How strong was Tien post King Kai?

[Xyex]

-Since Tenshinhan trained for 265 days and his power increased by about .0949x each day and his original power level was 1830, his power level must have been around 46,021 after his training.

That's way too high of an increase, IMO. That's an increase of an average of 166.8 points per day which is simply absurd. Especially considering Goku averaged only 48 points per day and that it gets harder to make gains doing the same thing as you get stronger. If you really want to simplify it the best means here would be average points per day. Using your 75% of Goku's gains formula that gives Tien an ending power level of 11,370 which is reasonable.

[USSJed]

Especially considering Goku averaged only 48 points per day

How did you get 48? I did (8000-416)/118 to get 64 points per day. The 48 points per day is Tien's 75% of Goku isn't it?

That equals 14603(When you add 1830)

Is the 75% thing taking into account having sparring partners? It does not pay to underestimate the effect of another person to fight with.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

-Since Tenshinhan trained for 265 days and his power increased by about .0949x each day and his original power level was 1830, his power level must have been around 46,021 after his training.

That's way too high of an increase, IMO. That's an increase of an average of 166.8 points per day which is simply absurd. Especially considering Goku averaged only 48 points per day and that it gets harder to make gains doing the same thing as you get stronger. If you really want to simplify it the best means here would be average points per day. Using your 75% of Goku's gains formula that gives Tenshinhan an ending power level of 11,370 which is reasonable.

Note that Tenshinhan didn't spend 40 days trying to catch Bubbles, nor did he take the time to learn the Kaiô-Ken or the Genki-Dama. Plus, he set out to improve on Goku's training.

Also, Kaiô literally says that training on his planet for 158 days is like training for thousands of years on Planet Earth. If Tenshinhan could increase his battle power by over 1500 in less than a year training with Kami (whose training is inferior to Kaiô's), and Tenshinhan spent over 100 days more than Goku did on Kaiô's, it's not at all a stretch to consider that Tenshinhan surpassed one million.

[Xyex]

How did you get 48? I did (8000-416)/118 to get 64 points per day. The 48 points per day is Tenshinhan's 75% of Goku isn't it?

Goku trained for 158, not 118.

8,000 - 416 = 7,584 / 158 = 48 - 25% = 36 x 265 = 9,540 + 1,830 = 11,370.

Is the 75% thing taking into account having sparring partners? It does not pay to underestimate the effect of another person to fight with.

Yeah. I doubt that training solo would give him an average gain of 36 points a day. Because he's actually fighting against Yamcha and/or Chaotzu he's getting better gains. Otherwise, if he were training solo like Goku did I don't think he'd get more than an average 20 or 25 a day due to various factors.

Note that Tenshinhan didn't spend 40 days trying to catch Bubbles,

Which shows that the high gravity has less effect on him thus producing reduced results compared to Goku.

nor did he take the time to learn the Kaiô-Ken or the Genki-Dama.

I think not learning the Kaio-ken would hamper his growth more than help. It seems to me that the nature of the technique would cause someone trying to learn it (and making progress in doing so) to make better gains than normal. Though yeah, not trying to learn the Spirit Bomb would give him more time for training. Or resting. Could go either way.

Also, Kaiô literally says that training on his planet for 158 days is like training for thousands of years on Planet Earth. If Tenshinhan could increase his battle power by over 1500 in less than a year training with Kami (whose training is inferior to Kaiô's), and Tenshinhan spent over 100 days more than Goku did on Kaiô's, it's not at all a stretch to consider that Tenshinhan surpassed one million.

It's a huge stretch to assume Tien ever got anywhere near a million. Goku's got the benefit of being a Saiya-jin, only reason he ever reached the million mark.

Also, don't forget that the stronger you get the harder it is to make gains with the same training. For the first month or two Tien could have been getting an average of 80 points a day in gains. But by the last month or two it could have easily dropped to only 10 points or less.

