Should Dragon Ball's canon be reset?

[JulieYBM]

Meaning is assigned after-the-fact, not before. We can say things like, "There's no reason to do X or Y" but that's not exactly an objectively true statement until we've seen a work for itself and judged it. I mean, there was no reason to do Dragon Ball in the first place, after all.

[Yellow Flower King]

I think that with the HBO Potter series there is a chance to be more faithful to the books, since the movies were basically condensed versions of the books with variations in them. Plus, the Potter brand remains amazingly popular of course, which is in incentive.
When you think of it, it truly is incredible how a world created by a single woman keeps on inspiring children around the world. Massive respect for JK's perseverance after getting rejected so many times for her first book.

When we look at DB, there isn't much meat on the bone regarding a more faithful adaptation. Sure, the anime changed minor things (and added a lot) but a new show wouldn't necessarily be better if it tries to follow the manga more closely. DB already has a fairly good pacing so that isn't the problem either.

You mean more chances to be misogynistic, racist and antisemitic? This television series exists purely to make money for one of the worst pieces of shit alive, not to inspire children and not to create more faithful art.

Some of have also speculated she’s using the tv series to push the trio from the films out since they have gone on record they don’t support her views. Which let’s be fucking for real the people who care enough to watch this thing are gonna compare it unfavorably to the movies regardless. The movies aren’t going anywhere. I know a lot of people who just watched the movies and only read some if any of the books


Also can we talk about this whole “got a whole generation of kids on reading” thing. Because that line worked in the early 2000s but now we know most of those Potterhead kids went on to read uhh literally nothing else but Harry Potter with maybe some of them going on to read other similar YA fiction like Twilight and Hunger Games. Saying these Harry Potter adults are readers is like saying Disney adults are animation fans or MCU fans are film fans. Does it really count if they only engage in one specific brand?

And obligatory “let people enjoy things” (unless that thing they’re enjoying is hurting others) but again let’s be for real how successful Harry Potter actually was in turning kids into readers even if we remove the transphobe from the equation

Like letting trans women and trans men enjoy being alive, happy and not hated?

[miguelnuva1]

There is a special place in Hell for people like JKR. I stand with ths orginal trio.

That being said it will be different without him for sure but I think we're heading to Dragonball being told in two stories across the manga and anime going foreward. I really feel like Shueisha will continue Super and Iyoku will do something different in anime form.

[Jord]

Let's keep discussions to the properties and it's canon instead of the authors. And keep it somewhat civil.

It is interesting we get a HP reboot fairly soon and when you think about it, the property has similarities with DB, both having unique fantasy worlds that have been around for a while and gathered lots of fans.

I do like how the HP tries to do more with it's unique universe without having to feature Harry in everything. Things like Fantastic Beasts and the recent Hogwarts game for example.

I feel DB has the universe to produce non-Goku related content, which may be a way to go for a while to freshen things up. There are a lot of characters that can have their own adventures. Perhaps even watching DB events through common people's eyes (such as the excellent Yamaha manga) could be a way to enjoy new content.

[JulieYBM]

How about we don't launder the work of a globally harmful monster through a discussion about Dragon Ball?

There are, in fact, works other than HP that exist and work as far more useful basis' for discussing a franchise's existence after an author's death, like Star Trek. Continually going back to the JKR well is frankly insulting.

[miguelnuva1]

How about we don't launder the work of a globally harmful monster through a discussion about Dragon Ball?

There are, in fact, works other than HP that exist and work as far more useful basis' for discussing a franchise's existence after an author's death, like Star Trek. Continually going back to the JKR well is frankly insulting.

Dragonball is technically in a betrer place than Star Trek or even Star Wars even though George Lucas is alive as Dragonball had stories written without Toriyama. The DBZ movies pre BOG had his input and GT had designs from him but we have a precedence for stories without Toriyama.

My personal opinion since Dragonball is going to always be around is just open up the multiverse. They have 12 universes now and can have 18 of they want to open another can of worms plus the demon realm. I say give a couple people a chance to tell stories and if something works they can move foreward.

I think Dragonball for example could survive 2 manga and an anime telling different stories at the same time.

[WittyUsername]

Since I was the one who brought up the Harry Potter HBO show, let me just clarify that the reason I brought it up was because, like with Dragon Ball, it just doesn’t seem to me like there should be much appeal in retelling a story that already had a widely successful adaptation. The Harry Potter movies aren’t likely to be replaced in the public consciousness anytime soon, so the idea of retelling the story in televisions format seems dumb on a fundamental level, even when divorced from what a terrible person JK Rowling is.

Of course, now that I think about it, there are various other factors that make the Harry Potter reboot a worse idea than a hypothetical Dragon Ball anime reboot. There’s the aforementioned fact that JK Rowling has been using her wealth and influence to harm others, but there’s also the question of how exactly Warner Bros. expects such a thing to be sustainable. I mean, a big budget TV show that features child actors and is supposed to last at least seven seasons sounds like a logistical nightmare in today’s age.

[JulieYBM]

How about we don't launder the work of a globally harmful monster through a discussion about Dragon Ball?

There are, in fact, works other than HP that exist and work as far more useful basis' for discussing a franchise's existence after an author's death, like Star Trek. Continually going back to the JKR well is frankly insulting.

Dragonball is technically in a betrer place than Star Trek or even Star Wars even though George Lucas is alive as Dragonball had stories written without Toriyama. The DBZ movies pre BOG had his input and GT had designs from him but we have a precedence for stories without Toriyama.

My personal opinion since Dragonball is going to always be around is just open up the multiverse. They have 12 universes now and can have 18 of they want to open another can of worms plus the demon realm. I say give a couple people a chance to tell stories and if something works they can move foreward.

I think Dragonball for example could survive 2 manga and an anime telling different stories at the same time.

While Gene Roddenberry was alive post-Star Trek (1966), his direct control over the series ended after the first film was such a massive pain in the ass to produce. Roddenberry could comment on scripts for the following five films, but he had no power to influence them. When he was brought on to create Star Trek: The Next Generation, his direct involvement increasingly lessened over the first two seasons because of his health isssues.

Which is all to say, that what when Dragon Ball animated projects had less oversight from Toriyama, they were typically better. Like, somebody should have told Toriyama his script for Fukkatsu no F was bad and the story for Super Hero became a huge bore after Gohan joins the main plot, but because he was the creator, nobody really wants to argue with him.

Heck, Yamauchi Shigeyasu originally wanted to go more into depth with Broli's character in that first film from 1993, but was veto'd because the film is a kid's film.

Which is all to say, I think Dragon Ball's two biggest foes have always been: trying to appeal to kids in a capitalistic way that interferes with the process of making art and a creator—Toriyama—who doesn't like to think too hard about making something good or will go out of his way to avoid giving anything meaning. I think that this is an issue that afflicts all art, though.

[miguelnuva1]

How about we don't launder the work of a globally harmful monster through a discussion about Dragon Ball?

There are, in fact, works other than HP that exist and work as far more useful basis' for discussing a franchise's existence after an author's death, like Star Trek. Continually going back to the JKR well is frankly insulting.

Dragonball is technically in a betrer place than Star Trek or even Star Wars even though George Lucas is alive as Dragonball had stories written without Toriyama. The DBZ movies pre BOG had his input and GT had designs from him but we have a precedence for stories without Toriyama.

My personal opinion since Dragonball is going to always be around is just open up the multiverse. They have 12 universes now and can have 18 of they want to open another can of worms plus the demon realm. I say give a couple people a chance to tell stories and if something works they can move foreward.

I think Dragonball for example could survive 2 manga and an anime telling different stories at the same time.

While Gene Roddenberry was alive post-Star Trek (1966), his direct control over the series ended after the first film was such a massive pain in the ass to produce. Roddenberry could comment on scripts for the following five films, but he had no power to influence them. When he was brought on to create Star Trek: The Next Generation, his direct involvement increasingly lessened over the first two seasons because of his health isssues.

Which is all to say, that what when Dragon Ball animated projects had less oversight from Toriyama, they were typically better. Like, somebody should have told Toriyama his script for Fukkatsu no F was bad and the story for Super Hero became a huge bore after Gohan joins the main plot, but because he was the creator, nobody really wants to argue with him.

Heck, Yamauchi Shigeyasu originally wanted to go more into depth with Broli's character in that first film from 1993, but was veto'd because the film is a kid's film.

Which is all to say, I think Dragon Ball's two biggest foes have always been: trying to appeal to kids in a capitalistic way that interferes with the process of making art and a creator—Toriyama—who doesn't like to think too hard about making something good or will go out of his way to avoid giving anything meaning. I think that this is an issue that afflicts all art, though.

Agreed. Even the best stroy is going to have faults. I love Dragonball overall but there are somethings I think could have been done better just as I'm sure every fan thinks somethings could have been better but we still like the art at the end of the day.

[Jord]

How about we don't launder the work of a globally harmful monster through a discussion about Dragon Ball?

There are, in fact, works other than HP that exist and work as far more useful basis' for discussing a franchise's existence after an author's death, like Star Trek. Continually going back to the JKR well is frankly insulting.

You don't have to focus on the author if you don't like her. I am talking about the HP world, not it's creator. I am not familiar with Star Trek at all so I took HP as a comparison, since I (and a lot of other people) are familiar with that world. Perhaps even more than Star Trek. It's also arguably more current and bigger, with a ton of movies, books, video games and theme park rides. I feel a more apt comparison due to the multimedia aspect of it.

My personal opinion since Dragonball is going to always be around is just open up the multiverse. They have 12 universes now and can have 18 of they want to open another can of worms plus the demon realm. I say give a couple people a chance to tell stories and if something works they can move foreward.

You could even include GT and Heroes as multiverses. I guess the Heroes anime was a multiverse spinoff then. Multiverses don't always improve things though, as they learned in the MCU.

[MasenkoHA]

How about we don't launder the work of a globally harmful monster through a discussion about Dragon Ball?

There are, in fact, works other than HP that exist and work as far more useful basis' for discussing a franchise's existence after an author's death, like Star Trek. Continually going back to the JKR well is frankly insulting.

You don't have to focus on the author if you don't like her. I am talking about the HP world, not it's creator.

So you can’t separate the author from the franchise when the author is using the money and her platform made from said series to harm another group of people. I don’t know how many times this needs to be said to you.

[JulieYBM]

You don't have to focus on the author if you don't like her. I am talking about the HP world, not it's creator.

You don't have to focus on a series whose only purpose is acquire more money for a bigot to use to influence the political and social eradication of an entire minority group.

But hey, goodness forbid you ever take a step back and listen to a woman from said minority group who is part of the community you're currently a part of.

[Jord]

How about we don't launder the work of a globally harmful monster through a discussion about Dragon Ball?

There are, in fact, works other than HP that exist and work as far more useful basis' for discussing a franchise's existence after an author's death, like Star Trek. Continually going back to the JKR well is frankly insulting.

You don't have to focus on the author if you don't like her. I am talking about the HP world, not it's creator.

So you can’t separate the author from the franchise when the author is using the money and her platform made from said series to harm another group of people. I don’t know how many times this needs to be said to you.

I can separate authors from franchises and I focus on the latter for this discussion as not clutter up the topic. This topic is about canon, rebooting properties, and the handling of the brands themselves. If you want to talk about authors and companies and their influence on brands, which certainly could be interesting, you can create a separate thread about that, but that's besides the point of this topic.

Mentioning a brand to compare it with another brand doesn't mean you support either brand or the views by the parent company, authors or whatever. If that was the case, you could barely mention any big brand in general. Hell, TOEI itself severely underpays its animators. Does mentioning TOEI, its products or watching one of their shows mean you support having these animators live under barren circumstances? I don't think so.

And yes, HP is a good example of a successful multimedia franchise with a basis in written fiction. There are other examples of big franchises such as Marvel (although the MCU is struggling right now) but Potter feels apt, considering DB is expanding in the theme park business as well.
I feel that when I think of a Japanese-made brand that may be comparable it is One Piece, but that is still ongoing, even though I think we were supposed to get a retelling of the show as well. I do feel that One Piece has less "problems" with canon, but truth be told, I haven't watched it all the way through, nor compared the anime to the manga. I'm sure there are differences though.

[miguelnuva1]

You don't have to focus on the author if you don't like her. I am talking about the HP world, not it's creator.

So you can’t separate the author from the franchise when the author is using the money and her platform made from said series to harm another group of people. I don’t know how many times this needs to be said to you.

I can separate authors from franchises and I focus on the latter for this discussion as not clutter up the topic. This topic is about canon, rebooting properties, and the handling of the brands themselves. If you want to talk about authors and companies and their influence on brands, which certainly could be interesting, you can create a separate thread about that, but that's besides the point of this topic.

Mentioning a brand to compare it with another brand doesn't mean you support either brand or the views by the parent company, authors or whatever. If that was the case, you could barely mention any big brand in general. Hell, TOEI itself severely underpays its animators. Does mentioning TOEI, its products or watching one of their shows mean you support having these animators live under barren circumstances? I don't think so.

And yes, HP is a good example of a successful multimedia franchise with a basis in written fiction. There are other examples of big franchises such as Marvel (although the MCU is struggling right now) but Potter feels apt, considering DB is expanding in the theme park business as well.
I feel that when I think of a Japanese-made brand that may be comparable it is One Piece, but that is still ongoing, even though I think we were supposed to get a retelling of the show as well. I do feel that One Piece has less "problems" with canon, but truth be told, I haven't watched it all the way through, nor compared the anime to the manga. I'm sure there are differences though.

Then compare it to Star Wars instead of HP. If you follow what's going on with JK one of the reasons she is chomping the new reboot is because as said before, the orginal trio all called her out in her BS towards the transformation community. We have a memeber here who is apart of the Trans community and clearly the mentioning of the franchise is upsetting her and anyone else who understands why she is upset.

There are plenty of other franchises we can make comparisons to other than HP.

[Yellow Flower King]

So you can’t separate the author from the franchise when the author is using the money and her platform made from said series to harm another group of people. I don’t know how many times this needs to be said to you.

I can separate authors from franchises and I focus on the latter for this discussion as not clutter up the topic. This topic is about canon, rebooting properties, and the handling of the brands themselves. If you want to talk about authors and companies and their influence on brands, which certainly could be interesting, you can create a separate thread about that, but that's besides the point of this topic.

Mentioning a brand to compare it with another brand doesn't mean you support either brand or the views by the parent company, authors or whatever. If that was the case, you could barely mention any big brand in general. Hell, TOEI itself severely underpays its animators. Does mentioning TOEI, its products or watching one of their shows mean you support having these animators live under barren circumstances? I don't think so.

And yes, HP is a good example of a successful multimedia franchise with a basis in written fiction. There are other examples of big franchises such as Marvel (although the MCU is struggling right now) but Potter feels apt, considering DB is expanding in the theme park business as well.
I feel that when I think of a Japanese-made brand that may be comparable it is One Piece, but that is still ongoing, even though I think we were supposed to get a retelling of the show as well. I do feel that One Piece has less "problems" with canon, but truth be told, I haven't watched it all the way through, nor compared the anime to the manga. I'm sure there are differences though.

Then compare it to Star Wars instead of HP. If you follow what's going on with JK one of the reasons she is chomping the new reboot is because as said before, the orginal trio all called her out in her BS towards the transformation community. We have a memeber here who is Trans and clearly the mentioning of the franchise is upsetting her and anyone else who understands why she is upset.

There are plenty of other franchises we csn make comparisons to other than HP.

I am not trans and this is an absolutely great post calling out bullshit, but you might want to just say trans community. Otherwise it sounds like Power Rangers fans. HENSHIN and all.

[funrush]

I don't think we need to make things even more convoluted than they currently are by resetting the whole thing. The only series that truly doesn't fit with the others is GT. DB, Z, Super, Daima all fit together with relatively few errors. Sure there's the Potara mechanics changing and Goku telling Beerus SS3 is his final form, and Bulma saying they haven't seen Goku in 5 years during EOZ, but for the most part those 4 series can line up. Or of course DB, then Z, then GT also works.

I already have to explain the paragraph to people wanting to get into DB, now I also would have to be like "oh yeah and also there's a reboot timeline they did where NONE of those other shows except DB and Z count" I don't know man it's too much. If you wanna keep making more Dragon Ball adventures of Goku and the gang just keep Super going through and past EOZ.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I don't think we need to make things even more convoluted than they currently are by resetting the whole thing. The only series that truly doesn't fit with the others is GT. DB, Z, Super, Daima all fit together with relatively few errors. Sure there's the Potara mechanics changing and Goku telling Beerus SS3 is his final form, and Bulma saying they haven't seen Goku in 5 years during EOZ, but for the most part those 4 series can line up. Or of course DB, then Z, then GT also works.

I already have to explain the paragraph to people wanting to get into DB, now I also would have to be like "oh yeah and also there's a reboot timeline they did where NONE of those other shows except DB and Z count" I don't know man it's too much. If you wanna keep making more Dragon Ball adventures of Goku and the gang just keep Super going through and past EOZ.

Daima and Super don't fit together at all.

It's much easier explaining to new people how Super Daima and GT are all different continuities, it's not like it's unheard of, we live in the era of multiverses in media being a common thing.

And there's much more convoluted franchises that people still get into, DB in comparison is easy, the confusion around the canon and timelines is overblown imo

[Yellow Flower King]

Also a newly redone adaptation wouldnt need to have another sequel, old OR new, tied to it, it could be its own thing.

[WittyUsername]

If someone tries to argue that Daima and Super fit together, then I can only assume they’re in denial. There are various contradictions between the two series that would make it a huge head-scratcher to try and fit them together.

I know the fandom has a long-standing belief that any Dragon Ball story that’s made with Toriyama’s involvement is “canon,” but the simple fact is that Toriyama never seemed to care all that much for that concept. Frankly, I always felt like the “canon” debates in the fandom originated because people needed a reason to invalidate GT’s existence.

[JulieYBM]

'Canon' is stupid, but this is Toriyama we're talking about. I sincerely doubt he realizes that he contradicted himself and even if he did, I sincerely doubt he considered Daima and Super separate things that wouldn't not influence one another at any point.