Old Broly vs Super Vegetto

[theherodjl]

Here's how the list might look according to Koyama then.

Base Goku(M8): 10
SSJ Goku: 500
SSJ Goku with everyone's donated Ki: 2,000(enough to punch a hole in Broly's gut)

Base Goku(Boo arc, M10-13): 30
SSJ Goku: 1,500
SSJ2 Goku: 3,000(stronger than when he pierced Broly's belly)
SSJ3 Goku: 12,000(several-fold the power of his M8 self with everyone's Ki)

Pure Boo: 10,000
Super Boo: 30,000
Bootenks/Hirudegarn: 60,000
Boohan/Janemba: 70,000
Base Vegetto: 80,000
Super Vegetto: 4,000,000

LSSJ Broly(M8,10,11): 4,000,000+

...Whatever. Its his movie. if Tommy Wiseau can just go back & pretend that all of the terrible scenes of his awful movie were intentional as part of his alleged film-making style then I suppose Koyama can do the same.

[sintzu]

He pretty much admitted he couldn’t come up with an oponnent stronger.

What about Janemba and Herodigaurn (or however you spell his name) ? The only argument you can make is with Bojack and even that's debatable. That's of course not counting all the Buu arc characters and what we saw in the Cell games. Like I said, he can say what he wants but it's not worth anything if what we're shown goes against it.

[Sora Saiyan]

He pretty much admitted he couldn’t come up with an oponnent stronger.

What about Janemba and Herodigaurn (or however you spell his name) ? The only argument you can make is with Bojack and even that's debatable. That's of course not counting all the Buu arc characters and what we saw in the Cell games. Like I said, he can say what he wants but it's not worth anything if what we're shown goes against it.

He mentions he fell in a rut and had Broly appear three times, but Bojack was the only one that appeared around then. So judging by the tense used that means Broly > Bojack and any other characters he could come up with around the time of the Broly movies that didn’t make it to the movies. Though didn’t Koyama write “Plan to eradicate the saiyans” which has a direct comparison to Broly, which goes further one step further and mentions that Hatchyack could be stronger.

Like I’ve said before, rusty SSJ2 Gohan could overpower Brolys hold on him, which I could guarantee would be impossible against a character at the caliber of SSJ3 Goku who would be like 6x stronger than that Gohan, and let’s not include Vegetto who in the anime would be like 100s-1000s of times stronger than rusty Gohan. It would be like a developed adult having a baby in a hold and the baby overpowering the adult.

RandomGuy96, and myself already pointed out that Goku said he could deal with Broly in hell in movie 12, which adds further weight to my clarification at the top of this post about the timescale he was talking about when stating he couldn’t think of characters that could surpass Broly.

[sintzu]

Didn’t Koyama write “Plan to eradicate the saiyans” which has a direct comparison to Broly, which goes further one step further and mentions that Hatchyack could be stronger.

According to Wikipedia he did.

[VegettoEX]

According to Wikipedia he did.

According to Nobuyuki Tanaka in the 30th anniversary "Super History Book", according to us .

[Hugo Boss]

What a member of the staff says doesn't actually matter unless it's on the page/screen. Not even a little bit. If the writer wanted to convey that, perhaps he should have shown such a thing on-screen, instead of having Gohan, Goten, and Trunks obliterate Broly, followed by Goku casually remarking that he could handle Broly in Hell.

His word is the source, not the other way around. I have no problem in admitting I thought Hirudegarn and Janemba were stronger than Broly before Koyama told that in 2006 and reiterated in 2013, based on my own preconceptions about what happened on-screen. If my perception was different from what he had in mind, that’s not anyone’s fault. Though, if I remember correctly Trunks stopped Broly from crushing Gohan and Goten, giving them an opening to push Broly to the sun and obliterate him. And it’s debatable if Goku contributed or not to that kamehameha. Not that it matters anyway.

If Toriyama does an interview 3 months from now in which he claims Namek Saga Goku could defeat BoG Beerus, are we now going to pretend like that is true?

If Toriyama is given free reign on the franchise, he can overwrite the rules he created, like he did with Potara and numerous times with the Kaioshins. We can question how good/bad is the idea, but not question the source.

What about Janemba and Herodigaurn (or however you spell his name) ? The only argument you can make is with Bojack and even that's debatable. That's of course not counting all the Buu arc characters and what we saw in the Cell games. Like I said, he can say what he wants but it's not worth anything if what we're shown goes against it.

