Did Dragon Ball inspire the misconception that shounen is a genre?

[Majin Buu]

For the past decade now I've personally been big on making sure I know my shit on anything I speak to people about because I don't want to spread wrong information if I can help it; so for me, this is about doing my part to curb the further spread of deep-seated misinformation about something I enjoy. It's not about "lording" knowledge over people.

And frankly, these efforts have to start somewhere. If you carry yourself like this here, you're likely to carry yourself like that in the real world where information/misinformation matters way more.

[GhostEmperorX]

For the past decade now I've personally been big on making sure I know my shit on anything I speak to people about because I don't want to spread wrong information if I can help it; so for me, this is about doing my part to curb the further spread of deep-seated misinformation about something I enjoy. It's not about "lording" knowledge over people.

And frankly, these efforts have to start somewhere. If you carry yourself like this here, you're likely to carry yourself like that in the real world where information/misinformation matters way more.

This has more or less been my own approach since 2020, as I found an entire world I'd been heretofore completely unaware of. I'm also a lot more careful to demand official documentations of whatever factoid may be spreading through circles like this on the net.

See what I wrote above at the very start of this post: this is Kanzenshuu we’re all speaking here on. This is THE place to be as painstakingly accurate and slavish to fact with regards to something as inane and ridiculous as Dragon Ball.

We’re not on a forum about economics or social sciences here guys (even if more and more increasingly in recent years, stuff like that comes up around here more): this is THE grand emperor of all Dragon Ball Nerdshit forums.

This site was created for the express purpose of sorting out Dragon Ball Fact from Dragon Ball Bullshit Fanwankery (in a non-douchey, fun way of course). It has few other purposes beyond that, any of which are very much generally secondary to it.

So to that end, seeing as how that’s this site’s whole reason for existing, and literally what its founder/creator dumped almost 30 years of his life into building in all the myriad of ways I just outlined above… yes, forgive me for finding it IMMENSELY comical and absurd that THIS SITE of ALL sites could go THIS long, THIS many years not getting correct something as basic as DB’s genre.

And thinking that its target demographic is its genre is just the cherry/icing on top.

I understand, it was more so a remark on my own personal experience from about 2020 till now where I came upon a whole bunch of different information in a really short time and engaged in one discussion or the other about it on the net, before finding some additional info that further upended what I used to think (i.e. Toei never really caring about the direct-to-video market or enthusiasts due to being a casual-oriented company, would like to go into that in some detail another time). I sometimes went overboard on one thing or the other myself.

And concerning my mention of this site, it was to highlight that, as you would most likely agree, there's still certainly room for improvement in one area or the other as far as what I've found editing places that hold themselves to a really high standard for the information they present, straight from whatever official sources may exist (especially as it concerns Japanese content like DB).
I generally do value the info that you and the site have provided thus far for sure, it's not something you find commonly out there.

To add to your point though, the writings of Derek Padula have been more than a bit popular on here too, and he's done more than a few deep dives into the background and inspiration of Dragon Ball, so that's even another avenue to touch on its true genre.

[LoganForkHands73]

Look. I used to be one of those people who'd get all pedantic and correct people about Dragon Ball's genre at every opportunity. I think the most important thing is education, both on how much more diverse shonen (and all other demographic categories) manga can be beyond the typical action mould westerners are most often exposed to, and the ancient origins of the tropes present in Dragon Ball and its countless derivatives.

I’m not advocating to do anything within lightyears of “getting pedantic and correcting people at every opportunity” about this topic: nor for that matter, about ANY topic this trivial in general.

I feel like this should be etched onto my tombstone at this point, given how many times I’ve had to say this throughout my life: but context is everything.

Right now, we’re on a forum dedicated to a 40+ year old children’s martial arts comic/cartoon. One that also does not have an “off-topic” section, nor does it generally (within reason) encourage off-topic convos. Everything discussed here, generally speaking, is centered primarily around all things Dragon Ball. With a particularly huge, huge emphasis on its history to boot.

Not only that, but its a forum for a website and community where a very, very large portion of its entire purpose, a large portion of its entire reason for existing in general is and has been correcting misinformation about this particular comic/cartoon, since its one that has been subject to gobs and gobs of misinformation throughout almost nearly its entire existence in the Western world (much more so once it was first officially licensed).

Do I think anyone here (or anyone in general otherwise) should be going out into the streets, getting into people’s faces and getting aggressively exact about anything to do with Dragon Ball, or anime in general?

Of fucking course not. That’s beyond idiotic and ludicrous.

If we're talking about the importance of context, I thought it would've been clear that I'm not some psychopath proselytising this to randos in the street, or anyone IRL for that matter, I'm talking only online spaces dedicated to media discussion.

I say all this essentially to remind you all: we’re all talking here on freaking Kanzenshuu. If the nature of the discourse here strikes one as being absurdly, pedantically slavish to accuracy about a topic as inherently inane and idiotic as Dragon Ball… well yeah! No shit!

