Everyone just collectively forgot about Daima's first 18 episodes.

[MasenkoHA]

Daima really doesn’t feel like it fits in with Super at all.

I’ve been saying that it’s best to view Daima as its own separate timeline.

I never understood why fans have been so obsessed with Daima fitting in with Super. Back in the day, the majority of Z's movies didn't fit within the main story line, yet no one complained about. Fusion Reborn is one of the most beloved of the old movies, despite it not fitting anywhere.

Oh, I really don’t care. I just found it odd that fitting with Super was even a consideration since it just doesn’t and that’s okay. Super ignored GT and Daima can ignore Super. Although I agree with Witty it was probably an oversight by Toriyama, rather than an intentional kicking Super out the door.

At the end of the day I don’t really regard any of Z’s three “sequels” as anything but side stories. They definitely don’t exist in my mind when watching Dragon Ball 86 and Z or reading the manga.


I wouldn’t say fans didn’t complain about the movies not fitting as much as they tried to force them into continuity. Like it was (still is?) really common for fans to insist Z movie 6-8 to take place during the wait for the Cell Games, despite that only kinda working for the Broli movie and even then only if you squint and ignore a few things.

The hyper obsession with “canon” and “ it needs to fit to have value “ mindset has existed for a while, unfortunately.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Oh, I really don’t care.

I know; I was speaking about fans in general.

I don’t really regard any of Z’s three “sequels” as anything but side stories. They definitely don’t exist in my mind when watching Dragon Ball 86 and Z or reading the manga.

I would say Battle of Gods and Daima came the closest to capturing the magic of DB & Z, despite falling short in certain areas. Out of the countless stories we've gotten since the Buu arc, these two feel like something Toriyama would've written back then had he continued the manga for a bit longer.

The hyper obsession with “canon” and “ it needs to fit to have value “ mindset has existed for a while, unfortunately.

There are many fans, including on this very site, who judge a work solely based on it being "canon" or not.

[SupremeKai25]

Hardly surprising.

From what I have seen, the reaction to Daima from the very beginning has been mild at best. Lots of people wishing that it was Season 2 of Super instead, and not many people hyped for another "Kid Goku whimsical adventure."

Considering how Daima was imagined as a love letter to Millennial/1990s GT fans, well... you know... GT isn't exactly the most popular product when it comes to Dragon Ball. GT gets a lot of flak for turning Goku into a kid. Not sure why Daima wouldn't get flak for doing the same thing.

I will say this: 90% of the internet theories I've found about Daima are focused on Super, lmao, and how Daima new concepts connect to Super. The Daima subreddit was literally filled with threads about Super and continuity during the last few episodes, and we all know why.

To me, this is the most damning piece of evidence that Daima couldn't escape from being in Super's shadow.

[Dr. Casey]

I don't mind Dragon Ball GT turning Goku into a kid. I think the first SSJ4 transformation should have been where he permanently returns to adulthood, but the childhood transformation was a reasonably interesting premise and motivation. I just didn't enjoy GT because it's not really that... uh... enjoyable. It had its heart in the right place in a few respects. I liked the character development (Vegeta being fully domesticated, open about being the second strongest Saiyan) and how the story continues the lonely but poignant trend of people who were prominent in the past being long gone, with basically every old character except Goku, Trunks, and Pan (Pan barely counting given her 28th Budokai debut) either completely absent or appearing in less than five episodes. But ultimately it's just kind of a boring show and the vibe and aesthetic and atmosphere feel kind of weird, gross, cold, and metallic. Not really something I can articulate, I just never liked the feel of the show.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Lots of people wishing that it was Season 2 of Super instead, and not many people hyped for another "Kid Goku whimsical adventure."

They basically sent Daima out to die by releasing it before animating the Moro and Granola arcs. Prequels are hard enough to sell under good conditions, but trying to do so while the main story was still incomplete ? that was never going to work. I'm personally happy Daima came along when it did, as I prefer it to Super, but I don't think I'm in the majority in saying that.