Koyama doesn’t specify any time reference, his statement is directed at all the Z opponents Goku faced until Beerus showed up. Naturally that includes Janemba and Hirudegarn, as bad as it sounds. Heck, it’s possible that Toriyama is writing Broly as an opponent even stronger than a God of Destruction.

Though didn’t Koyama write “Plan to eradicate the saiyans” which has a direct comparison to Broly, which goes further one step further and mentions that Hatchyack could be stronger.

That’s right, he wrote it with that line in it. But the remake doesn’t have that line anymore. Seems like they removed it.

[sintzu]

Koyama doesn’t specify any time reference, his statement is directed at all the Z opponents Goku faced until Beerus showed up. Naturally that includes Janemba and Hirudegarn, as bad as it sounds.

It's very bad because of how false it is. He wasn't stronger than perfect Cell (before and after Goku's death), he wasn't stronger than any of the Buus and he wasn't stronger than Janemba and Hirudegarn. If he's taking GT into account then you can add Baby, Super 17 and any shadow dragon it took Ssj4 to beat.

Heck, it’s possible that Toriyama is writing Broly as an opponent even stronger than a God of Destruction.

That's completely fine because Toriyama is rebuilding him from the ground up. What wouldn't make sense would be for him to bring the current Broly back to life and out of nowhere have him go up against Blue Goku and Vegeta...then again, he did that with Freeza who was even weaker than the Broly we're talking about so I guess he could've if he wanted to but thankfully he's not.

[Hugo Boss]

It's very bad because of how false it is. He wasn't stronger than perfect Cell (before and after Goku's death), he wasn't stronger than any of the Buus and he wasn't stronger than Janemba and Hirudegarn. If he's taking GT into account then you can add Baby, Super 17 and any shadow dragon it took Ssj4 to beat.

I don’t think he is including Dragon Ball GT, since that’s Aya Matsui’s field. For further knowledge, read this thread.

[RandomGuy96]

His word is the source, not the other way around.

His opinion is nothing more than that, his opinion. Unless it is actually on page or on screen, it has no relevance. If he said that Broly's skin is purple, that wouldn't retroactively make it so.

It's also worth mentioning that Hatchiyak is outright stated to be stronger than Broly, at least Movie 8 Broly, and the Cell Games cast handled him without too much trouble.

[Hugo Boss]

His word is the source, not the other way around.

His opinion is nothing more than that, his opinion. Unless it is actually on page or on screen, it has no relevance. If he said that Broly's skin is purple, that wouldn't retroactively make it so.

It's also worth mentioning that Hatchiyak is outright stated to be stronger than Broly, at least Movie 8 Broly, and the Cell Games cast handled him without too much trouble.

Koyama can retroactively decide whatever he wants about the characters he created, because he wrote them. Is it bad? I think it is. But it is as official as it can be. If he says Garlick Jr. is stronger than Broly, we have to take his word for it. “Hatchiyack stronger than Broly” line was written by Koyama himself and look at what he did. Lores can be easily altered, Dragon Ball is not exception.

[RandomGuy96]

His word is the source, not the other way around.

His opinion is nothing more than that, his opinion. Unless it is actually on page or on screen, it has no relevance. If he said that Broly's skin is purple, that wouldn't retroactively make it so.

It's also worth mentioning that Hatchiyak is outright stated to be stronger than Broly, at least Movie 8 Broly, and the Cell Games cast handled him without too much trouble.

Koyama can retroactively decide whatever he wants about the characters he created, because he wrote them.

No, he can't. It doesn't retroactively change anything written in the movies themselves. Out of Universe commentary mattering or even overriding the original work is just something certain fans have arbitrarily decided to follow. It's not an actual "rule" of film or literature.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Have you guys watched SeththeProgrammers 3 videos. These are recent. Watch these real quick.

https://youtu.be/qaMbgpKf5KU

https://youtu.be/8NqfSj5Weh4

https://youtu.be/6J7xc5wfYm0

[Polyphase Avatron]

Have you guys watched SeththeProgrammers 3 videos. These are recent. Watch these real quick.

https://youtu.be/qaMbgpKf5KU

https://youtu.be/8NqfSj5Weh4

https://youtu.be/6J7xc5wfYm0

I don't put much stock in that guy. He makes a lot of mistakes in his videos.

[Hugo Boss]

Out of Universe commentary mattering or even overriding the original work is just something certain fans have arbitrarily decided to follow. It's not an actual "rule" of film or literature.

Did you arbitrarily decided not to take the author’s words but your own different perspective about his work? I seriously don’t understand this way of thinking.