I think you've missed the forest for the trees on this. I know all too well that Kanzenshuu is the place to be if you want to be pedantic about Dragon Ball. Like you and probably many people here, I don't advertise my slightly embarrassing hyperfixations to most people I know.

There's all manner of topics and minutiae discussed here that doesn't really interest me in the slightest. I don't care about the fuckin Transylvanian dub of the second Cooler movie, or the poor quality physical releases. People are obviously free to talk about that sort of thing, but I'm not interested in engaging with it.

So why am I here, talking about this particular thing I seemingly don't care about? Because I once did care quite strongly about it, but I've since become bored/disillusioned with the topic.

Whether here or any other site, my attempts to discuss it have rarely if been fun or productive at all. I think it boils down to the fact that "genre" is such a fluid and subjective thing. It's not clearly, "objectively" defined in the same way as so many other common topics on this site, which can (or can't) be backed up with verifiable facts. Most people aren't equipped to discuss it on that level - and I'm not saying they don't have the mental ability, just that they don't expect to approach a manga/anime franchise in this way - or they simply don't care.

More people are at least on a similar page, even if they're skimming through the rest of the book, so to speak. Fans are at least aware of Dragon Ball's connections to Journey to the West and Hong Kong martial arts movies, for some basic examples. That's partly down to the fact that Toriyama has explicitly gone on record talking about these influences, and it falls closer to the "objective" wheelhouse I was talking about.

All that is to say, I'd love to keep banging the same drum about genre until the cows come home, but I just wasn't getting the same level of fulfilment (or humour/entertainment, in your case) out of it. Would you advocate for the main Kanzenshuu site or wiki to acknowledge the wuxia topic?

FYI, I've long accepted that this is just how you communicate. I don't assume any extreme rage or passion from you on the topic.

Really the only thing that’s ever stopped me from creating a whole entire thread about all the myriad of awesome, fascinating things outside of kids’ media that so many people on this forum could get so much out of checking out since like, years and YEARS ago now, is the simple fact that this forum doesn’t have an Off-Topic section, nor does it generally allow (much) off-topic discourse here.

Its all Dragon Ball all the time here, so I’m constrained when I’m here to stick to Dragon Ball as much as humanly possible. And even then, I’ve STILL managed to slip a few bits of “here’s something else to check out that isn’t Shonen” in here and there whenever I could.

I'd bloody love an off-topic section so much... Indeed, many of the threads that stray far from Dragon Ball (or at least get very intertextual) are ironically the most interesting.

I get that the purity of the site's focus has to be maintained, but I think something as broad and mainstream as Dragon Ball makes for a good starting point/common denominator for people before topics branch out from there.

I can add some further perspective to this, if you don’t mind:

I did appreciate that read, thanks for sharing. I'm sorry you had to deal with all that, the private healthcare system is truly fucked.

Out of interest, in this particular cycle of socio-political turmoil caused by greedy warmongering bastards, have you noticed any change in how people on forums like these address issues outside of the Neverland bubble? I feel like people are slightly less willing to bury their heads in the sand, based on my experience here, but I can imagine it's not the same everywhere. Some of those anecdotes from back in the day though... the 9/11 and shoelace tying ones, yikes...

When I look back at mid-2000s nerd culture, and how much rampant misogyny, bigotry and closed-minded ignorance I'd often see all over the internet, it seems like those kinds of people were already halfway radicalised.

Art’s a funny thing: its simultaneously completely trivial, meaningless, and unimportant, and at the same time incredibly, astronomically meaningful and one of the key things that makes life and humanity as a whole so enriching and beautiful and worthwhile. Simultaneously, it can be and has also been at times used to harm and has helped push along horrific ends.

Oh believe me, I've never been one to downplay the importance of art in society. Above all else, this topic has basically been my true "hyperfixation" since I was young, especially the stuff that really straddles the lines of propaganda and good taste. It's fascinating how narrative tools can so easily influence people.

It's like Alan Moore said, writers once held the true power in society, even more than shamans and magicians back in more superstitious times. A curse or hex is negligible. A well-written piece of satire can ruin your reputation in your own lifetime, and possibly many centuries after that. That power now lies in the hands of media corporations, advertisers, and everyday propagandists (i.e. alt-right memers) with more range and influence than people a few hundred years ago could ever dream of.

[Kamiccolo9]

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Incidentally, Kamiccolo9 is one of the most awesome folks I’ve met on here who has gotten to know me (and I him) a ton off the forums, and honestly its probably been a good many years since he and I have spoken a single word about Dragon Ball (or anime) between us whenever we’ve spoken off this site.

"Dragon's...balls?" You mean some poor dragon...!?

[Metalwario64]

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Incidentally, Kamiccolo9 is one of the most awesome folks I’ve met on here who has gotten to know me (and I him) a ton off the forums, and honestly its probably been a good many years since he and I have spoken a single word about Dragon Ball (or anime) between us whenever we’ve spoken off this site.

"Dragon's...balls?" You mean some poor dragon...!?

My Dad used to joke and call it "Dragon's Balls", asking how they got away with such a crass name. lol