And then, following his training with King Kai Tien doesn't do any special training again. He trains only with Chaotzu (who's not a good sparring partner as he's consierably weaker than him, 3x or more so), on Earth, likely with weights, but without using a gravity chamber or even a day in the RoSaT. Tien would never see gains as great as he got on King Kai's again, for the rest of his life.

Just getting to Ginyu's 120,000 by the Buu Saga, with a power of 11,370 to start with, would require average gains of about 27 points per day. I consider 18 to 25 points a day a bit more likely an average which gives him a range of 83,640 to 111,745 for the Buu Saga.

[djkalteraphine]

It's better just to ignore power levels, honestly. Toriyama decided he didn't like them, and they contradict themselves and each other too much. Besides, power levels have become a touchstone of stupidity amongst DBZ fans.

[dowlingusa]

It's better just to ignore power levels, honestly. Toriyama decided he didn't like them, and they contradict themselves and each other too much. Besides, power levels have become a touchstone of stupidity amongst DBZ fans.

I agree completely. It's hard to say anything about filler, but maybe its just some circumstance that doesn't make sense. I mean, it seems like that happens a lot. I would also like to bring up that there are multiple people to spar against when he is up there, unlike Goku. Goku had bubbles...and a cricket.

[Rocketman]

Basically, this all stems from a few premises, or rather, desires of some peeps.

They want:

1. Tien to be somewhere, anywhere near the Saiyans (and Piccolo, before he drops out).
2. To ignore that Ginyu was the second-strongest being in the entire universe, and that the Ginyu Force was unstoppable, meaning 50,000 or so was completely unattainable.
3. To ignore that humans are simply not as good at fighting or training as the Saiyans.

Oh, what am I saying?! Of course Tien could become stronger than the Goddamn Freeza by 'training' in the mountains with his butt-buddy. How silly of me.

[Neon Z]

Basically, this all stems from a few premises, or rather, desires of some peeps.

They want:

1. Tenshinhan to be somewhere, anywhere near the Saiyans (and Piccolo, before he drops out).
2. To ignore that Ginyu was the second-strongest being in the entire universe, and that the Ginyu Force was unstoppable, meaning 50,000 or so was completely unattainable.
3. To ignore that humans are simply not as good at fighting or training as the Saiyans.

How is it silly to think that training can give results in a martial arts series? I mean, you say that humans aren't as good at training as Saiyans, but every single human seems to have gotten more out of less than a year of training with Kamisama than Goku did in 3. No, I'm not going to use that as proof of anything, besides the existence of arbitrary power levels.

Really, most of the people who say that reaching the millions is basically an impossibility to humans, do so entirely to defend the "alien empire" angle of the series that was dropped after a single saga. You need to make a bunch of counter-intuitive assumptions regarding Tenshinhan in the later Sagas in order to defend that kind of view.

To assume that Tenshinhan topped bellow 100.000 is to assume the following things:

1-He had no idea about his own weakness.

He talked about testing himself against the androids, who were said to be stronger than Freeza AFTER he felt Freeza's power while he was on Earth and was told that it wasn't even close to Freeza's real power.

2-Both Dr.Gero and Cell Jr. must have held back while standing near him. Maybe, they wanted to avoid hurting his feelings or something.

Tenshinhan dodged one of Gero's eye beams and was still standing after a punch from a Cell Jr (both Yamcha and Kuririn were knocked down after a single hit in the manga). Now, he was clearly weaker than Gero, but they can't have been in entirely different dimensions.

3-A technique introduced without any fanfare or special explanation must have the biggest power multiplier in the entirety of DB (I'm talking about the Shin Kikoho).

If his power never surpassed one million, you're talking about a single technique multiplying his power more than 10000 times (or even 10000000, if you believe that Goku didn't use Kaioken against Freeza since the beginning of the battle) to push back Cell's 2nd form against his own will.

4- Super Buu (Gotenks absorbed) must be weaker than Freeza's final form.