GT gets a lot of flak for turning Goku into a kid. Not sure why Daima wouldn't get flak for doing the same thing.

Although I think Daima did a far better job at it than GT did, they should've been turned back into adults half way through to generate more hype for the show.

I think the first SSJ4 transformation should have been where he permanently returns to adulthood.

Same here. It wouldn't have fixed any of the story issues, but the image of an adult Goku being present would've helped somewhat.

I just didn't enjoy GT because it's not really that... uh... enjoyable. It had its heart in the right place in a few respects. But ultimately it's just kind of a boring show.

GT will always have a special place in my heart for the things it got right, the problem is that it got double the number of things wrong along the way. How could a sequel to one of the most popular fighting shows not have a single memorable fight ? We had to wait 30 years for Daima to give Ssj4, what GT's known for, an actual memorable fight. Then there was the terrible lack of involvement from the secondary characters. Goku literally had to do EVERYTHING; they wouldn't let anyone else do anything. Would it have been so bad to let Vegeta kill ONE shadow dragon ? or have Piccolo fight Cell and Freeza alongside Goku in hell ? or let Gohan do anything ? or let Gotenks make an appearance ? or let Pan use Ssj ? Remember Uub ? neither do I.

[tonysoprano300]

In GT and Daima, Goku being a kid seems to be in service of the idea that he has grown too powerful and that he needs to be nerfed in order to tell a more adventurous story rather than the more dramatized and action focused ones they've done for so long. If Goku can just overcome all the challenges without trouble then thats no fun.

That said, idk why they seem to think Kid bodies in DB are weaker than Adult bodies. That's never been true, the Boo arc removed any doubt about that. I guess they probably just didn't think about it too much or decided that its not a big deal to contradict that.

I think both series struggle to do anything with the concept anyway, particularly Daima which never used Goku's rejuvenation as a way to stop him from breaking everything if he wanted. He can still go all the way to SSJ4, he can still use instant transmission, he can still fight as well as he always does etc. It gives the impression that he's just having fun and can really trivialize every hurdle whenever he wants. And anything outside of that is just him taking things easy like how Android 17&18 decided to drive to Goku's house instead of just flying there in Cell Saga.

GT had similar problems but at least there were certain things he just couldn't do like IT, or hold SSJ3 for a meaningful period of time. Doesn't make a big difference in my opinion though.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

idk why they seem to think Kid bodies in DB are weaker than Adult bodies. That's never been true, the Boo arc removed any doubt about that. I guess they probably just didn't think about it too much or decided that its not a big deal to contradict that.

The idea was that they wouldn't be used to using their child bodies, resulting in more difficulties overcoming challenges. Both GT and Daima toyed with this at first, but dropped the idea as time went on.

[JulieYBM]

I found it so exhausting that they didn't really commit to having the characters turned into children have to grapple with their weaknesses too much. Like, Gokuu doesn't and friends don't hit barriers, they don't innovate much in the way of any memorable strategies in their battles, either. It definitely makes sense to have them hit a point where their bodies adapt to the atmosphere, but the number of battles where they breeze through grunts really just deflated any tension there could have been.

[Mr Baggins]

The idea was that they wouldn't be used to using their child bodies, resulting in more difficulties overcoming challenges. Both GT and Daima toyed with this at first, but dropped the idea as time went on.

Daima doesn't drop this idea at any point, though. Goku and Vegeta comment on fights being more challenging with their kid bodies as late as the series' climax, not to mention the final two episodes distinctly go out of their way to show the improvement in their performance after they get their adult bodies back.

People can complain all they want about the kid Saiyans not coming up with more "creative" workarounds for their nerfed states, but that's just an obfuscation of what that plot point was going for from the start, which is much closer to what Kajika was doing with its own very similar plot point.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Daima doesn't drop this idea at any point, though. Goku and Vegeta comment on fights being more challenging with their kid bodies as late as the series' climax, not to mention the final two episodes distinctly go out of their way to show the improvement in their performance after they get their adult bodies back.

