Cerealians Stronger than the Saiyans?

[Yasai9001]

I think a reasonable interpretation of the term “lowest-level warrior” as used in the Daizenshuu is that Raditz was simply in an inferior class of strength in relation to Nappa and Vegeta.

The term “upper-level” as used in 2018 references Saiyans strong enough as infants to be raised for combat, but does not necessarily indicate higher combat potential in adulthood, as most of Saiyan combatants are probably “upper-level” with a few exceptions (very difficult for a “non-upper-level” to survive), but cannot belong to mid-class simultaneously (being the numbers so small according to Toriyama). By consequence, the “low-class” is where those “upper-level” Saiyans should probably fit. Otherwise, the “mid-class” would probably have the highest number of Saiyans.

I agree that Raditz’s “upper-level” status is a plausible reason to place him with Nappa’s squad, but Raditz being grouped with Nappa could be more circumstantial (Toronbo’s magic) than an indication of superiority over other low-class warriors like Bardock. From my viewpoint, Raditz should be seen as an average Saiyan warrior, likely weaker than several tens of Saiyans from decades before, while Bardock had only about twelve above him in his time.

Whether an average Cerealian could defeat Raditz though is tricky. I mostly agree with Magnificent Ponta in this regard. They probably would need to fire successfully a special attack much stronger than they normally would do, like Piccolo did.

With the Cerealians being smart and tactical, I believe that they could take Raditz on at a safe distance. Raditz, like most villains - if he knew that you were far weaker than him, he couldn't care less about any strategies or tactics unless there was a technique that boosted one's power significantly - I'd argue that Flayk and a group of other Cerealians would be able to take him on just fine. One on one? Doubtful, but depends.

[Grimlock]

Putting it like that makes more sense. I think as time passed on, especially after Bardock's fight with Gas, that Bardock likely got a bit stronger due to constantly fighting. I would say that conquering planets would be training for the Saiyans since they put so much stock in their own innate potential living off itself rather than also putting in the work to break higher ceilings, reaching new levels. Bardock definitely got stronger and I would even argue that he's stronger than Raditz because of how much respect he has amongst the low-class Saiyans already, but there really is no way to be exactly sure. I can see Bardock nearly breaking the 2,000 level or perhaps being around that point around the time he fought against Freeza's men. I say that because this was YEARS prior to the Namek Arc and there, the majority of Freeza's top grunts (that were not mutants like Cui, Zarbon, Dodoria, etc) had laughed at the suppressed warrior Namekians who had power-levels of just 1,000.

I see Bardock definitely being passed the 1,000 level before his death. But no more than 2,500 hundred by the time of it. I do think about exactly how big of a Zenkai boost Bardock may have gotten after his battle with Gas and being shot down by Elec. If left alone, could there have been a chance of him dying like how Zarbon left Vegeta? Or did he just need time to rest? Depending on the answer to these two questions, could be an indication as to how big his boost would have been after the battle.

Now we pretty much have the same thought. That's where I would put Bardock's power level too, somewhere near 2,500. Probably a bit more if Paragus was still a low-class Saiyan with his 4,200. But if he was a mid-class one, then I guess 2,500 is fair, Bardock would be close to get promoted.

Another detail: from the moment Freeza orders Saiyans to get back to the planet until its destruction, there is a one-month timeskip. We don't know what happens in that time, but Bardock obviously isn't sitting around as he gets his armor broken. So there's probably that to consider as well.

It's just sad we can get an official battle-power for Monaito of all people, but we didn't get one for Bardock, smh.

It's kind of annoying indeed.

Ah. Well, thank you very much for coming back to me with this, but that's rather less persuasive than I had anticipated it might be, from the phrasing of your initial post - you had said "Bardock is also referred to be a "upper-class warrior" and was still labeled a "low-class Saiyan"." This led me to think that you perhaps had a source where Bardock is described as "joukyuu senshi (上級戦士)" while he is otherwise consistently described as "kakyuu senshi (下級戦士). But the term for "in the upper ranks" is different; it is jyoui (上位), which isn't necessarily indicative of a formal banding. If you come to the text with that understanding pre-formed, then I guess you can see it that way, but if you don't, it's not apparent to me that there's an obviously compelling reason to do so. It only need mean that Bardock's own position is high among his combatant peers in the low-class. Since the source goes on to say that the way to change class is to notably raise BP, all that needs to mean is that Bardock has more of it than most other low-level warrior combatants, even though he's not so strong that he can join the select few combatants who occupy the next class up.

Well, I'm going to stick to SaiyaJedi's translation. If he deemed okay to use "upper rank" where Toriyama used a different (?) word from what he used in other interviews, then I trust Toriyama wanted to say the same thing, and used a similar/synonymous word. And from that sentence, I get that Bardock belongs to the upper-ranks of the low class and he is close to ascend to the mid class. That's all. You seem to strongly believe in your interpretation, so there's nothing else for me to say. Unless you say these words aren't synonymous and don't mean the same thing at all.