Toriyama himself rewrote Planet Vegeta’s last moments several times (a giant meteor crash, Freeza’s scheme to eliminate the threat of Super Saiyan, Beerus’ order). Who knows what he will depict in this new movie. If he can do that with an important moment of the story, he can do it with a silly detail like strength levels.

If by Koyama’s own admission, after what he claimed to be a “hard work”, he couldn’t write someone stronger than Broly and we know he wrote Hirudegarn and Janemba, so logically what the characters told or accomplished in the original work can be interpreted on favor of this reveal. That’s called creative freedom.

[RandomGuy96]

Out of Universe commentary mattering or even overriding the original work is just something certain fans have arbitrarily decided to follow. It's not an actual "rule" of film or literature.

Did you arbitrarily decided not to take the author’s words but your own different perspective about his work?

I didn't "decide" anything. If it's not in the work, it has no impact on the work. This is entirely self-explanatory.

It is you, and the fandom at large, making the arbitrary decisions that offhand comments made in interviews override what the work actually shows. It makes no sense and has no academic or logical basis.

Toriyama himself rewrote Planet Vegeta’s last moments several times (a giant meteor crash, Freeza’s scheme to eliminate the threat of Super Saiyan, Beerus’ order). Who knows what he will depict in this new movie. If he can do that with an important moment of the story, he can do it with a silly detail like strength levels.

No, he actually can't. He rewrote the meteor explanation because he actually changed the work itself to include it. If he said 30 years later that Beerus actually destroyed Planet Vegeta then it wouldn't mean that Beerus actually did, since we would still see Freeza doing it in the work itself. If he said that Tenshinhan had a full head of hair, it wouldn't make it so.

[Green_Goblin]

In DBZ Movie 8: SSJ Goku + CELL SAGA POWER LEVELS OF: Vegeta, Trunks, Gohan and Piccolo > LSSJ Broly
In DBZ Movie 10: SSJ Gohan (weaker than Mystic Gohan who's ~> BUU SAGA SSJ 3 Goku) + SSJ Goten + SSJ Goku in spirit (not really there) + aid from SSJ Kid Trunks > LSSJ Broly
In DBZ Movie 11: SSJ Kid Trunks + SSJ Goten + Krillin [ALL aided by the effect of water against his stryucture] > Bio-Broly

Super Vegetto >>>>> Super Buu (Mystic Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed) >>>> SSJ3 Goku >>> LSSJ Broly

[Hugo Boss]

I didn't "decide" anything. If it's not in the work, it has no impact on the work.

The moment you disregard the writer’s word about what he did in his work, you are making a decision.

It is you, and the fandom at large, making the arbitrary decisions that offhand comments made in interviews override what the work actually shows. It makes no sense and has no academic or logical basis.

Are you not taking this more seriously than it should be? Koyama is just providing supplementary information about his work and what he could envision to the movies. So, when watching them, it’s possible to the viewer to interpret some instances on his light. In another hand, he doesn’t even think the stories he wrote have a villain stronger than Broly. So, there is nothing to override in this case.

If he said 30 years later that Beerus actually destroyed Planet Vegeta then it wouldn't mean that Beerus actually did, since we would still see Freeza doing it in the work itself.

This is not really the implication I want you to have about what I’m saying. For clarification purpose, after a little research, I checked that, in the movie, Beerus says in a vague way he wanted to destroy Planet Vegeta himself, but Freeza saved him the trouble to go there. In the anime, it’s actually revealed that Beerus asked Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta while he slept.

For reference,
[spoiler]Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods (Extended cut)
- Beerus: Oh, yeah? I could have given the folks on that planet an eternity, but they'd still be nothing but trouble. And that King Vegeta was especially hard-fisted. I would have been happy to destroy them, too, but their world is so far away, you know? It was too much trouble. I have to admit, though, Freeza is a bad apple, too. He's so self-important. The next time I see him, I think I might destroy him, too.

Dragon Ball Super - Episode 3
- Beerus: Hmm? But didn’t Freeza destroy Planet Vegeta, where the Saiyans were?
- Whis: Yes, it was you who asked him to do that while you were sleeping, wasn’t it?
- Beerus: Well, they pissed me off. Particularly that King Vegeta guy.[/spoiler]

In resume, couldn’t Toriyama say in a interview Beerus ordered Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta before Dragon Ball Super came to air? It wouldn’t necessarily contradict what he did in the movie. But the movie version allows us to interpret that Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta without any inquires from Beerus.

