Making a Good DB Story v. Making a Good Story

[MyVisionity]

Has it evolved? Yes. Has it evolved past Toriyama? No. For all the reasons stated above. Maybe "transcended" is a better term.

Dragonball Evolution does carry DB DNA. It's an example of a bad Dragon Ball story.

[PurestEvil]

Has Toriyama evolved?

[SupremeKai25]

Has it evolved? Yes. Has it evolved past Toriyama? No. For all the reasons stated above. Maybe "transcended" is a better term.

Dragonball Evolution does carry DB DNA. It's an example of a bad Dragon Ball story.

Actually I would say Yes, didn't this thread start because someone here said that Super Anime delved into the "Power of Friendship" theme that Toriyama never used?

[Yuji]

I don't consider anything "evolved" if it still takes cues and tries to emulate the aesthetic and style of the original author. That's not "evolving" whatever that means. Star Wars didn't evolve from George Lucas either.

Something evolved would be the superhero comics targeting entirely different demographics and handling unconventional subject matters with their various writers. DB is still essentially the same tonally throughout, which is not a bad thing necessarily.

[Majin Buu]

In the general threat for the DBS comic someone (doesn't matter who, this is not a call-out post) brought up that the 'writers' (generalized term for Tomioka Atsuhiro and the others, I suppose?) don't understand Gokuu because they wrote him as using the power of friendship in the last two episodes. I don't necessarily think Gokuu preached about the subject, simply having a natural reaction to someone's friends being attacked.

Re: the Power of Friendship stuff. I don't think Goku's speech would be bad in isolation, but the anime had been hamfistedly shoving that particular theme down our throats constantly since the Zamasu arc and never really stopped. So by that point, it felt less cathartic than they probably intended. That said, I don't mind that they gave Goku a loose arc of sorts, where he starts off as his exaggerated dumbass hick self and gradually evolves into a more serious and responsible 'Toei-fied' version of himself as he begins to understand the stakes. May not be anything Toriyama would've done but it was enjoyable.

I found this odd when I came across the cutscene depicting some of this in Dokkan Battle (The part where he says "I'm no hero of justice or anything like that, but anyone who hurts my friends is gonna pay!"). It's like, the sentiment is very much in-character for Goku, but having him verbalize it directly like that isn't. It feels more like something Luffy or Naruto would say than Goku.

[JulieYBM]

This thread doesn't really make too much sense because it implies any story that doesn't follow what Toriyama wants can't be considered a DB story.

DB has simply evolved beyond Toriyama to the point that he isn't even the only one who holds the rights to the franchise anymore.

So for instance, if DB Heroes made a genuinely good episode, it would be a good DB story. Toriyama doesn't dictate what is or isn't Dragon Ball And the way he writes DB isn't the only way DB can be written.

Oh, I do not deny or dislike this fact at all. Dragon Ball is not only created by Toriyama and that ultimately stands for all works of art.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

Ehhh...I mean we could say this about any published work of fiction, so it's not really a discredit to Toriyama. People mention Toriyama because his name is the one most immediately associated with Dragon Ball, not out of ignoring the other creators involved. It's not a Bill Finger Batman situation. George Lucas couldn't be the only person to make any of the Star Wars what they were, as it was a collaborative effort. From John Williams to Irvin Kirschner, or even Timothy Zahn with the old Expanded Universe which kept Star Wars afloat until the prequels, then authors like James Luceno and Drew Karpyshyn, etc. who added a ton of lore...yeah, of course you could name several others who contributed heavily to its enduring success. Even with the manga, Toriyama's editor Torishima had a huge impact on a lot of it. That doesn't mean the series isn't still following Toriyama's imprint. If it's evolved, it's evolved on the basis of his work, not in spite of it. So I don't really get the disdain for Toriyama being credited for Dragon Ball while praising the likes of Heroes and Super.

[jjgp1112]

DB didn't "evolve" past Toriyama, that makes no sense. Every piece of content still adheres to Toriyama's world, aesthetic, rules and style. Even if the man himself isn't directly responsible, every other writer is trying to emulate his style, to various degrees of success. The only piece of Dragon Ball fiction that comes to mind that wouldn't carry DB DNA is Evolution because it deliberately chose to shy away from what DB is.

Yeah because then it objectively wouldn't be "Dragon Ball", it can't be Dragon Ball if it's not set in the 12 Universes of Dragon Ball, this isn't really an argument. It's like saying that Star Wars hasn't evolved in all these years just because it still takes place in a world created by Lucas, thank you, that's the bare minimum for it to be Star Wars.

