existing forms of Saiyan transformation. In Battle of Gods, Super Saiyan God is something that was only possible through teamwork, a bitter pill for Goku to swallow, which he and Beerus discuss during their fight. In Super's manga, Super Saiyan Blue is presented as having a tremendous drawback, which Goku and Vegeta take different approaches to circumventing, somewhat echoing the Cell arc.

What Trunks does in the Black arc and what Vegeta's done in the Tournament of Power are cut from a different cloth. They have no build up. They're not creative twists on something already existing. They don't elucidate anything new or interesting or poignant about the characters and their difference in skill and approach to things. They're just powerups that happen, just because, and they don't seem to impact the narrative in any significant way on any significant level.

3.Time travel nonsense- Just like how the Future trunks arc made sense until Black's backstory was explained, Cell saga made sense until's Cell's story was explained. That nonsense lead to greater nonsense.

I found Dragon Ball's time travel to be more coherent than a made-up-as-it-went-along story by Akira Toriyama has any right to be. I don't think it's perfect, but I don't see what about it in particular has done to negatively impact Super's writing.

4.Characters coming out of nowhere to settle the big bads- You know how fans are made about Vegeta having so much focus at the end of ToP because he wasn't taht involved in the beginning? Did you also know that Gohan's first fight in the Cell saga is his fight against Cel?!

Gohan being the one to defeat Cell isn't as out of nowhere as people seem to think. For starters, Gohan's potential to surpass literally everyone has been a dangling thread since his introduction. In the Cell arc proper, as soon as Goku wakes up from his nap, he takes Vegeta and Trunks....and Gohan to the Room of Spirit and Time with him. He's intent on transforming Gohan into a Super Saiyan. This is all that we need to expect Gohan to play a bigger role in the finale than he had in the two prior arcs.

When Gohan actually does become a Super Saiyan, it is punctuated quite gracefully by Cell becoming Perfect. Every time I re-read this arc in the manga, this stands out to me. If that's not setting Gohan and Cell up for an eventual showdown, I don't know what is. Lastly, we have Goku simultaneously not confident in his own ability to defeat Cell and visibly not at all worried about that fact. And when we get to the actual tournament, if it wasn't already obvious, Goku is the first one to fight, rather than showing up later on to save everyone's skin. It's still something of a shocking reveal when Goku throws in the towel and sends Gohan in, asserting that he will be the one to defeat Cell, but it's definitely not out of nowhere. Upon further reflection, I can't help but applaud Toriyama for how thoroughly, but still subtly, he set that up.

Now, applying this to Vegeta in the Tournament of Power, his importance indeed came relatively out of nowhere, given the amount of buildup they could have given him, but didn't. I'm not sure why his having a new daughter wouldn't instantly motivate him to go to this tournament to win. That said, Super as a whole has, again, been about Goku and Vegeta training under Whis. Vegeta not being important for the climax would be strange.

5. Things not being paid off- Where do I begin with this? The androids were built up to be this menacing threat and they weren't because Cell showed up. It devalues them because they were never properly defeated unlike say all of Freeza's army. The button we spent episodes upon episodes building got smashed at the last second. Tien's big moment is instantly destroyed because of Vegeta. Trunks was built up to be important but he also wasn't. Kamiccolo accomplishes nothing that impacts the story, he actually made it worse.

I agree with some of this, and disagree with some of this.

I think it was actually interesting to have the Cyborgs hyped up as the big threat to be defeated, only to be forced to team up with our heroes to stop Cell partway through. It's not like they were pure evil, or anything. #16 had already made it abundantly clear that he only intended to fight Goku, and seemed infatuated with nature. #17 and #18 even spared Krillin. God himself was somewhat apprehensive about powering Piccolo up just to kill them, since they hadn't even really done anything yet. Like Gohan's becoming the protagonist at the arc's climax, this one wasn't as completely out of nowhere as most seem to think. And, regardless of all else, them getting put to the side as the main antagonists of the arc made way for a fantastic, if brief, bit of mystery and horror for the series.

Vegeta is a complete asshole. That's the place in life he's at throughout this arc. Having him there adds a third party into the mix, and provides another layer of tension and drama, because Goku, the only member of the cast who could do anything about it, isn't around to keep him check. He particularly butts heads with Trunks throughout the arc, when Vegeta doesn't save Bulma, when Vegeta insists on letting Gero wake the cyborgs up, and most notably, when Vegeta allows Cell to continue pursuing #18. This serves to gradually take Vegeta off of the pedestal that Trunks saw Vegeta as sitting on.

And Trunks was absolutely important; the survival of the entire cast (sans Goku, ultimately) wouldn't have been possible without him. Moreover, the arc ultimately concludes with him returning to his future with new wisdom, strength, and intel from the past, allowing him to save his world. And regardless of that, if nothing else, he served to give the arc one hell of an unexpected and exciting opening.

Piccolo's fusion with Kami, Tenshinhan's Kikoho, and Krillin's destruction of the controller are all mixed bags for me. On one hand, the first two are amazing character moments. For Piccolo, it's the culmination of his entire character arc: from Demon Jr., to hesitant rival, to sacrificing himself to save his mortal enemy's son's life, to fusing with God himself. Tenshinhan's Kikoho is a rare showing of ingenuity from Tenshinhan in a story that largely doesn't care about such showings anymore, and it's an incredible breath of fresh air in an arc where the Saiyans and Piccolo seem to be doing all of the heavy lifting. Neither directly amount to anything: Cell gets attracted to the Cyborgs by Piccolo's fight, and Tenshinhan's gambit neither kills him nor allows #18 to escape. Piccolo's fusion, however, at least prompts the return of Dende, and the subsequent upgrading of the Earth's Dragon Ball's, so his fusion with Kami can't be said to amount to nothing. I won't defend Krillin's destruction of the controller. That's indeed really dumb and wasteful. In the long run, though? It pays off by setting up #18's integration with the rest of the cast, and directly contributes to Krillin becoming a family man.

