Can DB Ever Move Past Goku?

[ABED]

Revivals should be to continue the story either where we left the characters off or years into the future if it's live action and it's been a while. I get wanting to experiment but you can't go too far out the lines or the thing is no longer the thing anymore.

[Grimlock]

Does Dragon Ball really need to be more than it is?

No. It can remain the same forever and ever. Surely there won't be any problem with that.

[MyVisionity]

Goku's story would have to be concluded for that to happen. Even then, I doubt that a mainline DB series would hold up that well, it may have to be spinoffs from there.
Then again, I could be wrong.

If it's not gonna be spinoffs, then the only way to keep it going once Goku's story concludes is bring in another Goku.

He could be Goku's double from a different universe, or a clone left behind by Dr. Gero, or maybe even just someone who was inspired by Goku's actions and persona and has decided to take his name.

Either way, the series gets to continue on with a Goku that isn't Goku, creating fresh dynamics between the characters, new plots and mysteries to work through, while the audience becomes invested in a new main character.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

It's possible. MasakoX recommended doing a space odyssey adventure show with Broly and Cheeli, that could be cool.
But I doubt think the main story will ever move past Goku because Toriyama can't move past Goku. He spent all that time setting up Gohan to be the hero just to say "I don't want this flavor anymore" when the time came to have Gohan step up against Boo.

[ABED]

It's possible. MasakoX recommended doing a space odyssey adventure show with Broly and Cheeli, that could be cool.
But I doubt think the main story will ever move past Goku because Toriyama can't move past Goku. He spent all that time setting up Gohan to be the hero just to say "I don't want this flavor anymore" when the time came to have Gohan step up against Boo.

Is it better that he continue to focus on a character he isn't as interested in?

If it's not gonna be spinoffs, then the only way to keep it going once Goku's story concludes is bring in another Goku.

He could be Goku's double from a different universe, or a clone left behind by Dr. Gero, or maybe even just someone who was inspired by Goku's actions and persona and has decided to take his name.

Either way, the series gets to continue on with a Goku that isn't Goku, creating fresh dynamics between the characters, new plots and mysteries to work through, while the audience becomes invested in a new main character.

That feels hollow. DB isn't about characters named Goku, it's about one particular Goku.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

Probably not. But at this point Toriyama is about as involved in writing the manga as Stan Lee was in writing Marvel comic books. (Gives a plit outline to his artist and has them finish writing the story.) So he could let his artist try to breath some new life into Goku and his friends.

[Pafupafu]

I imagine if Dragonball was released in a time with more distribution channels and resources like now, there would easily have been spin-offs made of wildly popular supporting characters (ie. Future Trunks). I always said the biggest issue with trying to pass the torch of lead character to Gohan is there was an immediate and somewhat jarring time jump following Goku’s passing. Everything was unfamiliar again and the Gohan that peaked in popularity and importance defeating Cell was sort of relegated to nerdy boyscout with fairly cliche problems to solve.

When the time jump happened before the 23rd tournament, Goku was still pretty much the same character, just with a taller design and mysterious skills to later put to use. Gohan’s fairly radical character change happened completely off-screen and I think that made him a hard sell to immediately lead such a long-running story.

[jjgp1112]

I imagine if Dragonball was released in a time with more distribution channels and resources like now, there would easily have been spin-offs made of wildly popular supporting characters (ie. Future Trunks). I always said the biggest issue with trying to pass the torch of lead character to Gohan is there was an immediate and somewhat jarring time jump following Goku’s passing. Everything was unfamiliar again and the Gohan that peaked in popularity and importance defeating Cell was sort of relegated to nerdy boyscout with fairly cliche problems to solve.

When the time jump happened before the 23rd tournament, Goku was still pretty much the same character, just with a taller design and mysterious skills to later put to use. Gohan’s fairly radical character change happened completely off-screen and I think that made him a hard sell to immediately lead such a long-running story.

I think the problem is Akira Toriyama has essentially two "protagonist" character types: 1) the pure-hearted dimwit who's character goals are completely at odds with everyone else (Arale, Goku) and 2) the overly earnest werido who's way too into his passion and doesn't realize how fucking bizarre and goofy he comes off to everyone else (Senbei Norimaki, Neko Majin, Jaco). In other words, a parody/deconstrcution of the shonen hero. I'm aware there's some overlap here at times.

