Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
ricky84 wrote:1. I never said a thing about the dub, you are putting words in my mouth bro.
2. You are actually wrong about DB's moon bro lmao. According to Toriyama himself, DB's moon is actually even further away from the Earth than it is in real life, not closer. Being 380,000 miles away instead of 200,000 like in real life. http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/alo ... anBn/?ref=
That debunks your poor attempt at downplay. Using inconsistent images of the Earth's distance to the moon to make your point doesn't work either.
Also, saying Dyspo is the first FTL character because of his transformation being called "Super Light Speed Mode" (which is actually a mistranslation according to Herms98) is an example of the Naming Fallacy. I could just as easily say Tien in the 22th Tenkaiichi is was the FTL character because he had an attack called Light Speed Fist, or that Android Saga Vegeta was the first universe buster because of his Big Bang Attack.
1. Never said that you in particular said anything about the dub, bro.
2. Objection! He said it was 300,000 kilometers away, not miles. He also drew the moon as being a few thousand miles away in this very same scene he is talking about so either he looked up the distance of the moon in a physics book then completely forgot about it afterwards, or he simply doesn't know what 300,000 kilometers from the Earth to the moon looks like. I'm willing to bet its the former since he has an awful memory.
"Debunks"??? All of the examples I listed are consistent with neither Toei or Bandai depicting the distance as massively different from Toriyama's art, just handwaving that away because it doesn't fit your narrative doesn't mean that it's inconsistent or false, and shouldn't be taken into account.
I'm not arguing that because Dyspo has a move that specifically labels lightspeed then that means he only is lightspeed with just that technique, I'm just going by the general fact that Dyspo is stated to be faster than light by Marcarita. Dyspo probably doesn't need the technique to be FTL, but its worth noting that he may not be massively FTL without it.
1. 380,000 kilometers equals 236,121.053 miles. So that's still further away than in real life, so you are still wrong.
2. Again, Tien in the 22th had a technique literally named Light Speed Fist, so your Dyspo argument doesn't hold.
3. So you are going to ignore all previous feats, scaling and statements just for some misconstrued line about Dyspo? Also, Suppressed Beerus (who traveled several galaxies in 2 mintues) didn't reveal any more power in the BoG arc than SSG Goku. So by scaling anyone equal or better than BoG Goku has to have a travel speed at least millions of times FTL.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
CTAkuma wrote:Because its a gimmick they went ahead and gave to make him unique, also that's not the name, it's called "highest speed mode". Even if the naming convention says that i guess that makes "Big Bang Attack" an Universal attack from Android saga Vegeta
I guess that means every character was just a planet buster through DBZ since scaling does not exist.
Not a good comparison since Vegeta never claimed that the attack induced a big bang, but that it was just a powerful move. Dyspo's technique on the other hand can be taken literally since he is actually confirmed to be FTL already. You're comparing a hyperbole to a confirmation.
What now? Various characters stated that they could planet bust, and it was shown that they could. Meanwhile, we have only one character stated to be of a specific level of speed besides just "fast".
No because they scale off of Cell's Solar system statement, again the technnique is not called "Light Speed mode" so this is a association and naming fallacy. Raditz dodging said Special beam canon is on Relativistic to FTL speeds, implying they only reached it in the ToP is hyperbole and downplay
ricky84 wrote:1. 380,000 kilometers equals 236,121.053 miles. So that's still further away than in real life, so you are still wrong.
2. Again, Tien in the 22th had a technique literally named Light Speed Fist, so your Dyspo argument doesn't hold.
3. So you are going to ignore all previous feats, scaling and statements just for some misconstrued line about Dyspo? Also, Suppressed Beerus (who traveled several galaxies in 2 mintues) didn't reveal any more power in the BoG arc than SSG Goku. So by scaling anyone equal or better than BoG Goku has to have a travel speed at least millions of times FTL.
1. The moon in real life is up to 250,000 miles from the Earth at it's furthest so it's not.
2. Its actually "Fist of the sun" IIRC, and just because you want to believe hyperbole can be construed with literal statements doesn't make my argument wrong.