6. Inconsistent characterization- Vegeta is the worst in the Cell saga. he went from being cunning on namek to the cause of multiple of problems in the Cell saga. Gohan's passiveness which did not prevent him from fighting Recome by himself when he was 5 yet he scared to fight Cell. Then there is him becoming an arrogant prick when he went 2 which has never ever ever been a thing about him not even when he went super saiyan. thats Goku's thing, speaking of, Goku was a huge hypocrite yelling at his son for not killing Cell as fast as possible when he has let he has let worse way worse go.

I think Vegeta's 100% in character here. He's never been good. He's only cooperated out of necessity. He's only kept around due to a combination of Goku still wanting a rematch with him, and nobody else really being in a position to do anything about it. I don't see how him causing problems is anything but expected. Like on Namek, it maintains him as a third party who can help or hinder, depending on the situation, and I think that leaves a bit of unexpectedness throughout, and I think that's a good thing. Freeza at the in the Tournament of Power is reminiscent of this.

Regarding the classic Gohan debate, I personally don't think he was out of character. However, I don't think Toriyama handled Gohan's inner conflict particularly gracefully. He's indeed always been very gung-ho about fighting. I'm sympathetic to the interpretation that as he gets older, he starts to become more conflicted about inflicting pain onto others. However, I think Toriyama should have done more to set this up. Another possibility I've just though of, was maybe Gohan was seeing the potential for Cell becoming good later on down the road, like Piccolo had. Perhaps Toriyama was intending to write Gohan, in this moment, the way Funimation tried to write Goku during the Saiyan arc? Regardless, even then, Toriyama could have done more to elucidate that.

I'm also sympathetic to the interpretation that Gohan was worried about having his full power unleashed through anger specifically while in the Super Saiyan state. However, once again, Toriyama should have done more to set this up. Him becoming an arrogant prick, I'm fine with. The Super Saiyan form, at least up to this point, was always supposed to heighten aggressive tendencies. On Namek, Goku behaves terribly inconsistently after becoming a Super Saiyan, and I've personally chalked that up to the state itself clouding his judgment.

I do think it's hypocritical of Goku to tell Gohan to stop messing around, when Goku is the king of messing around. I don't think it's terribly inconsistent with his character, though. He's finally in the shoes that everyone else has been for ages. It's actually rather amusing to me to see him forced onto the other side of that fence for once, and actually being worried like the rest of them. It's a nice little comeuppance for the character who has, up until this point, been our protagonist.

7. Lack of character usage- The Freeza saga is truly the last saga anyone other than the saiyans mattered. Krillin mattered just as much as Gohan did on Namek. The Cell saga, there is not one thing anyone truly does that matters, Tien's kikoho, Krillin getting the button, Yamcha is Yamcha'd, Piccolo is immediately fodderized after one good fight.

Dragon Ball has had a steadily growing cast since its onset. As it has gone on, it has only continued to grow. I think there's an inherent difficulty to making use of the entire cast when it becomes that large. As such, I don't think there's a particularly huge problem with only using some of the cast for each arc. Bulma isn't terribly useful during the tournament arcs, because it's an arc about the fighters and a tournament where they're fighting each other. Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu aren't very "useful" during the Saiyan arc, but their inability to make a dent in Nappa serves to showcase how overconfident everyone was going in, and how nightmarishly powerful these invaders truly arc.

Now, in the Cell arc, the non-Saiyan characters indeed aren't very useful in combat. And I think that's ultimately okay. It's a story about the Saiyan characters, in the end. The tension that results from keeping someone like Vegeta around on Earth, Trunks' chance to cultivate a relationship with his father, Gohan's long-awaited payoff as becoming their greatest asset in the end, and everyone's different methods for evolving the Super Saiyan state. Sometimes you have an arc for the fighters, sometimes you have an arc for the Saiyans. Neither of these ideas are good or bad in and of themselves, and I think in the case of having an arc for the Saiyans, Toriyama did a lot of interesting stuff with it.

And it's not like all of the non-Saiyans were twiddling their thumbs the whole time. The arc only happens to begin with because Bulma, a human, created a time machine. She creates the controller. She rebuilds #16 (who goes on to trigger Gohan's transformation). Yamcha serves to be the one to learn that the Androids can absorb their ki, and he's the one who safely transports Goku home after he's out of commission. Krillin, coward that he is, manages to stay conscious long enough to save everyone else with senzu after #17 and #18 defeat them soundly. Piccolo and Tenshinhan, their efforts not amounting to much directly, serve to further drive home the point that keeping someone like Vegeta around is horribly reckless.

And in the Buu arc, oh boy. Piccolo is the one to ultimately teach the boys fusion, and he serves as an absolutely wonderful character foil/mentor character to Gotenks. Tenshinhan comes in out of nowhere with a clutch save. And, the peoples' champ himself, Mr. Satan puts in some fucking work throughout the entire arc. Not only does he do the one thing that (almost; can't forget about Gohan) nobody ever thinks to do (just talk to the dude and ask him to stop), he also uses his unearned overblown fame and prestige to convince the Earthlings to donate enough genki to decisively wipe Buu out for good.

---

You say that these arcs laid the groundwork for the story developments in GT and Super, and yet everything before these arcs laid the groundwork for them. X being a weak followup on Y doesn't speak poorly for Y, it speaks poorly for X. If the Cell and Buu arcs are to be blamed for Super's ills, then you can't say that the Saiyan and Namek arcs aren't likewise to be blamed for the Cell and Buu arc's ills. And so on, backwards, until the very beginning of the series.