When Gohan became the main character, he was way too smart, and also established as someone who didn't exactly care for Dragon Ball's modus operandi, and so Toriyama just kinda bended and twisted his character to fit archetype #2. I mean, look at shit like this:



Your typical Toriyama "Get a load of this fucking dork" humor. The guy who doesn't realize he's the punchline. And while that character works great as a slapstick comedy protagonist, it doesn't work as the main hero of a fast-and-loose martial arts comic. Neither does Gohan's pre-Saiyaman character, unless you're looking to get really deep into the series' ethos...which of course Toriyama ain't gonna fuckin' do. So it makes sense that when he ditched the slice of life high school stuff and honed in on a villain, he'd go away from Gohan.

[KBABZ]

while that character works great as a slapstick comedy protagonist, it doesn't work as the main hero of a fast-and-loose martial arts comic. Neither does Gohan's pre-Saiyaman character, unless you're looking to get really deep into the series' ethos...which of course Toriyama ain't gonna fuckin' do. So it makes sense that when he ditched the slice of life high school stuff and honed in on a villain, he'd go away from Gohan.

I think it could have worked if Gohan was forced to step up yet again, but realizes mid-way through that really Goten and Trunks are better suited to this sort of thing then he is and leaves it up to them at the end of the arc.

[MyVisionity]

If it's not gonna be spinoffs, then the only way to keep it going once Goku's story concludes is bring in another Goku.

He could be Goku's double from a different universe, or a clone left behind by Dr. Gero, or maybe even just someone who was inspired by Goku's actions and persona and has decided to take his name.

Either way, the series gets to continue on with a Goku that isn't Goku, creating fresh dynamics between the characters, new plots and mysteries to work through, while the audience becomes invested in a new main character.

That feels hollow. DB isn't about characters named Goku, it's about one particular Goku.

Yeah but if the story were to continue beyond Goku's story, then who better for Goku to pass the torch to than Goku. Sure, it may not be that one particular Goku, but neither would any other character. At least this way the story would still belong to "Goku".

Dragon Ball is a simple enough series that if someone steps in and says "I'm Son Goku!", the story wouldn't have much problem moving forward and the audience could probably accept it just as easily.

[ABED]

But that's not Goku. It's a character with the same name but all the relationships and history are gone. It's cheap and again, hollow

Why is everyone here who says they want the story to move past Goku so sure that this one element is the thing that is preventing the story from moving forward? What's the appeal of DB without Goku?

[KBABZ]

Not having to rely on him saving the day at the end and everyone else having to figure out WTF to do.

[ABED]

Not having to rely on him saving the day at the end and everyone else having to figure out WTF to do.

You can say that about any story with a lead character. It's an interesting plot for a few episodes but any more than that and not only does it become boring, it loses what made it spark to begin with.

It's like continuing Superman without Superman, Batman without Batman, The Office without Michael Scott, Monk without Monk, 24 without Jack Bauer, That '70s Show without Eric

[KBABZ]

Not having to rely on him saving the day at the end and everyone else having to figure out WTF to do.

You can say that about any story with a lead character. It's an interesting plot for a few episodes but any more than that and not only does it become boring, it loses what made it spark to begin with.

It's like continuing Superman without Superman, Batman without Batman, The Office without Michael Scott, Monk without Monk, 24 without Jack Bauer, That '70s Show without Eric

I've always felt Goku was the lead of Dragon Ball but not on the level of "may as well be self-titled". IMO the series has been about more than just him since Gohan showed up.

[Shaddy]

Revivals should be to continue the story either where we left the characters off or years into the future if it's live action and it's been a while. I get wanting to experiment but you can't go too far out the lines or the thing is no longer the thing anymore.

The lines are subjective. You've proven several times over just how thick yours are, I am not the same way.

[ABED]

Not having to rely on him saving the day at the end and everyone else having to figure out WTF to do.

You can say that about any story with a lead character. It's an interesting plot for a few episodes but any more than that and not only does it become boring, it loses what made it spark to begin with.