There are another controversial expanded lores like Kaioshins’ numbers and lifespan, Majin Boo’s origin, Mr. Satan’s backstory, or the recent S-Cells stuff. But this should be saved for another discussion.

[sintzu]

I didn't "decide" anything. If it's not in the work, it has no impact on the work.

The moment you disregard the writer’s word about what he did in his work, you are making a decision.

The issue isn't us disregarding the writer's word but rather the writer disregarding his own work and saying things that completely go against it. What we were shown in Broly's last appearance was him losing against a weakened Gohan (compared to his Cell games self) and Goten. Broly cannot be the strongest if he's weaker than characters who themselves at the time were weaker than a good amount of characters. Ssj3 Goku and Majin Buu for example were stronger than the version of Gohan who beat him so how does that result in Broly being the strongest ? If Gohan was weaker than Goku, how is Broly who was defeated by Gohan stronger than Goku ? If he said something like "Although Broly was defeated, had he lived he would've become the strongest character cause his power doesn't stop rising" or something like that cause it doesn't go against what we saw on screen.

Now let's look at a statement by Toriyama from back in 2014 when he decided to change Buu's origin. "Though in the manga Kaiōshin said that Bibbidi made him, the truth is, “Boo” was not actually created by Bididi, but has existed since time immemorial. He cycled between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent. Bibbidi merely knew the means of calling Boo from out of his long slumber". Unlike Koyama, Toriyama acknowledges the original material so what he's doing here is trying to explain and add to Buu, not go against what was previously established. Another example which you bring up is Planet Vegeta which like Buu, the changes made didn't go against what we had previously seen but instead add to it. We were first told that it was destroyed by a natural accident but later that accident was nothing but a cover up to keep Vegeta on a leash. Unlike Koyama, Toriyama didn't pretend or forget about the meteor but instead used that as a plot point to help strengthen the overall story. Years later in RF, we found out that Freeza needed Beerus' OK to destroy it which again, adds to the story cause now Beerus seems to have had some motivation for wanting it destroyed which could be brought up in the new movie. A 3rd example is the Potara. When Gowasu told Goku the fusion was temporary, the writers took the time to explain why it wasn't permanent and how it ties back to what we were told in the Buu arc, they didn't just pretend that it being temporary was always the case.

These are the differences between good and lazy storytelling. One author takes the time to look back at his work to tie everything together while the other just makes meaningless statements that don't line up at all with what's established.

[RandomGuy96]

I didn't "decide" anything. If it's not in the work, it has no impact on the work.

The moment you disregard the writer’s word about what he did in his work, you are making a decision.

No, you're not. You're simply viewing the original work and taking it at face value. That's like saying you're "making a decision" by not considering your friend's offhand speculation as "canon." If it's not in the work, it doesn't matter to it, particularly if it contradicts it. Period.

Are you not taking this more seriously than it should be?

I'm being pretty lackadaisical about it. You're the one who felt the need to twist the simple and self-explanatory stories in order to fit in things that aren't part of said stories. I don't think "taking the movie at face value" is being serious or overcomplicated.

Koyama is just providing supplementary information about his work and what he could envision to the movies.

No. He doesn't have the right to "provide information." What he says in interviews is no more worthy of consideration than what I say. Because it's not in the movie. Koyama has even less of a right to do this than, say, Toriyama, because unlike Toriyama's more or less one-man show, the Broly movies involved dozens if not hundreds of people working on them (including directors) and adding their own bits.

This is not really the implication I want you to have about what I’m saying. For clarification purpose, after a little research, I checked that, in the movie, Beerus says in a vague way he wanted to destroy Planet Vegeta himself, but Freeza saved him the trouble to go there. In the anime, it’s actually revealed that Beerus asked Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta while he slept.

For reference,
In resume, couldn’t Toriyama say in a interview Beerus ordered Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta before Dragon Ball Super came to air? It wouldn’t necessarily contradict what he did in the movie. But the movie version allows us to interpret that Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta without any inquires from Beerus.

He could. But that doesn't make it so, unless his comments materialize on the pages of the manga. Similarly, there were still five Kaioshins and Boo was still created by Bibidi regardless of what Toriyama says offhandedly in interviews 20+ years later. His comments don't retroactively change what is written there.

[Rakurai]

If Koyama created the film characters, and he says Broly is the strongest out of all of them, his word is the Word of God in film continuity as much as Toriyama's is the Word of God with anything related to the manga.