Daima definitely did a better job at it than GT did, but Goku and Vegeta were still very powerful as kids despite that. They may not have been as powerful as they were as adults, but both still had access to their strongest forms for example. They both dominated the Tamagami they fought, and would've likely wrecked the Majin brothers had Gomah not shown up. Being weaker doesn't mean much when they're still by far the strongest in the Demon Realm. One way to show just how difficult it was to fight as children would've been to limit their access to Ssj1 only, with Ssj2 being accessed in limited bursts in extreme circumstances. Ssj3 and especially Ssj4 should've been off the table until they got their adult bodies back.

[Mr Baggins]

They both dominated the Tamagami they fought, and would've likely wrecked the Majin brothers had Gomah not shown up.

"Dominate" is a strong word. "Eventually dominate" is a better one.

I'll go even further and contend that "having access to their strongest forms" is equally as strong a phrase, given the slow gradation at which they were triggering those forms as well as kid Goku explicitly needing assistance for Super Saiyan 4. TBT, Goku has the party assisting him for most of Daima's runtime.

Again, this is all best exemplified in some of Toriyama's non-DB stories with similar devices. The so-called nerfing on display here isn't conveying tired absolutes like making the protagonists super weak or the antagonists super strong; rather, the goal is to show what the group has to go through collectively. It's the difference between Goku (or Kajika, or Beelzebub) being the strongest guy around and the same character being so strong that the story is already over before it gets a chance to get off the ground.

The decision to make them children was probably more closely an attempt to balance the scales because of Daima's timeline placement than anything proposed in this thread.

[LoganForkHands73]

But ultimately it's just kind of a boring show and the vibe and aesthetic and atmosphere feel kind of weird, gross, cold, and metallic. Not really something I can articulate, I just never liked the feel of the show.

GT's vibe being completely off is why it's so off-putting to actually sit through. The show's colour palette is very weird; everything has that washed-out alpenglow look (like the reddish tinge of a late afternoon in winter). Sounds very poetic, but it's not nice to look at, especially combined with the often ugly character designs and boring animation. More than any other instalment, it feels like a low-budget Saturday morning cartoon.

As for Daima, there were plenty of things I enjoyed about it while it was running, I loved the new periphery characters most of all, but it left little lasting impact and I find myself in no rush to rewatch it. It sadly proves that a wet fart of an ending really can affect the long term appreciation of a series. King Kuu forming his little nepotistic committee was a nice note to end on, but Goku and the gang just going on their merry way with nothing lost or gained severely diminished the whole journey in my eyes. It only contributed to the overriding sense that this story was not greatly benefitted by the existing Dragon Ball characters' presence as protagonists.

Normally, I'm a pretty solitary viewer who doesn't rely on others to gain enjoyment from something. However, a super mainstream franchise like Dragon Ball does to some extent benefit from a shared viewing experience (partly because, without sounding cocky, it's not exactly the most intellectually stimulating show without that extra level of engagement), and the widespread apathy for it did dampen the experience and aftertaste somewhat.

[Metalwario64]

Well the red color cast was just an issue with the Dragon Boxes (and the singles, which were based on that footage), not a conscious color palette choice in and of itself.

[super michael]

I enjoyed Daima for its adventure in Demon World and the new characters introduced. I enjoyed the comedy that it has.
Then the battle was enjoyable, seeing the characters getting used to being kids again, which made their limbs shorter. Seeing Vegeta gain SSJ3 and Goku gain SSJ4 was good.

I enjoyed the story of Dragon Ball Daima, if I have to say something negative, that would be the plane getting destroyed a lot.

I prefer Dragon Ball Daima over Dragon Ball Super anime.

[tonysoprano300]

I found it so exhausting that they didn't really commit to having the characters turned into children have to grapple with their weaknesses too much. Like, Gokuu doesn't and friends don't hit barriers, they don't innovate much in the way of any memorable strategies in their battles, either. It definitely makes sense to have them hit a point where their bodies adapt to the atmosphere, but the number of battles where they breeze through grunts really just deflated any tension there could have been.