A common thread I'm seeing is that Super's anime, at least, seems to have copied certain developments that the Cell and Buu arcs brought, without paying any mind to the point that those developments had for the story. Dragon Ball was in a constant state of evolution. Something is important and sacred at one point in time, and it's trivial and constitutive of the status quo the next. Some characters are important here, and then they'll fall to the wayside later. We start with a small group of kids, and we end with large families and a vast network of friends and allies. One of the coolest things about Dragon Ball is that time always moved forward, and the natural consequences of that are seen in every arc.

Super's problem is that it is stagnant, safe, and familiar. It's not as ambitious, reckless, or explorative. It is in some ways, but it doesn't live and breathe it like Dragon Ball always did during the original run.

For all of these developments that Toriyama's story naturally evolved to, all of the cracks in their execution, I think, come down almost entirely to the guy having been working on the thing for too long. He was burnt out. He'd been doing it weekly for a long time. I don't think the kinds of stories he was telling, or even largely the way he told them, are really that bad. I do think that they're far and away the weakest of the manga's original run, but I think that's also besides the point.

Super's borked execution is a different problem entirely. Rather than coming from a single burnt out writer, it's been coming from a committee of people, most of whom don't really seem to understand the original story, how it was told, how its ever-forward momentum was impressive and admirable and interesting, and how the characters acted and grew and reacted to each other and the things happening around them. I think Toriyama ended his long sweeping epic in a fairly natural way. I don't think you can blame the way he handled his climax and conclusion for Super's production being a mess.

[Totamo]

Sorry for the belated and dense reply. It was a lot to dissect, so it was a long write-up.

1. Goku's character- All of bad Goku memes came from the Cell saga and paints Goku in probably the worst light in the entire 42 volume. He does not care about his son's feeligs and Piccolo does.He does not care about the Earth but he would never put it in danger. He gives senzu beans to cell which did not have an effect that we saw but the principle behind it was in Goku's words, to give Gohan a fair fight when Gohan never wanted that. Goku had no plan on triggering Gohan so why did he depend on his anger to help him? When ever anyone defends Goku's characterization in Super, we go to that arc immediately.

Son Goku is, and always has been, quite dense. His upbringing was very unconventional. He's socially awkward, naive, and obtuse. He's a martial artist. He's a fighter. He trains. This is how he enjoys spending his time. These are his interests and hobbies.

Gohan is not his father, and Goku didn't know that. He's never been the kind of guy to talk with other people about their feelings. Goku was (ostensibly) around for Gohan's early childhood, and every lick of time since has involved fighting alongside, or training alongside, his son. Not chatting. Not having deep introspective pow-wows. His tragic misunderstanding of Gohan as a person is perfectly in line with this. His absurd regression in intelligence in Super has nothing to do with the natural conflict of interest he has with his son in the Cell arc.

2.The diminishing of super saiyan- Look, there is no way to cut it, the Cell saga destroyed the super saiyan transformation in more ways than one. It did by first giving it to every single saiyan alive so much for being legendary and by adding grades and second form, the first one become obsolete and this is a problem for something that had a legendary opening and backstory. Free

One of Dragon Ball's cardinal themes is that nothing is sacred. Shen Long's supposed ability to grant any wish that those beckoning him could possibly desire? Turns out to not be the case; there are actual mechanics involving the power of his creator. Muten Roshi, told to be among the most wise and gifted martial arts masters, is a lecherous pervert. A vast pantheon of gods turn out to be pretty normal dudes just doing their jobs.

The Super Saiyan legend turning out to be a biological function that other members of the species have theoretical access to is perfectly in line with this. Moreover, in the one story arc where the form is indeed presented as a legend, Goku is still the only one to acquire it, and he does so in a very climactic and narratively satisfying comeuppance for Freeza. Future Trunks' initial usage of it is in service of an insane surprise. Vegeta and Gohan don't exactly have it handed to them. And when Goten and Trunks receive the form, the ease with which they receive it is in service of a joke.

As for the grades, I've already gone into detail why I think they serve a really good function in the story, creatively contrasting the difference in mastery that each of these fighters possess. Moreover, it serves to help reinforce Gohan's gradual movement onto the top: we see Vegeta and Trunks display their approach to Cell, while Goku simultaneously dismisses it to Gohan. Goku then teaches Gohan his approach, only for Gohan to take it another step forward and make something of his own that synthesizes the state perfectly with a potent capability he's displayed since his introduction (his rage). And, finally, Super Saiyan 3 perfectly subverts the two-arc-strong trope of a new Super Saiyan transformation saving the day, in a fantastic feat of self-awareness on Toriyama's part.

In GT, Super Saiyan 4 was a creative combination of the two famous already existing forms of Saiyan transformation. In Battle of Gods, Super Saiyan God is something that was only possible through teamwork, a bitter pill for Goku to swallow, which he and Beerus discuss during their fight. In Super's manga, Super Saiyan Blue is presented as having a tremendous drawback, which Goku and Vegeta take different approaches to circumventing, somewhat echoing the Cell arc.

What Trunks does in the Black arc and what Vegeta's done in the Tournament of Power are cut from a different cloth. They have no build up. They're not creative twists on something already existing. They don't elucidate anything new or interesting or poignant about the characters and their difference in skill and approach to things. They're just powerups that happen, just because, and they don't seem to impact the narrative in any significant way on any significant level.

3.Time travel nonsense- Just like how the Future trunks arc made sense until Black's backstory was explained, Cell saga made sense until's Cell's story was explained. That nonsense lead to greater nonsense.

I found Dragon Ball's time travel to be more coherent than a made-up-as-it-went-along story by Akira Toriyama has any right to be. I don't think it's perfect, but I don't see what about it in particular has done to negatively impact Super's writing.