3. What feats, scalings, and statements are you talking about??? I never said anything about characters weaker therefore slower than Dyspo being invalid, but that the level of Dyspo is where lightspeed/FTL speed begins. You're the one who began it with Raditz being FTL somehow.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter
CTAkuma wrote:No because they scale off of Cell's Solar system statement, again the technnique is not called "Light Speed mode" so this is a association and naming fallacy. Raditz dodging said Special beam canon is on Relativistic to FTL speeds, implying they only reached it in the ToP is hyperbole and downplay
No, its hyperbole for the characters to have FTL speed when they were never stated to. Dyspo was stated to be FTL while everyone short of his level is not, just because the name also includes the term "lightspeed" doesn't purely mean that its just being hyperbole when there is actual weight to it.
See my above post for why Piccolo's Makankosappo isn't FTL based on Toriyama's & everyone else's depiction of the moon's distance from Earth.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter
ricky84 wrote:1. 380,000 kilometers equals 236,121.053 miles. So that's still further away than in real life, so you are still wrong.
2. Again, Tien in the 22th had a technique literally named Light Speed Fist, so your Dyspo argument doesn't hold.
3. So you are going to ignore all previous feats, scaling and statements just for some misconstrued line about Dyspo? Also, Suppressed Beerus (who traveled several galaxies in 2 mintues) didn't reveal any more power in the BoG arc than SSG Goku. So by scaling anyone equal or better than BoG Goku has to have a travel speed at least millions of times FTL.
1. The moon in real life is up to 250,000 miles from the Earth at it's furthest so it's not.
2. Its actually "Fist of the sun" IIRC, and just because you want to believe hyperbole can be construed with literal statements doesn't make my argument wrong.
3. What feats, scalings, and statements are you talking about??? I never said anything about characters weaker therefore slower than Dyspo being invalid, but that the level of Dyspo is where lightspeed/FTL speed begins. You're the one who began it with Raditz being FTL somehow.
Headcanon the post. First of all the DB universe and its planets aren't 1:1 the same to ours secondly Piccolo vaporizing the moon in an instant with a regular ki blast and Raditz who is way stronger than him dodging his special beam canon is on FTL to Relativistic speeds, Power=Speed and Durability meaning everyone who scales of off him should be way faster and so on, they have have reached FTL atleast in the Frieza saga with Super Saiyan being a 50x multiplier.
o, its hyperbole for the characters to have FTL speed when they were never stated to. Dyspo was stated to be FTL while everyone short of his level is not, just because the name also includes the term "lightspeed" doesn't purely mean that its just being hyperbole when there is actual weight to it.
See my above post for why Piccolo's Makankosappo isn't FTL based on Toriyama's & everyone else's depiction of the moon's distance from Earth.
No because that's literally not its name, its name is not "Lightspeed mode" do you have any reading comprehension? Also again that would imply Kid Buu not being FTL even though he obliterated Galaxies over the years or Whis not being FTL travelling through the universe. Or we go the non canon route with Broly obliterating a Galaxy, King Vegeta casually destroying 3 planets in an instant, Gogeta lighting up the after life all FTL feats
ricky84 wrote:1. 380,000 kilometers equals 236,121.053 miles. So that's still further away than in real life, so you are still wrong.
2. Again, Tien in the 22th had a technique literally named Light Speed Fist, so your Dyspo argument doesn't hold.
3. So you are going to ignore all previous feats, scaling and statements just for some misconstrued line about Dyspo? Also, Suppressed Beerus (who traveled several galaxies in 2 mintues) didn't reveal any more power in the BoG arc than SSG Goku. So by scaling anyone equal or better than BoG Goku has to have a travel speed at least millions of times FTL.
1. The moon in real life is up to 250,000 miles from the Earth at it's furthest so it's not.
2. Its actually "Fist of the sun" IIRC, and just because you want to believe hyperbole can be construed with literal statements doesn't make my argument wrong.
3. What feats, scalings, and statements are you talking about??? I never said anything about characters weaker therefore slower than Dyspo being invalid, but that the level of Dyspo is where lightspeed/FTL speed begins. You're the one who began it with Raditz being FTL somehow.