It's like continuing Superman without Superman, Batman without Batman, The Office without Michael Scott, Monk without Monk, 24 without Jack Bauer, That '70s Show without Eric

I've always felt Goku was the lead of Dragon Ball but not on the level of "may as well be self-titled". IMO the series has been about more than just him since Gohan showed up.

The other characters bring a lot to the table but not so much you can get rid of the main character. Think of all the relationships that are just gone if you get rid of him.

The lines are subjective. You've proven several times over just how thick yours are, I am not the same way.

Your suggestion is so vague, I can't wrap my head around it. Like give me a for instance? What makes your idea still Dragon Ball?

The reason you revive something is because people want to see more of that thing. Experimenting with it too much and it defeats the purpose of why it was brought back to begin with. So many of these revivals fail not because they don't experiment but because they just don't take the story forward in a meaningful organic way or the conditions of time/era they were created in are no longer the case.

[MyVisionity]

But that's not Goku. It's a character with the same name but all the relationships and history are gone.

Not necessarily. If it's a double from a parallel Earth then that Goku may share some or all of the same relationships and history as our Goku. And same idea if it were a clone.

If it's an all new person simply calling themselves by Goku's name, then in that case you're right that the relationships and history are not exactly there. However that just means that the new "Goku" would take advantage of the old Goku's relationships and history and build on those, making them his or her own.

You can say that about any story with a lead character. It's an interesting plot for a few episodes but any more than that and not only does it become boring, it loses what made it spark to begin with.

It's like continuing Superman without Superman, Batman without Batman, The Office without Michael Scott, Monk without Monk, 24 without Jack Bauer, That '70s Show without Eric

The stories don't always need what made them spark to begin with in order to continue. Or they can recreate the original spark or find a new one. Even more so with comic book superheroes, because of their costumed identities transcending their civilian identities, as well as the turnover in creative teams. And plenty of television shows have changed out their lead characters for new ones and continued on, sometimes even more successfully than before. Not always, but it's certainly possible.

Of course DB being in the manga/anime format means that these conditions don't necessarily apply. I'm just addressing why your examples wouldn't preclude DB continuing without Goku.

[ABED]

Even more so with comic book superheroes, because of their costumed identities transcending their civilian identities, as well as the turnover in creative teams. And plenty of television shows have changed out their lead characters for new ones and continued on, sometimes even more successfully than before.

First, Goku isn't a costumed personality, he's a very specific character. And second, what show can you think of that changed their lead characters and were even more successful than before? At best, it is good but not what it once was.

In your idea, if it's a clone then why do it? Apparently they are the same so why make the change to begin with?

I'd like to see the story focus on Goku as a grandfather or a teacher. The difference is that instead of focusing on the students, the POV of the story is still from his perspective.

[jjgp1112]

Not having to rely on him saving the day at the end and everyone else having to figure out WTF to do.

You can say that about any story with a lead character. It's an interesting plot for a few episodes but any more than that and not only does it become boring, it loses what made it spark to begin with.

It's like continuing Superman without Superman, Batman without Batman, The Office without Michael Scott, Monk without Monk, 24 without Jack Bauer, That '70s Show without Eric

I've always felt Goku was the lead of Dragon Ball but not on the level of "may as well be self-titled". IMO the series has been about more than just him since Gohan showed up.

I mean, ABED already gets to what he's saying in later examples...even series with strong ensemble casts completely fall apart once the main character is gone, because he's the central driving force of the plot and the anchor. The Office was terrible after Michael Scott left. That 70s Show was terrible after Eric left. There's simply no story to tell once the main character is gone.

[Zinnia]

And then you have the next generation. I believe Uub can (and should) take up on the role of the protagonist, along with Goten, Trunks, Pan, Bra and Marron.

I never understood the logic behind people wanting this. It's being done with multiple franchises right now (Boruto, Inuyasha just to name a few), but they'll be nowhere near as popular as the original deal. And even then, the most popular chapters are the ones where Naruto and Sasuke get epic fights, because more people will always tune in to watch the old cast.

It doesn't help that the writers, be it Toriyama or Toyotaro, totally avoid giving Goten and Trunks any relevant role for what, 10 years now?. Suddenly making them relevant in a next-gen sequel would be jarring, and a "too little, too late" kind of deal.

Uub, Pan and Bra aren't characters who can carry a series on their own either.