4.Characters coming out of nowhere to settle the big bads- You know how fans are made about Vegeta having so much focus at the end of ToP because he wasn't taht involved in the beginning? Did you also know that Gohan's first fight in the Cell saga is his fight against Cel?!

Gohan being the one to defeat Cell isn't as out of nowhere as people seem to think. For starters, Gohan's potential to surpass literally everyone has been a dangling thread since his introduction. In the Cell arc proper, as soon as Goku wakes up from his nap, he takes Vegeta and Trunks....and Gohan to the Room of Spirit and Time with him. He's intent on transforming Gohan into a Super Saiyan. This is all that we need to expect Gohan to play a bigger role in the finale than he had in the two prior arcs.

When Gohan actually does become a Super Saiyan, it is punctuated quite gracefully by Cell becoming Perfect. Every time I re-read this arc in the manga, this stands out to me. If that's not setting Gohan and Cell up for an eventual showdown, I don't know what is. Lastly, we have Goku simultaneously not confident in his own ability to defeat Cell and visibly not at all worried about that fact. And when we get to the actual tournament, if it wasn't already obvious, Goku is the first one to fight, rather than showing up later on to save everyone's skin. It's still something of a shocking reveal when Goku throws in the towel and sends Gohan in, asserting that he will be the one to defeat Cell, but it's definitely not out of nowhere. Upon further reflection, I can't help but applaud Toriyama for how thoroughly, but still subtly, he set that up.

Now, applying this to Vegeta in the Tournament of Power, his importance indeed came relatively out of nowhere, given the amount of buildup they could have given him, but didn't. I'm not sure why his having a new daughter wouldn't instantly motivate him to go to this tournament to win. That said, Super as a whole has, again, been about Goku and Vegeta training under Whis. Vegeta not being important for the climax would be strange.

5. Things not being paid off- Where do I begin with this? The androids were built up to be this menacing threat and they weren't because Cell showed up. It devalues them because they were never properly defeated unlike say all of Freeza's army. The button we spent episodes upon episodes building got smashed at the last second. Tien's big moment is instantly destroyed because of Vegeta. Trunks was built up to be important but he also wasn't. Kamiccolo accomplishes nothing that impacts the story, he actually made it worse.

I agree with some of this, and disagree with some of this.

I think it was actually interesting to have the Cyborgs hyped up as the big threat to be defeated, only to be forced to team up with our heroes to stop Cell partway through. It's not like they were pure evil, or anything. #16 had already made it abundantly clear that he only intended to fight Goku, and seemed infatuated with nature. #17 and #18 even spared Krillin. God himself was somewhat apprehensive about powering Piccolo up just to kill them, since they hadn't even really done anything yet. Like Gohan's becoming the protagonist at the arc's climax, this one wasn't as completely out of nowhere as most seem to think. And, regardless of all else, them getting put to the side as the main antagonists of the arc made way for a fantastic, if brief, bit of mystery and horror for the series.

Vegeta is a complete asshole. That's the place in life he's at throughout this arc. Having him there adds a third party into the mix, and provides another layer of tension and drama, because Goku, the only member of the cast who could do anything about it, isn't around to keep him check. He particularly butts heads with Trunks throughout the arc, when Vegeta doesn't save Bulma, when Vegeta insists on letting Gero wake the cyborgs up, and most notably, when Vegeta allows Cell to continue pursuing #18. This serves to gradually take Vegeta off of the pedestal that Trunks saw Vegeta as sitting on.

And Trunks was absolutely important; the survival of the entire cast (sans Goku, ultimately) wouldn't have been possible without him. Moreover, the arc ultimately concludes with him returning to his future with new wisdom, strength, and intel from the past, allowing him to save his world. And regardless of that, if nothing else, he served to give the arc one hell of an unexpected and exciting opening.

Piccolo's fusion with Kami, Tenshinhan's Kikoho, and Krillin's destruction of the controller are all mixed bags for me. On one hand, the first two are amazing character moments. For Piccolo, it's the culmination of his entire character arc: from Demon Jr., to hesitant rival, to sacrificing himself to save his mortal enemy's son's life, to fusing with God himself. Tenshinhan's Kikoho is a rare showing of ingenuity from Tenshinhan in a story that largely doesn't care about such showings anymore, and it's an incredible breath of fresh air in an arc where the Saiyans and Piccolo seem to be doing all of the heavy lifting. Neither directly amount to anything: Cell gets attracted to the Cyborgs by Piccolo's fight, and Tenshinhan's gambit neither kills him nor allows #18 to escape. Piccolo's fusion, however, at least prompts the return of Dende, and the subsequent upgrading of the Earth's Dragon Ball's, so his fusion with Kami can't be said to amount to nothing. I won't defend Krillin's destruction of the controller. That's indeed really dumb and wasteful. In the long run, though? It pays off by setting up #18's integration with the rest of the cast, and directly contributes to Krillin becoming a family man.

6. Inconsistent characterization- Vegeta is the worst in the Cell saga. he went from being cunning on namek to the cause of multiple of problems in the Cell saga. Gohan's passiveness which did not prevent him from fighting Recome by himself when he was 5 yet he scared to fight Cell. Then there is him becoming an arrogant prick when he went 2 which has never ever ever been a thing about him not even when he went super saiyan. thats Goku's thing, speaking of, Goku was a huge hypocrite yelling at his son for not killing Cell as fast as possible when he has let he has let worse way worse go.

I think Vegeta's 100% in character here. He's never been good. He's only cooperated out of necessity. He's only kept around due to a combination of Goku still wanting a rematch with him, and nobody else really being in a position to do anything about it. I don't see how him causing problems is anything but expected. Like on Namek, it maintains him as a third party who can help or hinder, depending on the situation, and I think that leaves a bit of unexpectedness throughout, and I think that's a good thing. Freeza at the in the Tournament of Power is reminiscent of this.