Heroes is one of the most popular arcade videogames in Japan, countless people like it, and it has almost 0 Toriyama involvement with it. DB has evolved.

But Heroes is just that - a video game. It's a dumb little side story to promote merchandise that has little to do with mainline Dragon Ball and also wouldn't exist without it. It's Dragon Ball, but also a Dragon Ball that ultimately doesn't matter in the long run.

Plus, I think we're all ignoring the Elephant in the Room here: what Dragon Ball material outside of things directly adapted from the 1984-1995 manga has truly, consistently been good? GT, Super, and and Heroes are divisive to say the least. Outside of that, you have the two specials that were definitely rousing successes, and then maybe 3 or 4 movies that rise beyond fight vehicles. So with all the evidence, one has to wonder if a Dragon Ball beyond Toriyama's direct pen is really worth much.

There's a reason why fans place so much importance on Toriyama's involvement; Toei's track record ain't exactly winning the Daytona 500 here.

[ABED]

Ehhh...I mean we could say this about any published work of fiction, so it's not really a discredit to Toriyama. People mention Toriyama because his name is the one most immediately associated with Dragon Ball, not out of ignoring the other creators involved. It's not a Bill Finger Batman situation. George Lucas couldn't be the only person to make any of the Star Wars what they were, as it was a collaborative effort. From John Williams to Irvin Kirschner, or even Timothy Zahn with the old Expanded Universe which kept Star Wars afloat until the prequels, then authors like James Luceno and Drew Karpyshyn, etc. who added a ton of lore...yeah, of course you could name several others who contributed heavily to its enduring success. Even with the manga, Toriyama's editor Torishima had a huge impact on a lot of it. That doesn't mean the series isn't still following Toriyama's imprint. If it's evolved, it's evolved on the basis of his work, not in spite of it. So I don't really get the disdain for Toriyama being credited for Dragon Ball while praising the likes of Heroes and Super.

Dragon Ball was a comic. Star Wars was a movie. Two very different mediums, the later of which couldn't possibly be the work of a single person.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

Dragon Ball was a comic. Star Wars was a movie. Two very different mediums, the later of which couldn't possibly be the work of a single person.

Maybe that wasn't the most apt comparison to draw, but my point still stands. Lucas is still the name most commonly attributed to Star Wars despite it being a vast collaborative effort, and it still makes sense why. My point was toward the people saying that many others contributed to Dragon Ball besides Toriyama. Of course it wasn't a production or a collaboration of Star Wars-level magnitude. But to those who are saying "Dragon Ball isn't all Toriyama" it still makes perfect sense why his name is most commonly associated with it.

I'm sure I could draw much more applicable comparisons across other comics, I just can't think of any off the top of my head.

[WittyUsername]

Even for the original manga, Toriyama still often followed notes from his editors, so it’s a bit of a reach to say that it was all the work of a single person.

[ABED]

All that says is he had people's whose opinions he trusted to give him constructive feedback, but that's any good creative. It's still his work. He had the freedom to not take their notes.

[WittyUsername]

All that says is he had people's whose opinions he trusted to give him constructive feedback, but that's any good creative. It's still his work. He had the freedom to not take their notes.

It was his work, but he had other people to give him advice, just as George Lucas did.

[MasenkoHA]

Even for the original manga, Toriyama still often followed notes from his editors, so it’s a bit of a reach to say that it was all the work of a single person.

The bigger reach is trying to say Toriyama doesn’t deserve sole credit simply because he was receptive to editor feedback.

This isn’t even unique. Most authors tend to take some sort of feedback in their writing. Be it friends, family members, fans, etc. Toriyama’s former editor didn’t create 17 and 18 Toriyama did when he listened to his old editor joke the big bads were a fatso and an old geezer.

[ABED]

All that says is he had people's whose opinions he trusted to give him constructive feedback, but that's any good creative. It's still his work. He had the freedom to not take their notes.

It was his work, but he had other people to give him advice, just as George Lucas did.

But not to nearly the same extent. Marcia Lucas was his editor and probably more influencial on him than we all realized but an editor on the film is FAR different than an editor on a novel or manga. One provides valuable feedback, the other puts the damn thing together. Also, the work of Lucas's contributors is far more obvious. E.G., what actors such as Carrie Fisher, James Earl Jones, and Harrison Ford bring to the end product is more obvious than what Toriyama's collaberators brought to the end product.

[MasenkoHA]

All that says is he had people's whose opinions he trusted to give him constructive feedback, but that's any good creative. It's still his work. He had the freedom to not take their notes.