To get back to the Bardock/Raditz thing, any particular reason as to why you seemingly don't like the idea of Bardock being stronger than Raditz?

I agree that Raditz’s “upper-level” status is a plausible reason to place him with Nappa’s squad, but Raditz being grouped with Nappa could be more circumstantial (Toronbo’s magic) than an indication of superiority over other low-class warriors like Bardock

Yeah, once we all finally agree that "upper-level" is a subdivision of the low class, then it means any Saiyan belonging to the upper-level could be part of Nappa's team. That, along with the idea that there aren't many upper-level Saiyans that can't or don't want to fight (we have no reason to assume otherwise), makes Raditz and that he joined such team not as impressive as some people make it seem.

And as you said, there's also Bardock's wish to take into consideration. He was fated to join that squad because it was the only way he would "thrive", as Bardock put it. Again, not impressive (see folks? It isn't just Goku a fated child, you can all stop complaining about it!). Probably the best thing is that Vegeta acknowledges all of this.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Well, I'm going to stick to SaiyaJedi's translation. If he deemed okay to use "upper rank" where Toriyama used a different (?) word from what he used in other interviews, then I trust Toriyama wanted to say the same thing, and used a similar/synonymous word. And from that sentence, I get that Bardock belongs to the upper-ranks of the low class and he is close to ascend to the mid class. That's all. You seem to strongly believe in your interpretation, so there's nothing else for me to say. Unless you say these words aren't synonymous and don't mean the same thing at all.

No, I'd never presume to even imply that there's anything wrong with SaiyaJedi's translation here - for one thing, he's fluent in Japanese and my level (though I'm doing my best to learn) is still quite basic. My point is not that there's something to question about his rendering, here; "in the upper ranks" seems to be just fine. My point is rather twofold, and as follows:

(a) the usage of "(upper) ranking" as a term in the source language and the target language is simply semantically broader than you're treating it - Here's some sample dictionary sentences using "jyoui". Some of them (like the presentation of grades in a banded/grouped way) serve your interpretation quite well. Others (like countries being ranked in survey results) do not, and seem to serve my interpretation rather better. Some are generally ambiguous. (And some are just irrelevant because the word also has a technical computer-related usage, but anyway). This is also true in English. You can "rank" as a Master Sergeant, which is a high-level formal banding. You can also individually be "high-ranking" in your school class for test results, or a sports team can "rank" top of their league, which is not necessarily related to any kind of sub-grouping. So while you could approach the text assuming we're talking about (if you like) 'Master Sergeant Bardock' (among the most senior Noncommissioned Officer ranks, or something analogous), reading it as Bardock ranking individually highly, near the top among a broader group (in this case, the Lower-Class) without further specification also seems natural enough from the rendering given and its context anyway, without any obvious need to be as tightly prescriptive as you're being.

(b) Even if we agreed, for the sake of argument, that the 2014 Q&A is actually talking about a formal kind of high ranking that Bardock has (and it's likely that Saiyan combatants, at least, do have militaryish-ranks, since we have a "Colonel" Paragus in the mix in Broly - though the idea that such a ranking system would also cover non-combatants so it would match your schema is more questionable), that still doesn't justify assuming that the 2018 Q&A is therefore talking about the ranking of all Lower-class Saiyans only when it doesn't actually say as much, or give us any overt reason to make that reading in the first place; that understanding has to be supplied to the text, un-prompted. My issue with that isn't even really a matter of whether or not it's appropriate to take two different terms as synonymous (synonyms do, after all, exist) - this is more a question of making assumptions in approaching a text before it has even said anything, and finding that it says the thing you already assumed. I personally consider that to be a questionable interpretative strategy.

But as you say, no doubt you are strongly attached to your own interpretation, so I'm happy to move on also.

To get back to the Bardock/Raditz thing, any particular reason as to why you seemingly don't like the idea of Bardock being stronger than Raditz?

I have said on multiple occasions in this topic that I have no problem with that idea at all. He may well be (and certainly is, once we stop talking about his Baseline BP exclusively). What I have a problem with, is that people seem to believe it's absolutely unthinkable that the reverse might instead be true, and that is quite a different thing. That's all.

[Hugo Boss]

(b) Even if we agreed, for the sake of argument, that the 2014 Q&A is actually talking about a formal kind of high ranking that Bardock has (and it's likely that Saiyan combatants, at least, do have militaryish-ranks, since we have a "Colonel" Paragus in the mix in Broly - though the idea that such a ranking system would also cover non-combatants so it would match your schema is more questionable), that still doesn't justify assuming that the 2018 Q&A is therefore talking about the ranking of all Lower-class Saiyans only when it doesn't actually say as much, or give us any overt reason to make that reading in the first place; that understanding has to be supplied to the text, un-prompted. My issue with that isn't even really a matter of whether or not it's appropriate to take two different terms as synonymous (synonyms do, after all, exist) - this is more a question of making assumptions in approaching a text before it has even said anything, and finding that it says the thing you already assumed. I personally consider that to be a questionable interpretative strategy.