Regarding the classic Gohan debate, I personally don't think he was out of character. However, I don't think Toriyama handled Gohan's inner conflict particularly gracefully. He's indeed always been very gung-ho about fighting. I'm sympathetic to the interpretation that as he gets older, he starts to become more conflicted about inflicting pain onto others. However, I think Toriyama should have done more to set this up. Another possibility I've just though of, was maybe Gohan was seeing the potential for Cell becoming good later on down the road, like Piccolo had. Perhaps Toriyama was intending to write Gohan, in this moment, the way Funimation tried to write Goku during the Saiyan arc? Regardless, even then, Toriyama could have done more to elucidate that.

I'm also sympathetic to the interpretation that Gohan was worried about having his full power unleashed through anger specifically while in the Super Saiyan state. However, once again, Toriyama should have done more to set this up. Him becoming an arrogant prick, I'm fine with. The Super Saiyan form, at least up to this point, was always supposed to heighten aggressive tendencies. On Namek, Goku behaves terribly inconsistently after becoming a Super Saiyan, and I've personally chalked that up to the state itself clouding his judgment.

I do think it's hypocritical of Goku to tell Gohan to stop messing around, when Goku is the king of messing around. I don't think it's terribly inconsistent with his character, though. He's finally in the shoes that everyone else has been for ages. It's actually rather amusing to me to see him forced onto the other side of that fence for once, and actually being worried like the rest of them. It's a nice little comeuppance for the character who has, up until this point, been our protagonist.

7. Lack of character usage- The Freeza saga is truly the last saga anyone other than the saiyans mattered. Krillin mattered just as much as Gohan did on Namek. The Cell saga, there is not one thing anyone truly does that matters, Tien's kikoho, Krillin getting the button, Yamcha is Yamcha'd, Piccolo is immediately fodderized after one good fight.

Dragon Ball has had a steadily growing cast since its onset. As it has gone on, it has only continued to grow. I think there's an inherent difficulty to making use of the entire cast when it becomes that large. As such, I don't think there's a particularly huge problem with only using some of the cast for each arc. Bulma isn't terribly useful during the tournament arcs, because it's an arc about the fighters and a tournament where they're fighting each other. Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu aren't very "useful" during the Saiyan arc, but their inability to make a dent in Nappa serves to showcase how overconfident everyone was going in, and how nightmarishly powerful these invaders truly arc.

Now, in the Cell arc, the non-Saiyan characters indeed aren't very useful in combat. And I think that's ultimately okay. It's a story about the Saiyan characters, in the end. The tension that results from keeping someone like Vegeta around on Earth, Trunks' chance to cultivate a relationship with his father, Gohan's long-awaited payoff as becoming their greatest asset in the end, and everyone's different methods for evolving the Super Saiyan state. Sometimes you have an arc for the fighters, sometimes you have an arc for the Saiyans. Neither of these ideas are good or bad in and of themselves, and I think in the case of having an arc for the Saiyans, Toriyama did a lot of interesting stuff with it.

And it's not like all of the non-Saiyans were twiddling their thumbs the whole time. The arc only happens to begin with because Bulma, a human, created a time machine. She creates the controller. She rebuilds #16 (who goes on to trigger Gohan's transformation). Yamcha serves to be the one to learn that the Androids can absorb their ki, and he's the one who safely transports Goku home after he's out of commission. Krillin, coward that he is, manages to stay conscious long enough to save everyone else with senzu after #17 and #18 defeat them soundly. Piccolo and Tenshinhan, their efforts not amounting to much directly, serve to further drive home the point that keeping someone like Vegeta around is horribly reckless.

And in the Buu arc, oh boy. Piccolo is the one to ultimately teach the boys fusion, and he serves as an absolutely wonderful character foil/mentor character to Gotenks. Tenshinhan comes in out of nowhere with a clutch save. And, the peoples' champ himself, Mr. Satan puts in some fucking work throughout the entire arc. Not only does he do the one thing that (almost; can't forget about Gohan) nobody ever thinks to do (just talk to the dude and ask him to stop), he also uses his unearned overblown fame and prestige to convince the Earthlings to donate enough genki to decisively wipe Buu out for good.

---

You say that these arcs laid the groundwork for the story developments in GT and Super, and yet everything before these arcs laid the groundwork for them. X being a weak followup on Y doesn't speak poorly for Y, it speaks poorly for X. If the Cell and Buu arcs are to be blamed for Super's ills, then you can't say that the Saiyan and Namek arcs aren't likewise to be blamed for the Cell and Buu arc's ills. And so on, backwards, until the very beginning of the series.

A common thread I'm seeing is that Super's anime, at least, seems to have copied certain developments that the Cell and Buu arcs brought, without paying any mind to the point that those developments had for the story. Dragon Ball was in a constant state of evolution. Something is important and sacred at one point in time, and it's trivial and constitutive of the status quo the next. Some characters are important here, and then they'll fall to the wayside later. We start with a small group of kids, and we end with large families and a vast network of friends and allies. One of the coolest things about Dragon Ball is that time always moved forward, and the natural consequences of that are seen in every arc.

Super's problem is that it is stagnant, safe, and familiar. It's not as ambitious, reckless, or explorative. It is in some ways, but it doesn't live and breathe it like Dragon Ball always did during the original run.

For all of these developments that Toriyama's story naturally evolved to, all of the cracks in their execution, I think, come down almost entirely to the guy having been working on the thing for too long. He was burnt out. He'd been doing it weekly for a long time. I don't think the kinds of stories he was telling, or even largely the way he told them, are really that bad. I do think that they're far and away the weakest of the manga's original run, but I think that's also besides the point.

