Is the split explanation of the Potara fusion in Daima a Ret-Con or not?

[jjbgood]

No, it is not. It is the original statement that has been reconfirmed. The explanation in Super doesn't contradict it, because both can be true. When Buu absorbs someone, the Potara fusion is cancelled and when mortals fuse, it has a time limit. There is no contradiction between the two. Both can exist. But what is actually a retcon, or a continuity error, is that neither the Kaioshin nor Son Goku in Super knew that the fusion could be cancelled that way. They both thought that the fusion would last forever until Gowasu cleared it up.

[Kaboom]

Even if they're backtracking just a little bit, and proposing that the inner-Boo environment simply defused Vegetto before the time limit could... then that's still waaaay better than claiming "Vegetto actually had an unmentioned time limit that just so happened to expire the exact moment he dropped his forcefield" and expecting the viewers/readers to be dumb enough to believe it.

But as usual, the best option is just to ignore Super's revisionist nonsense. Especially since Goku and Vegeta fusing against Zamas wasn't part of Toriyama's original plans/draft to begin with.

[JulieYBM]

I honestly think it's kind of a pointless question. What likely happened is that nobody brought up pre-established explanations that had already been given and Toriyama—having probably just re-read the Majin Buu arc—was like, "Oh, this is how I said it worked, right?" Someone should have brought up the other explanations that have been given, but it didn't happen. I think that's a real shame that this 'might' mean no more Kefla, but that's really all the more reason why other creators should be allowed to do as they please and not stick so rigidily to Toriyama's ideas.

[Rafa Fast]

Then I guess the true retcon (not counting Unfused Kibitoshin, which can still be solved) would be Kaioshin's belief about Vegetto defusing, Boo saga and Daima being Boo's gas, and Super changing to the time limit when Gowasu gave the new explanation.

Both can very well coexist, the thing is, it would be too convenient if Vegetto's time limit ended just in the exactly moment where the Boo gas should affect him, so it's either this or Kaioshin in Super jumped to his new conclusion prematurely.

I would just like to remember though that the "1 hour limit" explanation in the manga was actually made in order to weaken Zamasu's fusion, and not Vegetto, the amount of power used was what made Vegetto unfuse, so we know very well what was the true importance for that explanation to exist, regardless of Toriyama not being involved with Vegetto inclusion in the manga nor the anime, that explanation would still exist without him, so either Tori forgot about that information or it was again Toei/Toyotaro who came with that explanation in order to make Zamasu Gattai less dangerous.

[Dbzfan94]

Since Super-related stuff isn't mentioned Daima takes either place before Super (becomes a crowded time line, lol) or Super isn't canon anymore.

I’m the last person to defend Super but DBS already has 3 timelines on its own. Daima can simply it’s own timeline. Doesn’t negate either one being canon or not.

[Yuji]

I think the only retcon or inconsistency here is if Kibitoshin stays unfused now and in any other pre-BoG material that gets released. Other implications can be chalked up to the characters being silly, forgetting or misunderstanding certain details.

I think Kibitoshin will stay unfused because, as I believe Mr. Baggins pointed out, Shin alone is present in Toriyama's BoG illustrations, so it seems Toriyama never cared about that detail.

For what it's worth, Geekdom seems to hold some info regarding Daima and he claims it will follow and directly tie into Super either at the end or in a future project, so if this is to be believed, we can stop all the continuity talks and chalk this up as to another inconsistency between Toriyama's notes and the anime staff.

[WittyUsername]

Even if we decided to accept the idea that both the “bad air” explanation and the “one hour” explanations are true, that still begs the question of why Goku felt the need to ask Gowasu why he and Vegeta defused back when they used the Potara the first time, if he knew it was because of being absorbed by Boo. You also have to wonder why Kibito Kaioshin went through the trouble of using the Dragon Balls to defuse the second time, instead of just having Boo absorb them again.

Honestly, stuff like this makes me think that it would be much simpler if we just treated Super and Daima as occupying different branches of continuity from one another, but if Geekdom says that not what they’re going for, then I don’t even know anymore. Maybe something will happen by the end of Daima that erases all these events, and no one remembers any of them.