I think the key argument is that, considering the very few Saiyan individuals that belong to mid-class and elite-class, you kinda have to assume the “upper-level” is not limited to them. The text doesn’t explicitly makes that distinction, but does offer contextual meaning to “upper-level”. Being most Saiyan combatants low-classes and upper-levels simultaneously, you connect the dots.

[Grimlock]

I have said on multiple occasions in this topic that I have no problem with that idea at all. He may well be (and certainly is, once we stop talking about his Baseline BP exclusively). What I have a problem with, is that people seem to believe it's absolutely unthinkable that the reverse might instead be true, and that is quite a different thing. That's all.

Oh okay. Then I imagine none of us have a problem with Bardock being weaker than Raditz, it's just that Saibaiman prevents that idea. Like I said, either Raditz should have been stronger or Saibaiman should have been weaker, but with their power levels being so close to one another, there's no place to insert Bardock somewhere in there.

But then again, seeing as people relish on the very strange idea that Bardock should be a nobody (which his status as the father of the protagonist completely abolish it), I wouldn't be surprised if people wouldn't have a problem with him having a power level of 1,200 or lower, putting him on Yamcha's "levels of stupid", as Kaboom would say it.

[Hulk10]

I agree with much of your analysis about the Saiyans specifically (e.g., I agree that we're generally looking at high hundreds for Low-Class Saiyan BP, more often than not), but I don't think I really share your conclusions about the Cerealians. I think that, special attacks aside, their BPs probably range in the low hundreds.

Flayk's special attack that grazes Oozaru Leek and destroys Planet Cereal's Moon is much, much stronger than Flayk himself normally is - when Granolah uses the same attack to take out Gas in 超#86, he gathers more ki than he normally has in order to do it (Gas has already demonstrated that he is much stronger than Granolah by that point, but is shocked at how much power Granolah has gathered in the attack, and it briefly knocks him out). Moreover, the fact that it does wound Oozaru Leek doesn't mean so much when considering an exhausted Goku takes out Oozaru Vegeta's eye with the very last of his power - the power differential between exhausted Goku and Oozaru Vegeta is almost certainly greater than that between Flayk (especially with a super-powered-up special attack) and Oozaru Leek. Sometimes an unguarded hit just leaves a mark. Bardock also gets a deep scratch on his arm when Muezli attacks him, but there's no sign that she would have been serious competition for him simply because she was able to give him a superficial injury - he just didn't (bother to) defend himself.

More importantly, Taro when de-transformed kills Flayk in one shot anyway, and then the rest mop up the remaining Cerealians without obvious trouble. You can say it's because they're tired I guess, but given the Cerealians have brief hope of victory before they're quickly disabused of the idea, it seems they didn't consider tiredness to be much of a factor there. The Saiyans are just too strong anyway. I don't think the incursion would have been particularly competitive if the Saiyans hadn't been transformed - it's probable that they might well have taken a few more serious casualties if people like Flayk were firing off unusual moves like that at them, and it would very likely have taken longer than a single evening to subdue the population and conquer the planet, but there's no real sign that the outcome would have been in doubt such that they'd've needed stronger backup than what they already brought to the battle.

I agree with you about the Cerealians.

[Mystic-han]

Sometimes I do wonder if people actually have read what they see

The answer is no , the Saiyan easily slaughtered the Cerealians in their base forms

[Yasai9001]

Sometimes I do wonder if people actually have read what they see

The answer is no , the Saiyan easily slaughtered the Cerealians in their base forms

After the Ceralians were being injured, and used up all of their energy fighting giant apes before they destroyed the moon. Granted, the average Saiyan is more than likely a definite superior species to the Cerealians, even excluding their Oozaru forms, but the fact that one of them was able to render a scar on Leek (Bardock's partner) while he was transformed says a lot.

They were already tired and many of them killed by the point Taro dealt a finishing blow in his base form, anyhow.

[dbs fanboy]

No, they got slaughtered by them if they were any stronger they would have survived.

Saying Ozaru transformations is a cheat code is like saying Cerealians eyesight is cheating too!

Sorry but it's just their biology, and we know they could still transform without the moon just like Vegeta did!

[Yasai9001]

No, they got slaughtered by them if they were any stronger they would have survived.

Saying Ozaru transformations is a cheat code is like saying Cerealians eyesight is cheating too!

Sorry but it's just their biology, and we know they could still transform without the moon just like Vegeta did!

Fair assessment. Had the Saiyans not transformed, then The Cerealians would have gave them a run for their money - that alone has to be the reason why squads of Saiyans attacked at once alongside Freeza's forces.