Super's borked execution is a different problem entirely. Rather than coming from a single burnt out writer, it's been coming from a committee of people, most of whom don't really seem to understand the original story, how it was told, how its ever-forward momentum was impressive and admirable and interesting, and how the characters acted and grew and reacted to each other and the things happening around them. I think Toriyama ended his long sweeping epic in a fairly natural way. I don't think you can blame the way he handled his climax and conclusion for Super's production being a mess.

Its amazing, everything you just said from 1 to 4 can be used to defend the super anime and I don't think you even realize that.

1. Ok. Goku is dense and is a martial artist so it does make sense for him to ignore the advice of gods and start a multiversal tournament just to fight the best, right? Because that shit started threads all over the internet and on Youtube about how Goku is both a dumbass and an asshole now.

2. Ok. Caulifla and Kale achieving these forms so fast now, right? Because that crap started an even bigger divide than either Trunks or Vegeta forms in the fandom and we knew they were going to get that.

3. Ok. Toriyama made it up as he went along back then so he made it up as he went along right now.

4. Ok, Guys its been built up since the beginning of the entire series. Vegeta's relationship with Cabba and him choosing to attend his daughter's birth instead of the tournament was foreshadowing to the climax even though he didn't do much in the beginning of the arc like gohan.


I understand your view and i repesct them but my friend, these same points have been used to defend both Gt and Super.

[CriticalThinker]

While I've enjoyed the anime version of the ToP I will admit it does have some glaring issues. One being the writing and handling of the stamina. Granted I know Dragon Ball as a whole isn't know as being a master piece of literature but man oh man it's pretty bad in this arc. Other issue is how the whole stamina issue has been handled, like it was bad enough with Goku but now Vegeta and Freeza are getting affected by it. Part of the reason why I have more of a negative view of 126 is because Vegeta is going all out in 127, making the Toppo fight pointless. I'm guessing the manga will have similar issues as well but hopefully it fixes that stamina issue and better writing.

[Zephyr]

1. Ok. Goku is dense and is a martial artist so it does make sense for him to ignore the advice of gods and start a multiversal tournament just to fight the best, right? Because that shit started threads all over the internet and on Youtube about how Goku is both a dumbass and an asshole now.

Yes, Goku disregarding the advice of the gods and endangering literally everyone for the sake of an incredibly challenging fight is in line with his character. That the fandom throws collective fits about random things isn't terribly relevant.

2. Ok. Caulifla and Kale achieving these forms so fast now, right? Because that crap started an even bigger divide than either Trunks or Vegeta forms in the fandom and we knew they were going to get that.

Again, whatever "divide" happened isn't terribly relevant.

The Namek arc establishes the state as something of legend, and the Cell arc clarifies that it is merely difficult to acquire, elucidating why it had such a connotation in the first place. The Buu arc introduces the idea that there are some rare circumstances by which the form could be acquired with relative ease. It doesn't retroactively make the form out to be easy for anyone to acquire; it doesn't imply that Bardock and King Vegeta are idiots for not having acquired the form, because the fact still remains that, under normal circumstances, the form is difficult to acquire. And it certainly doesn't trivialize the struggles that Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks, and Gohan had to go through to acquire the form, I don't think; on the contrary, it is only through those intense struggles that a status quo in which the form's easy acquisition is possible has come to fruition. The privileges that Goten and Trunks possess vindicate the struggles that those four suffered.

This is the groundwork that was laid in the original series.

Super strays from this groundwork. Or, rather, makes use of it in rather puzzling and contrived ways. Goten, Trunks, Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale all acquire the form with relative ease, compared to the Cell arc quartet. The thing is, though, Goten and Trunks are introduced already having acquired an easy-for-them-to-acquire state. The Universe 6 trio are introduced as being much older than the two kids, and yet haven't already acquired this easy-for-them-to-acquire state. That's what doesn't make sense about their acquisition of the state: that it hadn't already happened.

This is one of the problems with Super's writing that isn't on the anime writers, but on contemporary Toriyama. Regardless, putting the blame for this on the Cell or Buu arcs doesn't really make any sense, given what the actual problem is.

3. Ok. Toriyama made it up as he went along back then so he made it up as he went along right now.

Once again, I'm confused by the precise nature of the concern here, so I don't really know how to address it. This doesn't explain the issues with the time travel, or what bearing these unexplained issues have on Super's writing.

4. Ok, Guys its been built up since the beginning of the entire series. Vegeta's relationship with Cabba and him choosing to attend his daughter's birth instead of the tournament was foreshadowing to the climax even though he didn't do much in the beginning of the arc like gohan.

I can't tell if this is meant to be condescending or not, or if you even understood my points.

Vegeta's role in the finale of the series was just about a foregone conclusion. The writing did not set this up at the beginning of the arc, which they should (and could) have, and this (I agree) is a writing problem.

Gohan eventually playing an incredibly big role was foreshadowed at the beginning of the Saiyan arc, the same way that Vegeta's big role at the end of this "Beerus and Whis" macro-arc was. Gohan playing a big role in the Cell arc's climax in particular was foreshadowed starting around the arc's midpoint. Vegeta's playing a big role in the Tournament of Power's climax wasn't foreshadowed in the same way (in the anime; in the manga, it certainly was).

Where the Cell arc succeeded, Super's anime drops the ball.

[Totamo]

1. Ok. Goku is dense and is a martial artist so it does make sense for him to ignore the advice of gods and start a multiversal tournament just to fight the best, right? Because that shit started threads all over the internet and on Youtube about how Goku is both a dumbass and an asshole now.