I found it so exhausting that they didn't really commit to having the characters turned into children have to grapple with their weaknesses too much. Like, Gokuu doesn't and friends don't hit barriers, they don't innovate much in the way of any memorable strategies in their battles, either. It definitely makes sense to have them hit a point where their bodies adapt to the atmosphere, but the number of battles where they breeze through grunts really just deflated any tension there could have been.

The thing about not being used to their kid bodies is tolerable, I think if someone wanted they could argue that even that isn’t really consistent with what’s previously established but personally I don’t care too much. I was actually pretty invested in the beginning despite all that

I would agree that nothing is done with the concept, in GT specifically, there were times where Goku being in a kids body presented real limitations and barriers. Arguably it stopped him from being able to save Piccolo and it directly led to the horrible beat down he got from Baby. It also justified the necessity of a space ship. Not enough was done with it but we did get some things that at least impacted the story in a substantial way.

In Daima, its inconsequential by episode 10. Goku can do everything he could before, he may as well have been an adult. He’s just choosing not to.

I feel like part of the early DB charm was that Goku was focused on his objectives, if he could use Kinotun then he would. When it got destroyed in the RR arc, he travelled by plane and foot because those were the best options he could think of. It was still very silly and light hearted until his encounter with Tao, despite the fact that Goku himself didn’t intentionally treat things that way.

[JulieYBM]

I found it so exhausting that they didn't really commit to having the characters turned into children have to grapple with their weaknesses too much. Like, Gokuu doesn't and friends don't hit barriers, they don't innovate much in the way of any memorable strategies in their battles, either. It definitely makes sense to have them hit a point where their bodies adapt to the atmosphere, but the number of battles where they breeze through grunts really just deflated any tension there could have been.

I found it so exhausting that they didn't really commit to having the characters turned into children have to grapple with their weaknesses too much. Like, Gokuu doesn't and friends don't hit barriers, they don't innovate much in the way of any memorable strategies in their battles, either. It definitely makes sense to have them hit a point where their bodies adapt to the atmosphere, but the number of battles where they breeze through grunts really just deflated any tension there could have been.

The thing about not being used to their kid bodies is tolerable, I think if someone wanted they could argue that even that isn’t really consistent with what’s previously established but personally I don’t care too much. I was actually pretty invested in the beginning despite all that

I would agree that nothing is done with the concept, in GT specifically, there were times where Goku being in a kids body presented real limitations and barriers. Arguably it stopped him from being able to save Piccolo and it directly led to the horrible beat down he got from Baby. It also justified the necessity of a space ship. Not enough was done with it but we did get some things that at least impacted the story in a substantial way.

In Daima, its inconsequential by episode 10. Goku can do everything he could before, he may as well have been an adult. He’s just choosing not to.

I feel like part of the early DB charm was that Goku was focused on his objectives, if he could use Kinotun then he would. When it got destroyed in the RR arc, he travelled by plane and foot because those were the best options he could think of. It was still very silly and light hearted until his encounter with Tao, despite the fact that Goku himself didn’t intentionally treat things that way.

Yeah, that’s the thing. It wouldn't have been difficult to have Gokuu and friends remain at a disadvantage or face adversity throughout the story. Have the characters fail, regroup, and learn from their mistakes. There's a lot you can do in twenty episodes.

Like, Gomah and Degesu just stop having thoughts and feelings in those last few episodes, too. It's boring and disheartening, given how much fun they were early on. They could have evolved, but instead there is nothing to chew on.

Like you said, Dragon Ball GT at least had Gokuu fail to save Piccolo and that stuck. Give us more of that!

[Zephyr]

The fandom collectively forgetting about Daima's first 18 episodes is a clever reference to the characters themselves forgetting those episodes. This is why everyone was amazed to see Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta and Super Saiyan 4 Goku again, despite actually having already seen them.

[JulieYBM]

I'm not going to lie, this thread just makes me want to continue my rewatch of the Tournament of Power arc, which I had a lot of fun doing a few weeks ago.

God, I wish it had the production schedule, character designs and animators that Daima had.