It was his work, but he had other people to give him advice, just as George Lucas did.

But not to nearly the same extent. Marcia Lucas was his editor and probably more influencial on him than we all realized but an editor on the film is FAR different than an editor on a novel or manga. One provides feedback, the other puts the damn thing together.

Not to mention John Williams score. Ralph Mcquarrie’s concept art .https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnet.c ... id-mandel/


Film is a collaboration effort and never down to a single person. The divine worship George Lucas gets when the original trilogy succeeded despite George Lucas and not because of him is amazing.

[WittyUsername]

Even for the original manga, Toriyama still often followed notes from his editors, so it’s a bit of a reach to say that it was all the work of a single person.

The bigger reach is trying to say Toriyama doesn’t deserve sole credit simply because he was receptive to editor feedback.

This isn’t even unique. Most authors tend to take some sort of feedback in their writing. Be it friends, family members, fans, etc. Toriyama’s former editor didn’t create 17 and 18 Toriyama did when he listened to his old editor joke the big bads were a fatso and an old geezer.

I’m not saying that Toriyama’s editors deserve “credit” necessarily, but Dragon Ball wouldn’t have been the same if Toriyama didn’t listen to them.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

It was his work, but he had other people to give him advice, just as George Lucas did.

But not to nearly the same extent. Marcia Lucas was his editor and probably more influencial on him than we all realized but an editor on the film is FAR different than an editor on a novel or manga. One provides feedback, the other puts the damn thing together.

Not to mention John Williams score. Ralph Mcquarrie’s concept art .https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnet.c ... id-mandel/


Film is a collaboration effort and never down to a single person. The divine worship George Lucas gets when the original trilogy succeeded despite George Lucas and not because of him is amazing.

I think he deserves a lot of the story credit (although even that not entirely), but when it comes to just about everything else, what worked about those movies is definitely more attributed to the others involved. He was never good with writing dialogue or directing actors, and it shows. That said, I get why his name is the first people think of since he came up with the idea. I'm not saying he should get any "divine worship" in relation to the other architects of those films by any means. Unfortunately, concept artists never get any widespread attention; if anything Ralph McQuarrie is probably the one most people have heard of in the first place. And John Williams is John Williams; his work on Star Wars, let alone his other work, definitely isn't overlooked.

But I agree with the general sentiment. Honestly, the original film wouldn't have worked had Alec Guinness not been Obi-Wan Kenobi. As good as Ford and the rest were, he was the only actor taking it seriously at the time because everyone else thought it was a joke. What worked (and didn't work) about Dragon Ball is consistently Toriyama.

[Cure Dragon 255]

But not to nearly the same extent. Marcia Lucas was his editor and probably more influencial on him than we all realized but an editor on the film is FAR different than an editor on a novel or manga. One provides feedback, the other puts the damn thing together.

Not to mention John Williams score. Ralph Mcquarrie’s concept art .https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnet.c ... id-mandel/


Film is a collaboration effort and never down to a single person. The divine worship George Lucas gets when the original trilogy succeeded despite George Lucas and not because of him is amazing.

I think he deserves a lot of the story credit (although even that not entirely), but when it comes to just about everything else, what worked about those movies is definitely more attributed to the others involved. He was never good with writing dialogue or directing actors, and it shows. That said, I get why his name is the first people think of since he came up with the idea. I'm not saying he should get any "divine worship" in relation to the other architects of those films by any means. Unfortunately, concept artists never get any widespread attention; if anything Ralph McQuarrie is probably the one most people have heard of in the first place. And John Williams is John Williams; his work on Star Wars, let alone his other work, definitely isn't overlooked.

But I agree with the general sentiment. Honestly, the original film wouldn't have worked had Alec Guinness not been Obi-Wan Kenobi. As good as Ford and the rest were, he was the only actor taking it seriously at the time because everyone else thought it was a joke. What worked (and didn't work) about Dragon Ball is consistently Toriyama.

That's hilarious since it was Sir Alec Guinness who HATED the movie and thought it was a joke more than anyone else on set.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

That's hilarious since it was Sir Alec Guinness who HATED the movie and thought it was a joke more than anyone else on set.

What Alec Guinness hated was that following the movie, people saw him only as Obi-Wan, despite all of his other legendary film performances. I mean, I'm sure he thought the dialogue he was reading was atrocious, but my point is he still was clearly taking it seriously. It's even more of a credit to him if he hated the material. The man was an class A professional. Even the other actors have commented on this over the years.