This would mean DB's moon is actually equal in distance to the one in real life, which either way undermines your entire argument since you tried to claim that DB's moon was massively closer than in real life.
2. Your ignoring the fact that BoZ Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon was clearly a FTL attack, since it scales above the attack Piccolo used to blow up the moon. So be common sense anyone DB character stronger than BoZ Goku & and Piccolo should already be FTL.
Let's use some logic here. It takes light 27 Billions to travel across the universe. The shockwaves from Goku and Beerus's clashes traveled across the U7 macrocosm in just a few seconds. If Dyspo was really the first FTL character then it would have literally took 27 Billion years for Goku and Beerus to threaten the universe with their clashes . You see why Dyspo being the fist FTL doesn't make sense?
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
This is not the place to actually hold a "debate" on this stuff. If it's actually worth discussing (and I have my doubts about that), then make a new thread for it.
ricky84 wrote:
That's a bad rebuttal. Not all FTL things are equally fast, logically. FTL could mean anything from 2x the speed of light to something crazy like over trillions of times the speed of light.
It's just that you're mentioning the speed of Beerus as if it was somehow relevant for gauging the speed of Raditz, which makes no sense. Beerus is much stronger than the aforementioned Dyspo, so it makes sense for him to be at least as fast as him. But I don't see how you can extend that to someone like Raditz.
The case of Raditz is simple. You see, Piccolo at the beginning of Z was able to casually blow up the moon in like 2 to 4 seconds. It takes light 1.2 seconds to reach the moon from Earth. Piccolo would then charge up a Special Beam Cannon (which boosted his ki over 4 times, so it should be 4x stronger and faster than the blast that blew up the moon) to shoot at Raditz and Raditz was able to dodge it at the last instant when Goku let go of his tail. That right there were clear FTL feats from both Piccolo and Raditz.
I just call that an inconsistency, especially since in the Buu saga it still takes characters several minutes to fly to other places on the surface of the Earth. I don't think Dyspo is the weakest character to be faster than light, though. Anyone SSJG tier or above probably is (unless it's some gimmick character that doesn't focus on speed as a primary part of their abilities), e.g. Botamo, Shantza, etc.)
Here's one that was floating around for a while after Battle Of Gods:
Gohan lost his "Ultimate/Potential Unlocked" form when he took part in the Super Saiyan God ritual.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
- Saiyan beyond God was retconned
- The world would explode if Ultimate Gohan goes SSJ
- Pikkon is a Namekian
- Freeza is gay
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
Steven Bloodriver wrote:Legendary Super Saiyan Broly is the strongest in the Universe.
According to Koyama (who wrote all 13 Z movies) this is actually true lmao.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
ricky84 wrote:- Saiyan beyond God was retconned
- The world would explode if Ultimate Gohan goes SSJ
- Pikkon is a Namekian
- Freeza is gay
Are you really sure Frieza is straight?
He's from an asexual race like Namekians. Well, maybe it aint that dumb to assume Freeza is homosexual lmao.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
ricky84 wrote:- Saiyan beyond God was retconned
- The world would explode if Ultimate Gohan goes SSJ
- Pikkon is a Namekian
- Freeza is gay
Saiyan Beyond God WAS retconned
Ultimate Gohan can't go SSJ that defeats the entire purpose of the "Ultimate" state, or at least he can't gain a power boost from going SSJ.
are we given any indication what race Pikkon is?
We dont know that Freeza is straight either
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
PFM18 wrote:
Ultimate Gohan can't go SSJ that defeats the entire purpose of the "Ultimate" state, or at least he can't gain a power boost from going SSJ.
Ultimate Gohan SSJ is a thing tho. He went SSJ against Beerus in early version of Battle of Gods and even original poster showed him this way.
And he went SSJ agaisnt Super 17 despite being said to be the same super-warrior he became to fight Super Buu.
In both cases it might be just a mistake, especially considering they removed Gohan SSJ from final version of BoG (except for ritual).
There' also this thing although i'm not really sure if its Ultimate:
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta