What's Canon ? We Finally Have an Answer

[SupremeKai25]

- Super has 131 episodes and 2 movies.

- GT has 64 episodes and 1 movie.

- Daima has 20 episodes.

I mean, ultimately, Super has way more content than the other two series put together. Toyotaro can say whatever he wants, but I'd say it's pretty obvious Super will continue to be held in higher regard.

Super is a great example of how quantity does not in any way, shape, or for, equal quality.

I agree, which is why I think Super is a better series simply because two of its arcs are top tier. Since I believe quality trumps everything else, I don't really care if there's 100 bad episodes, as long as I get absolute enjoyment from 30. Which, well, I did from Super, while I didn't from Daima and GT. So that makes the choice rather simple for me.

Quality > Quantity, remember?

But that also wasn't the point of my post. If you're a new fan, you don't know the first 40 episodes of Super will be a slog to get through.

But if you're so curious, from what I've seen on Youtube and Reddit, most new fans just watch the DBZ movies and skip straight to the Universe 6 saga, which is honestly how Super should be approached.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I don't think this changes anything. New content will continue from where Super Hero left off, and the vast majority of internet discourse will continue to look at Super as the natural continuation of the Buu saga, since it has more content and is more popular than the other series.

Now let's look at some facts:

- Super has 131 episodes and 2 movies (let's ignore BoG and RoF since they are DBZ-branded and they are retold in the anime anyway).

- GT has 64 episodes and 1 movie.

- Daima has 20 episodes.

Now let's suppose: If you are a new fan who just finished watching the original series and knows NOTHING about what happens after the Buu saga, which series are you more likely to watch first and consider "more important" than the others?

I mean, ultimately, Super has way more content than the other two series put together. Toyotaro can say whatever he wants, but I'd say it's pretty obvious Super will continue to be held in higher regard.

Not to be "that guy" but the GT special is not a movie.

[SupremeKai25]

I don't think this changes anything. New content will continue from where Super Hero left off, and the vast majority of internet discourse will continue to look at Super as the natural continuation of the Buu saga, since it has more content and is more popular than the other series.

Now let's look at some facts:

- Super has 131 episodes and 2 movies (let's ignore BoG and RoF since they are DBZ-branded and they are retold in the anime anyway).

- GT has 64 episodes and 1 movie.

- Daima has 20 episodes.

Now let's suppose: If you are a new fan who just finished watching the original series and knows NOTHING about what happens after the Buu saga, which series are you more likely to watch first and consider "more important" than the others?

I mean, ultimately, Super has way more content than the other two series put together. Toyotaro can say whatever he wants, but I'd say it's pretty obvious Super will continue to be held in higher regard.

Not to be "that guy" but the GT special is not a movie.

That's certainly the case. It's a post-epilogue special that requires having watched GT before.

One underrated aspect of Super movies, which might be part of the reason why they're so popular, is that they can be watched BEFORE delving into a long anime (131 episodes is a lot), making Super an easy series to approach by a new fan.

Actually, Super might be one of the easiest series in existence to approach for a new fan. If you're a new fan, you can watch Broly and Super Hero first without feeling lost or confused. Freeza's revival is explained right at the very beginning of the movie and references to past content are minimal (namely Goku remembering Jiren and Kefla for one moment). These movies are very well made in terms of spectacle and engagement. They are quick to digest and get right into the action, unlike a 131 episodes anime, which will obviously have a slower build-up.

The beauty of Super is that its story arcs are largely self-contained, meaning that the anime arcs have very little to do with Broly or the new Red Ribbon Army, and conversely, the movies have very little to do with Universe 6, Future Trunks' world, or the Tournament of Power.

In fact, I'm pretty sure this is by design. Broly and Super Hero have a lot of references to Z, but minimal references to Super, despite being branded as Super movies. I think it's to make them more approachable by new fans and also, why not, entice these new fans to give the anime a chance. It must be repeated that 131 episodes are a lot for an anime.

[WittyUsername]

Things would be so much simpler for Dragon Ball fans if they stopped looking at material in terms of “canon,” and simply agreed that everything outside of the original manga is essentially a spin-off that should be judged on its own merits, and not whether it’s the “true” sequel to Toriyama’s original work.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Things would be so much simpler for Dragon Ball fans if they stopped looking at material in terms of “canon,” and simply agreed that everything outside of the original manga is essentially a spin-off that should be judged on its own merits, and not whether it’s the “true” sequel to Toriyama’s original work.

The only "true" sequel to Toriyama's original work was the Neko Majin manga; it's a shame it was never animated though.

[MasenkoHA]

Things would be so much simpler for Dragon Ball fans if they stopped looking at material in terms of “canon,” and simply agreed that everything outside of the original manga is essentially a spin-off that should be judged on its own merits, and not whether it’s the “true” sequel to Toriyama’s original work.

The only "true" sequel to Toriyama's original work was the Neko Majin manga; it's a shame it was never animated though.

If Toei is going to insist on whoring out the Dragon Ball IP they might as well give us a Neko Majin and Jaco adaptations instead of Dragon Ball Daimand and Pearl

[Vegeta th3 4th]

If Toei is going to insist on whoring out the Dragon Ball IP they might as well give us a Neko Majin and Jaco adaptations instead of Dragon Ball Daimand and Pearl.

I think the chances of both getting adapted (be it into a series or movie) have gone up since the release of Sand Land.

[GhostEmperorX]

I think the chances of both getting adapted (be it into a series or movie) have gone up since the release of Sand Land.

Which was produced by Sunrise studios rather than Toei, on Iyoku's initiative.

[MasenkoHA]

I dunno to me canon is only useful in understanding why certain are contradicted or make sense no sense “because Akira Toriyama didn’t write it”. It doesn’t mean those things don’t matter or have less value.

It’s like..it’s really weird that Krillin named his daughter after his ex girlfriend. The simplest explanation is she’s non canon so it’s not weird that Krillin also had a daughter named Marron. It doesn’t mean her scenes exist in some pocket dimension separate from the scenes that are adapted directly from the manga it’s just we understand since Toriyama didn’t create Krillin’s girlfriend Marron she didn’t cross his mind when he decided to give his daughter with 18 the same name with a slightly different spelling.

[JulieYBM]

From a storytelling point of view, it's easier to just ignore certainly things to tell the story one feels like telling at any given time. I think the major issue is with IP holders and fans being unwilling to really break storylines down into their own things, requiring some Star Trek-esque marriage to a franchise-spanning canon, as opposed to letting stories stand on their own to tell the story the staff want.

[Von]

Hi!

The question was asked during the press conference I was at (alongside Sofian, Animeland, CrunchyRoll, DB-Z.COM, DBTimes and a few others)

Here's my transcription of the answers:

https://vondbz.medium.com/canon-nakatsu ... 04a9a306eb

[jjgp1112]

I dunno to me canon is only useful in understanding why certain are contradicted or make sense no sense “because Akira Toriyama didn’t write it”. It doesn’t mean those things don’t matter or have less value.

It’s like..it’s really weird that Krillin named his daughter after his ex girlfriend. The simplest explanation is she’s non canon so it’s not weird that Krillin also had a daughter named Marron. It doesn’t mean her scenes exist in some pocket dimension separate from the scenes that are adapted directly from the manga it’s just we understand since Toriyama didn’t create Krillin’s girlfriend Marron she didn’t cross his mind when he decided to give his daughter with 18 the same name with a slightly different spelling.

I've noticed people apply this weird, abritrary rule of, "If Akira Toriyama was involved, it's automatically canon!" as if authors don't write side stories or pick and choose what particular things they want to write around for said story. And now with Daima we have two "Toriyama-approved" stories that directly contradict each other!

[MasenkoHA]

I dunno to me canon is only useful in understanding why certain are contradicted or make sense no sense “because Akira Toriyama didn’t write it”. It doesn’t mean those things don’t matter or have less value.

It’s like..it’s really weird that Krillin named his daughter after his ex girlfriend. The simplest explanation is she’s non canon so it’s not weird that Krillin also had a daughter named Marron. It doesn’t mean her scenes exist in some pocket dimension separate from the scenes that are adapted directly from the manga it’s just we understand since Toriyama didn’t create Krillin’s girlfriend Marron she didn’t cross his mind when he decided to give his daughter with 18 the same name with a slightly different spelling.

I've noticed people apply this weird, abritrary rule of, "If Akira Toriyama was involved, it's automatically canon!" as if authors don't write side stories or pick and choose what particular things they want to write around for said story. And now with Daima we have two "Toriyama-approved" stories that directly contradict each other!

I dunno I think Super and Daima are a whole other can of worms. They came out 20 and 30 years after he ended the manga and his level of involvement especially in Super seems ill defined. But even if Toriyama personally wrote every script for Daima I wouldn’t regard it part of the original story he finished back in the mid-90s because it wasn’t.

But like I said canon and non-canon, at least as far as Dragon Ball is concerned, is only useful in understanding why things introduced in the anime get ignored or contradicted when Toriyama comes up with something else. It’s not meant to be a metric of value

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I've noticed people apply this weird, arbitrary rule of, "If Akira Toriyama was involved, it's automatically canon!" as if authors don't write side stories or pick and choose what particular things they want to write around for said story. And now with Daima we have two "Toriyama-approved" stories that directly contradict each other!