[Koitsukai]

Even if we decided to accept the idea that both the “bad air” explanation and the “one hour” explanations are true, that still begs the question of why Goku felt the need to ask Gowasu why he and Vegeta defused back when they used the Potara the first time, if he knew it was because of being absorbed by Boo. You also have to wonder why Kibito Kaioshin went through the trouble of using the Dragon Balls to defuse the second time, instead of just having Boo absorb them again.

Thing is Goku asks Gowasu in the anime, but never does that in the manga, Vegeta is there eavesdropping on it but we don't know if he was paying attention to Shin's explanation in Daima.
So the manga is still in the clear, which is probably what Toriyama used as reference. So, yeah, sure the anime is getting fucked, but it was already fucked with so many contradictory things it always had to begin with.
Only Shin ends up looking dumb because he should know better that Vegito wasn't fused that long (or that if SS shortened so much the fusion time, then SSB will be much worse), but Shin being clueless isn't new or a problem.

And we don't have to wonder anything yet about Kibitoshin for the second defusing, the show might actually cover all of that. If by the time Daima is over we haven't gotten anything on that, only then we can start wonder about it, like assuming Buu was asleep or something. It really isn't that deep.
And if the manga ever comes back, I can see Toyo explaining it somehow.

[WittyUsername]

Even if we decided to accept the idea that both the “bad air” explanation and the “one hour” explanations are true, that still begs the question of why Goku felt the need to ask Gowasu why he and Vegeta defused back when they used the Potara the first time, if he knew it was because of being absorbed by Boo. You also have to wonder why Kibito Kaioshin went through the trouble of using the Dragon Balls to defuse the second time, instead of just having Boo absorb them again.

Thing is Goku asks Gowasu in the anime, but never does that in the manga, Vegeta is there eavesdropping on it but we don't know if he was paying attention to Shin's explanation in Daima.
So the manga is still in the clear, which is probably what Toriyama used as reference. So, yeah, sure the anime is getting fucked, but it was already fucked with so many contradictory things it always had to begin with.
Only Shin ends up looking dumb because he should know better that Vegito wasn't fused that long (or that if SS shortened so much the fusion time, then SSB will be much worse), but Shin being clueless isn't new or a problem.

And we don't have to wonder anything yet about Kibitoshin for the second defusing, the show might actually cover all of that. If by the time Daima is over we haven't gotten anything on that, only then we can start wonder about it, like assuming Buu was asleep or something. It really isn't that deep.
And if the manga ever comes back, I can see Toyo explaining it somehow.

I’m not convinced Toriyama was taking the Potara time limit thing into account at all. From my understanding, Vegetto was never even part of his outline for the Future Trunks arc. Toei chose to do that for the sake of fanservice, and Toyatoro decided to follow suit for basically the same reason.

[Caulifor]

Okay, Vegetto wasn't part of Toriyama's outline, but what about Kefla? Do we know if he had any hand in adding her to the Tournament of Power, and making her defuse?

[SupremeKai25]

Okay, Vegetto wasn't part of Toriyama's outline, but what about Kefla? Do we know if he had any hand in adding her to the Tournament of Power, and making her defuse?

Kefla defused because her Potara was destroyed by Goku's kamehameha. That doesn't contradict anything from the original series. The power of fusion is granted by the earrings, ergo, if you destroy the earrings, the fusion is undone.

[WittyUsername]

Personally, I never liked the whole retcon Super gave concerning the Potara. To me, the fact that the Potara were seemingly permanent was the most interesting thing about it. It was a legitimate drawback that set it apart from the Fusion Dance. As it stands, the Potara pretty much has no downsides to its use, to the point where the Fusion Dance might as well not exist.

[Caulifor]

Okay, Vegetto wasn't part of Toriyama's outline, but what about Kefla? Do we know if he had any hand in adding her to the Tournament of Power, and making her defuse?

Kefla defused because her Potara was destroyed by Goku's kamehameha. That doesn't contradict anything from the original series. The power of fusion is granted by the earrings, ergo, if you destroy the earrings, the fusion is undone.

Why did the original series make such a big deal about Goku and Vegeta staying fused forever if the solution was as simple as destroying the earrings? I know this was likely debated extensively when it happened in Super, but still.

Setting that aside, did Toriyama have a role in adding Kefla to the story and having her defuse? Do we know if that was part of his outline? Because if it was, instead of having Kibitoshin ask for Boo’s help, they could’ve just... destroyed the earrings. Or are we really supposed to believe no one thought of that obvious solution until Kefla?

My point is, it feels like Toriyama is either ignoring or unaware of the two ways Super has shown to end a Potara fusion, which only adds insult to injury.

Personally, I never liked the whole retcon Super gave concerning the Potara. To me, the fact that the Potara were seemingly permanent was the most interesting thing about it. It was a legitimate drawback that set it apart from the Fusion Dance. As it stands, the Potara pretty much has no downsides to its use, to the point where the Fusion Dance might as well not exist.

Agreed. Honestly, ignoring Super and going with Daima's explanation actually seems to be the better option regarding Potara rules, maybe that's why Toriyama did it lol

[SupremeKai25]

Okay, Vegetto wasn't part of Toriyama's outline, but what about Kefla? Do we know if he had any hand in adding her to the Tournament of Power, and making her defuse?

Kefla defused because her Potara was destroyed by Goku's kamehameha. That doesn't contradict anything from the original series. The power of fusion is granted by the earrings, ergo, if you destroy the earrings, the fusion is undone.

Why did the original series make such a big deal about Goku and Vegeta staying fused forever if the solution was as simple as destroying the earrings? I know this was likely debated extensively when it happened in Super, but still.

Goku back then was much weaker and did not have God power, so even if he tried to destroy it, there's no proof that he could do it.

The point is, I don't think Kefla contradicts anything in the original series. We don't know if Toriyama wanted her to have a time limit or be permanent... but that is also irrelevant because Kefla defused due to a simpler reason (Goku literally just broke the earrings).

Setting that aside, did Toriyama have a role in adding Kefla to the story and having her defuse? Do we know if that was part of his outline? Because if it was, instead of having Kibitoshin ask for Boo’s help, they could’ve just... destroyed the earrings. Or are we really supposed to believe no one thought of that obvious solution until Kefla?

Kefla was a major antagonist in both the Anime and the Manga, so there's no reason to assume she wasn't in Toriyama's outline.

[tonysoprano300]

[quote=Caulifor post_id=<a href="tel:1790748">1790748</a> time=<a href="tel:1729113353">1729113353</a> user_id=116664]
[quote=SupremeKai25 post_id=<a href="tel:1790744">1790744</a> time=<a href="tel:1729111112">1729111112</a> user_id=121875]
[quote=Caulifor post_id=<a href="tel:1790743">1790743</a> time=<a href="tel:1729110671">1729110671</a> user_id=116664]
Okay, Vegetto wasn't part of Toriyama's outline, but what about Kefla? Do we know if he had any hand in adding her to the Tournament of Power, and making her defuse?

Goku back then was much weaker and did not have God power, so even if he tried to destroy it, there's no proof that he could do it.

we saw Goku and Vegeta crush the Potara in the original series

[SupremeKai25]

[quote=Caulifor post_id=<a href="tel:1790748">1790748</a> time=<a href="tel:1729113353">1729113353</a> user_id=116664]
[quote=SupremeKai25 post_id=<a href="tel:1790744">1790744</a> time=<a href="tel:1729111112">1729111112</a> user_id=121875]
[quote=Caulifor post_id=<a href="tel:1790743">1790743</a> time=<a href="tel:1729110671">1729110671</a> user_id=116664]
Okay, Vegetto wasn't part of Toriyama's outline, but what about Kefla? Do we know if he had any hand in adding her to the Tournament of Power, and making her defuse?

Goku back then was much weaker and did not have God power, so even if he tried to destroy it, there's no proof that he could do it.

we saw Goku and Vegeta crush the Potara in the original series

They're earrings from a different universe. They might be more resistant. Also the earrings might be more resistant when the fusion has been created.

Kefla as a character simply does not contradict anything from the original series. The earrings are the source of the fusion, so if you break the earrings, logically the fusion breaks too.

"Why they never brought up breaking Vegito's earrings" is a moot point. The characters often forget that they can do certain things. Dragon Ball isn't a series where everything is planned ahead and consistent.

For the record, Kefla might have defused simply because she was kicked off from the arena and weird World of Void shenanigans. I just think Toei included that scene of the earring breaking for a reason.

[tonysoprano300]

[quote=Caulifor post_id=<a href="tel:1790748">1790748</a> time=<a href="tel:1729113353">1729113353</a> user_id=116664]
[quote=SupremeKai25 post_id=<a href="tel:1790744">1790744</a> time=<a href="tel:1729111112">1729111112</a> user_id=121875]
[quote=Caulifor post_id=<a href="tel:1790743">1790743</a> time=<a href="tel:1729110671">1729110671</a> user_id=116664]
Okay, Vegetto wasn't part of Toriyama's outline, but what about Kefla? Do we know if he had any hand in adding her to the Tournament of Power, and making her defuse?

Goku back then was much weaker and did not have God power, so even if he tried to destroy it, there's no proof that he could do it.

we saw Goku and Vegeta crush the Potara in the original series

They're earrings from a different universe. They might be more resistant. Also the earrings might be more resistant when the fusion has been created.

Kefla as a character simply does not contradict anything from the original series. The earrings are the source of the fusion, so if you break the earrings, logically the fusion breaks too.

"Why they never brought up breaking Vegito's earrings" is a moot point. The characters often forget that they can do certain things. Dragon Ball isn't a series where everything is planned ahead and consistent.

For the record, Kefla might have defused simply because she was kicked off from the arena and weird World of Void shenanigans. I just think Toei included that scene of the earring breaking for a reason.

Well its not that they forgot, they didn’t even know. The Supreme Kai would be the one that’s retroactively made to look silly as a result, as he seemingly knows nothing about the Potara EarRings given this additional context.

Its also pretty dumb because there was no reason to include it, they were going to defuse anyway once they reached the time limit so what benefit does including that detail even serve?

[Grimlock]

Okay, Vegetto wasn't part of Toriyama's outline, but what about Kefla? Do we know if he had any hand in adding her to the Tournament of Power, and making her defuse?

I would say it is unlikely he had any involvement with Kafla, considering that not even Caulifla was in his plans. He came up with her only because Toei created Kale. But we don't know, it is possible that after creating Caulifla, he himself suggested to have them fuse.

[Luso Saiyan]

Okay, Vegetto wasn't part of Toriyama's outline, but what about Kefla? Do we know if he had any hand in adding her to the Tournament of Power, and making her defuse?

I don't think so. Kale wasn't even a Toriyama creation.

[Caulifor]

"Why they never brought up breaking Vegito's earrings" is a moot point. The characters often forget that they can do certain things. Dragon Ball isn't a series where everything is planned ahead and consistent.

I asked these questions specifically to highlight possible inconsistencies, so just saying 'inconsistencies happen' is what feels like a moot point to me

Some argue that Toriyama wasn’t being inconsistent with his own work because he never added Vegetto and the whole 1-hour limit explanation to his outline of the Goku Black arc. That’s fair if we’re only considering what Toriyama explicitly wrote (though the inconsistency still exists if we treat both Daima and Super as canon). But when we also factor in Kefla, things get a bit more complicated. If Toriyama really introduced the idea that destroying the Potara earrings undoes the fusion, him ignoring that here in Daima does seem like a huge inconsistency in the rules he set up.

Just to clarify, when I say 'inconsistency,' I don’t necessarily mean a plot hole or that Daima and Super can’t coexist in the same continuity. I just mean that the way characters approach Potara fusion rules is inconsistent across these works. We can try to 'technically' make sense of it, but it still feels off.

That said, Daima does seem to be trying to stay consistent with the original manga, and it looks like it doesn’t care much about anything from the Super era onwards. That’s not to say it’s completely ignoring that stuff (Universe 7 is mentioned, after all), but I think it’s going to be pretty loose with any concepts not found in the original work.

Anyway, to answer the OP’s question: I don’t believe the split in Daima is a retcon. In fact, I think it’s sticking closely to the original manga’s continuity. What I do consider a retcon are the Potara rules introduced in Super: the 1-hour time limit and splitting by destroying the earrings. So, in a way, the split in Daima is a retcon of a retcon—a kind of 'de-retcon,' if you will.

I don't think so. Kale wasn't even a Toriyama creation.

If that's the case, then it would become even more clear that any Potara stuff in Super is unrelated to Toriyama's rules for the Potara.

Hell, the question I have now is, do we know if Kibitoshin's presence in Battle of Gods has anything to do with Toriyama?