Both noticed Dende could cure and decided to kill him with a finger beam, performing basically identical actions. Piccolo (fused with Nail) was unable to do anything to stop Freeza's blast, but Tenshinhan stopped Buu's, so, considering how Piccolo had a power level around one million at the time and Tenshinhan's must be lower, Super Buu must be weaker than Freeza.


I do agree that ascending so much is kind of illogical given what was set up in the Freeza Saga, however, considering his performance and actions in the Cell and Buu Sagas, assuming that he was an ant thousand times weaker than even minor villains is the counter-intuitive interpretation. The series clearly wasn't written in that way.

[Anonymous Friend]

As for Piccolo, I don't buy that he compared to the powers of SSJ Trunks, Goku, or Vegeta when he fought Gero.

I agree. SSj power for Piccolo would be way too much. In fact, I find it really hard to believe that Piccolo could be anything other than equal(or possibly a little over) Goku's base form, considering that Goku was stronger than Piccolo when they began training.

Didn't someone on Namek say that if Kami/Piccolo had remained a complete being he would have easily defeated Freeza, or something along those lines.

[Kendamu]

As for Piccolo, I don't buy that he compared to the powers of SSJ Trunks, Goku, or Vegeta when he fought Gero.

I agree. SSj power for Piccolo would be way too much. In fact, I find it really hard to believe that Piccolo could be anything other than equal(or possibly a little over) Goku's base form, considering that Goku was stronger than Piccolo when they began training.

Didn't someone on Namek say that if Kami/Piccolo had remained a complete being he would have easily defeated Freeza, or something along those lines.

I believe that Saichoro (Guru) said that after reading Krillin's mind during the anime.

[Rocketman]

1-He had no idea about his own weakness.

He talked about testing himself against the androids, who were said to be stronger than Freeza AFTER he felt Freeza's power while he was on Earth and was told that it wasn't even close to Freeza's real power.

Which doesn't even count as a point for one-million-Tien, as he would still be so completely outclassed as to make no difference.

Aside from that, I count that as part of Tien's nature. He's like Goku in that respect, he fights for the fun of it, to push himself farther and yadda yadda, even if the opponent is far above him.

2-Both Dr.Gero and Cell Jr. must have held back while standing near him. Maybe, they wanted to avoid hurting his feelings or something.

Tenshinhan dodged one of Gero's eye beams and was still standing after a punch from a Cell Jr (both Yamcha and Kuririn were knocked down after a single hit in the manga). Now, he was clearly weaker than Gero, but they can't have been in entirely different dimensions.

Gero was incredibly weak, much weaker than Freeza. I can buy that Tien was able to dodge one attack from him, that Gero wasn't even aiming at Tien.

As for the Cell Jrs, I can't find that scene in the manga. The only panels of Tien vs Cell Jrs both show him getting his face kicked in, but there are none of him recovering.

3-A technique introduced without any fanfare or special explanation must have the biggest power multiplier in the entirety of DB (I'm talking about the Shin Kikoho).

Tien says he'll mix King Kai's training with his own techniques. Kaioken plus Kikoho equals...?

4- Super Buu (Gotenks absorbed) must be weaker than Freeza's final form.

Both noticed Dende could cure and decided to kill him with a finger beam, performing basically identical actions. Piccolo (fused with Nail) was unable to do anything to stop Freeza's blast, but Tenshinhan stopped Buu's, so, considering how Piccolo had a power level around one million at the time and Tenshinhan's must be lower, Super Buu must be weaker than Freeza.

Piccolo couldn't stop Freeza's blast because he couldn't see it. Tien is established as having better eyesight than anybody else.

And anyway, Tien can't be that much stronger vs Super Buu than he was vs Cell, unless you think living in the mountains with Chiaotzu is good training.

[SSj_Rambo]

I am going to make my final statement on what I believe Tiens power level to be after his training under King Kaio.