Yes, Goku disregarding the advice of the gods and endangering literally everyone for the sake of an incredibly challenging fight is in line with his character. That the fandom throws collective fits about random things isn't terribly relevant.

2. Ok. Caulifla and Kale achieving these forms so fast now, right? Because that crap started an even bigger divide than either Trunks or Vegeta forms in the fandom and we knew they were going to get that.

Again, whatever "divide" happened isn't terribly relevant.

The Namek arc establishes the state as something of legend, and the Cell arc clarifies that it is merely difficult to acquire, elucidating why it had such a connotation in the first place. The Buu arc introduces the idea that there are some rare circumstances by which the form could be acquired with relative ease. It doesn't retroactively make the form out to be easy for anyone to acquire; it doesn't imply that Bardock and King Vegeta are idiots for not having acquired the form, because the fact still remains that, under normal circumstances, the form is difficult to acquire. And it certainly doesn't trivialize the struggles that Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks, and Gohan had to go through to acquire the form, I don't think; on the contrary, it is only through those intense struggles that a status quo in which the form's easy acquisition is possible has come to fruition. The privileges that Goten and Trunks possess vindicate the struggles that those four suffered.

This is the groundwork that was laid in the original series.

Super strays from this groundwork. Or, rather, makes use of it in rather puzzling and contrived ways. Goten, Trunks, Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale all acquire the form with relative ease, compared to the Cell arc quartet. The thing is, though, Goten and Trunks are introduced already having acquired an easy-for-them-to-acquire state. The Universe 6 trio are introduced as being much older than the two kids, and yet haven't already acquired this easy-for-them-to-acquire state. That's what doesn't make sense about their acquisition of the state: that it hadn't already happened.

This is one of the problems with Super's writing that isn't on the anime writers, but on contemporary Toriyama. Regardless, putting the blame for this on the Cell or Buu arcs doesn't really make any sense, given what the actual problem is.

3. Ok. Toriyama made it up as he went along back then so he made it up as he went along right now.

Once again, I'm confused by the precise nature of the concern here, so I don't really know how to address it. This doesn't explain the issues with the time travel, or what bearing these unexplained issues have on Super's writing.

4. Ok, Guys its been built up since the beginning of the entire series. Vegeta's relationship with Cabba and him choosing to attend his daughter's birth instead of the tournament was foreshadowing to the climax even though he didn't do much in the beginning of the arc like gohan.

I can't tell if this is meant to be condescending or not, or if you even understood my points.

Vegeta's role in the finale of the series was just about a foregone conclusion. The writing did not set this up at the beginning of the arc, which they should (and could) have, and this (I agree) is a writing problem.

Gohan eventually playing an incredibly big role was foreshadowed at the beginning of the Saiyan arc, the same way that Vegeta's big role at the end of this "Beerus and Whis" macro-arc was. Gohan playing a big role in the Cell arc's climax in particular was foreshadowed starting around the arc's midpoint. Vegeta's playing a big role in the Tournament of Power's climax wasn't foreshadowed in the same way (in the anime; in the manga, it certainly was).

Where the Cell arc succeeded, Super's anime drops the ball.

1. Most of the idiotic thing Goku has done in Super were because of his love for fighting. Thats why people hate it, they call him a fight junkie.

2.The cell saga devalued it by making it achievable through training. Thats the point, my friend. If anyone can achieve this form if they tried, why was it legendary in the first place? Plus in the manga Vegeta, trunks and gohan receive this legendary form offsceen.

3. The structure of time travel was changed, and the more it was explained the less sense it made, this is what happened when cell showed up, he opened his mouth, piccolo opened his and it never made sense again.

4.If Gohan going in the chamber with Goku is forehadowing, then why didn't vegeta and trunks achieve anything? Why is Gohan fighting an enemy that has nothing to do with him? Cell was made to kill Goku. Do you see what I mean? It made no sense narrative for Gohan to beat Cell, when Cell didn't care about him.

[Saturnine]

The only thing they learned from GT was fan service .

And not shamelessly promoting the stuff of their own making like Z filler and the theatrical movies. And not shitting on stuff explicitly established in canon such as only chosen people getting to keep their bodies after death etc etc etc

[kemuri07]

And not shamelessly promoting the stuff of their own making like Z filler and the theatrical movies. And not shitting on stuff explicitly established in canon such as only chosen people getting to keep their bodies after death etc etc etc

Dude, this whole obsession people have with canon can, quite frankly, eat a bowl of dicks. Toriyama has said in multiple of occasions that he basically pulls shit out of his ass. The difference between Toriyama's own work and Super is, well, Toriyama is a fairly decent mangaka that has an eye for story-telling. Who cares if he forgot something he made up years ago?

If Gohan going in the chamber with Goku is forehadowing, then why didn't vegeta and trunks achieve anything? Why is Gohan fighting an enemy that has nothing to do with him? Cell was made to kill Goku. Do you see what I mean? It made no sense narrative for Gohan to beat Cell, when Cell didn't care about him.

Dude. It really seems like you're simply cherry picking aspects of Z that fits with your argument. What Zephyr is trying to say is that Gohan has always been touted as potentially being the strongest being alive due to his Saiyan-Earthling heritage. Yes, stronger than Goku and Vegeta. We've seen that power multiple times throughout the series as he's able to take on fighters far stronger than he is because of his emotions. That comes to ahead during the cell-saga with the death of Android 16 and effectively becomes the strongest in the universe.

Basically, DBZ always intended to have Gohan replace Goku as the main character. Course, things didn't work out that way.

[Totamo]

And not shamelessly promoting the stuff of their own making like Z filler and the theatrical movies. And not shitting on stuff explicitly established in canon such as only chosen people getting to keep their bodies after death etc etc etc

Dude, this whole obsession people have with canon can, quite frankly, eat a bowl of dicks. Toriyama has said in multiple of occasions that he basically pulls shit out of his ass. The difference between Toriyama's own work and Super is, well, Toriyama is a fairly decent mangaka that has an eye for story-telling. Who cares if he forgot something he made up years ago?