It seems like it comes from an insecurity of liking something that isn't good (Super), so the only way to justify it is by saying "it's canon". Toriyama did everyone a favor by ignoring that show while writing Daima, as it would've been nothing but a ball and chain on its story.

[JulieYBM]

Nerdy people on the internet opine about 'canon means I'm a good boy' for anything, regardless of quality. You're reaching.

[ABED]

We don't actually have an answer. Also, saying something is canon is whatever someone wants it to be is a misunderstanding of the term. Fans can't determine canon. More importantly, it doesn't matter anyway. Canon isn't real. The stories aren't real.

[jjgp1112]

I've noticed people apply this weird, arbitrary rule of, "If Akira Toriyama was involved, it's automatically canon!" as if authors don't write side stories or pick and choose what particular things they want to write around for said story. And now with Daima we have two "Toriyama-approved" stories that directly contradict each other!

It seems like it comes from an insecurity of liking something that isn't good (Super), so the only way to justify it is by saying "it's canon". Toriyama did everyone a favor by ignoring that show while writing Daima, as it would've been nothing but a ball and chain on its story.

[Goe]

I think it makes quite a bit of sense.

I’ve never seen an official canon for Dragon Ball. Before 2008, it seemed like common sense that the canon was the manga, since it was created by Toriyama, but not the anime, since that was by Toei. It also seemed clear that Neko Majin wasn’t part of the Dragon Ball canon, as it was a parody.

But when the franchise was revived in 2008 with the Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!! movie, things started to get messy. That movie had a script by Toriyama along with Takao Koyama… so why wasn’t it considered canon? Was it because Koyama co-wrote it, so that disqualified it? But why not consider that since he was involved, it was canon? And with Super, things got even more tangled. Supposedly Toriyama was behind both the anime and manga scripts, yet the Super anime mentions Bulma being inside a frog’s body because of Captain Ginyu… which was a filler arc from Toei. So now the frog-Bulma filler is canon?

Then there’s what happened in the Jaco the Galactic Patrolman volume, which was considered Dragon Ball canon because Goku, Bardock, Grandpa Gohan, and Bulma appear. And we’re also introduced to two new characters connected to Dragon Ball: Gine and Tights. But I wasn’t so sure that was really canon. If Neko Majin isn’t canon, why is Jaco? Because Jaco appears in Dragon Ball Super? If that’s the case, do Dragon Ball and Dr. Slump share canon just because Penguin Village appears in Dragon Ball? Aren’t they two separate stories that the author simply crossed over, without meaning for their canons to merge? And who decides that? With Neko Majin, it was harder to see it as canon due to obvious contradictions (like Vegeta being able to turn Super Saiyan while still a soldier under Frieza), but just because Jaco doesn’t contradict much, does that automatically make it canon? Who makes that call?

Then Daima came along, and suddenly after SSJ3, we have SSJ4 instead of SSJ God. With a contradiction like that, both can’t be canon at the same time, even if they’re both from Toriyama. And if canon can contradict itself, then could Neko Majin be canon? And if contradiction is allowed in canon, then the Battle of Gods and Resurrection F movies—once considered canon but later rebooted in Super—could also still be canon.

It really does seem like it’s Western fans who have decided that the Dragon Ball canon is:

The manga (1984–1995)
Dragon Ball Super (anime and manga)
Jaco the Galactic Patrolman
Dragon Ball Super: Broly
Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero
Dragon Ball Daima
But as you can see, there’s no official statement on canon, and that fan-decided canon presents all the issues I’ve just outlined. So I think Torishima was right: there is no canon, because Toriyama didn’t give a damn about canon. He probably never even considered whether characters like Turles, Cooler, or Janemba are canon—or whether GT is or isn’t. As a result, he never established a canon, didn’t care about contradicting himself, because to him there was no canon—and therefore, every time we talk about canon, we’re talking about something that doesn’t exist.

What do you think?

[Hellspawn28]

Given that Toyotaro is a huge DB fan, he was probably well aware of canon debates on the Internet. I would imagine fans over have similar topics like we do.

[Desassina]

There's a word that I feel captures the essence of what fans mean when they say the word canon: authentic. A Dragon Ball continuation is more authentic when it feels like it establishes a proper foundation for the series to continue forward by revisiting its past developments and putting them on a new light in a style that you can tell is the author's and continuous with his past work. Toriyama did this directly or indirectly when most arcs felt like they had the same build up and diverged into other territories through the use of new story telling mechanics. Kinda like a tool box of things that work until you run out of them and need to create all new ones. He managed to keep his work afloat for a lot of years by repeating more plot points than you realize. He couldn't possibly animate a movie by himself like he drew a manga, but Dragon Ball Super Hero felt like it was his more than past Z movies, despite the fact that the latter were more in line with the series' prime production values.