If Gohan going in the chamber with Goku is forehadowing, then why didn't vegeta and trunks achieve anything? Why is Gohan fighting an enemy that has nothing to do with him? Cell was made to kill Goku. Do you see what I mean? It made no sense narrative for Gohan to beat Cell, when Cell didn't care about him.

Dude. It really seems like you're simply cherry picking aspects of Z that fits with your argument. What Zephyr is trying to say is that Gohan has always been touted as potentially being the strongest being alive due to his Saiyan-Earthling heritage. Yes, stronger than Goku and Vegeta. We've seen that power multiple times throughout the series as he's able to take on fighters far stronger than he is because of his emotions. That comes to ahead during the cell-saga with the death of Android 16 and effectively becomes the strongest in the universe.

Basically, DBZ always intended to have Gohan replace Goku as the main character. Course, things didn't work out that way.

You are missing my point entirely. Even if Gohan was built up to surpass Goku, why was the Cell saga chosen to do it when he was missing half the arc and the main villain didn't care about him. Trunks would have made more sense here since he is exactly like Gohan and He actually cared about stopping Cell. Gohan never even would have fought Cell if Goku told him no and he still needs his help in the end, anyway.

[Zephyr]

1. Most of the idiotic thing Goku has done in Super were because of his love for fighting. Thats why people hate it, they call him a fight junkie.

2.The cell saga devalued it by making it achievable through training. Thats the point, my friend. If anyone can achieve this form if they tried, why was it legendary in the first place? Plus in the manga Vegeta, trunks and gohan receive this legendary form offsceen.

3. The structure of time travel was changed, and the more it was explained the less sense it made, this is what happened when cell showed up, he opened his mouth, piccolo opened his and it never made sense again.

4.If Gohan going in the chamber with Goku is forehadowing, then why didn't vegeta and trunks achieve anything? Why is Gohan fighting an enemy that has nothing to do with him? Cell was made to kill Goku. Do you see what I mean? It made no sense narrative for Gohan to beat Cell, when Cell didn't care about him.

On a scene-to-scene basis, Goku in Super has been written to be a lot more childish and idiotic in general, than he had ever been during the original run since at least becoming an adult, which is what I was referring to. That he's a reckless fighting junkie is a major part of his character. See: letting Piccolo go, letting Vegeta go, letting Freeza go, letting the cyborgs get created, fighting Vegeta immediately rather than waiting while trying to prevent Buu's release, fighting Pure Buu rather than having more powerful fighters take him out with ease.

It was legendary in the first place because simple "training" isn't enough. A Saiyan needed the opportunity to raise their battle power significantly, which required surviving a lot of near-death experiences and assistance from mystical and high-tech resources, such as senzu, Dragon Clan Namekians, gravity chambers, time-warping training rooms, etc. That they acquired them off-screen doesn't matter. Moreover, we do in fact see the panel in which Gohan acquires the form. Again, this is punctuated by Cell becoming perfect, who does so literally on the next page. The problem with how the Universe 6 trio had somehow yet to know about the state has nothing to do with this.

How did the structure change? How did it cease to make sense? The only real complications involve Cell's insistence that they somehow could have added Trunks' DNA and Piccolo's speculation that Trunks for whatever reason wanted to brag about having defeated the Cyborgs to a version of everyone who had yet to hear the warning. All things considered, again, I think the overall structure of the time travel mechanism holds up quite well, with these two lines being easily dismissed as mistaken on Cell and Piccolo's parts, and by extension, Toriyama's part (or, if you like, Cell could have been referring to baby Trunks). That's what I meant: he was adding stuff to the time travel system as the story went on, and these are really the only glaring mistakes, and I think they're rather small. That's impressive. It also still has absolutely nothing to do with Super, as far as I can tell.

Sometimes characters fail. Sometimes characters fight unexpected foes. Setting things up is important, but doing everything in the 100% most obvious way possible would be boring. The point is that when Toriyama was subverting expectations he largely did it with grace and tact, still setting things up, but doing it subtly. You didn't expect Gohan to usurp Goku during an arc that started out as a revenge story against Goku, but it happened, and it was set up nicely partway through the arc, and it was in service of capping off character arcs for both of them. Likewise, we didn't expect Goku to take the mantle back in an arc that started as Gohan's, but it was likewise in service of another character arc for Goku, that served to brilliantly cap off entire series. Super's episode-to-episode writing subverts expectations in a less enjoyable way. Like, I didn't expect Freeza to get back up, just to be knocked out again. Or, I didn't expect the Tournament of Power to drag on unnecessarily for so long that they're likely going to have to rush the ending.

It's fine to dislike certain story developments. It's fine to think a lot of the original manga's story developments toward the end weren't the best or most logical route to go down. But I don't see how you can deny that they weren't, for the most part, in service of the greater narrative, or that they weren't pulled off with relative finesse. Moreover, comparing these developments with Super's writing ills, which, rather than the broad story developments (which I think are for the most part no worse than anything in the original run, and are actually quite cool and interesting and worthwhile), largely come down to basic moment-to-moment and episode-to-episode lack of cohesion, suspension-of-disbelief-shattering pacing, and pointless fluffy meandering, none of which exists in service of the larger story developments, seems puzzlingly backwards.

The Cell and Buu arcs had questionable story developments that were executed pretty well. Super has arguably less-questionable story developments (for the most part), which are executed like trash. That's why the comparison is odd. Super isn't following the groundwork laid by the Cell and Buu arcs, it's doing the exact opposite.