-Goku gained 48 power level points a day under his training regimen.

-I believe that Tien is capable of raising his power level 3/4 (insert your own opinion here) as fast as Goku during this training period.

-That means that Tien is capable of raising his power level about 36 points a day, in my opinion.

-Since Tien was on the planet for 265 days and started out with a power level of 1,830 I believe that after his training his power level was around 11,370.

Depending on how much slower you think Tien gains power compared to Goku (I say about 3/4 as fast, considering not having to learn the Spirit Bomb, and having partners) you are now able to get a pretty accurate (IMO) answer to how strong Tien was after training under king Kaio. Also, if it is true that the stronger you get the harder it is to make gains in your power level, it would not have slowed down his power increase by much and we would still have a pretty accurate answer whether or not you factored this in (which I did not).

*Note: I would not have gone so deep into a power level debate if it was not to answer the original question.

[Xyex]

How is it silly to think that training can give results in a martial arts series? I mean, you say that humans aren't as good at training as Saiyans, but every single human seems to have gotten more out of less than a year of training with Kamisama than Goku did in 3. No, I'm not going to use that as proof of anything, besides the existence of arbitrary power levels.

Really, most of the people who say that reaching the millions is basically an impossibility to humans, do so entirely to defend the "alien empire" angle of the series that was dropped after a single saga. You need to make a bunch of counter-intuitive assumptions regarding Tenshinhan in the later Sagas in order to defend that kind of view.

Sure, training can give increases but it's established that humans don't make the ZOMGHUGE gains of the Saiya-jins or warrior Nameks. Sure, humans are better than some other races in the universe, the majority of Freeza's men were in the low thousands, but that doesn't mean they can suddenly match the post powerful beings in the universe 'just because'.

There's no 'denfending' of an "alien empire" angle involved. It's called observing facts and using logic. Simple as that. And there's also no 'counter-intuitive assumptions' regarding Tien either. What, you think he can suddenly gain ten times as much power while training on Earth, with just Choatzu, then he did training under Kami and King Kai combined? That would be counter-intuitive.

To assume that Tenshinhan topped bellow 100.000 is to assume the following things:

1-He had no idea about his own weakness.

He talked about testing himself against the androids, who were said to be stronger than Freeza AFTER he felt Freeza's power while he was on Earth and was told that it wasn't even close to Freeza's real power.

He knew his limits. He's always known his limits. He's also never cared. He's still gone in and done what he could. He did it against Piccolo, he did it against Nappa, he wanted to do it against Freeza, so why wouldn't he do it against the Androids? Especially since he went and did it again against Cell.

2-Both Dr.Gero and Cell Jr. must have held back while standing near him. Maybe, they wanted to avoid hurting his feelings or something.

Tenshinhan dodged one of Gero's eye beams and was still standing after a punch from a Cell Jr (both Yamcha and Kuririn were knocked down after a single hit in the manga). Now, he was clearly weaker than Gero, but they can't have been in entirely different dimensions.

Gero's a lot weaker than Freeza. Like, three or four times weaker, IMO. Plus, he wasn't aiming at Tien, I believe. As for the Cell Jr.s Tien was taken down just as easily as everyone else.

3-A technique introduced without any fanfare or special explanation must have the biggest power multiplier in the entirety of DB (I'm talking about the Shin Kikoho).

If his power never surpassed one million, you're talking about a single technique multiplying his power more than 10000 times (or even 10000000, if you believe that Goku didn't use Kaioken against Freeza since the beginning of the battle) to push back Cell's 2nd form against his own will.

The Tri-beam got its major fanfare back in Dragonball. I never saw any of the attack varriations get any kind of detailing or explanation. Did they explain why the Spirit Bomb used on Freeza was forming over Goku's head instead of inside him? No. Did they explain how Goku used us feet to do a Kamehameha? No. Hell, they never bothered to go into detail at all with some moves, such as the Big Bang Attack.

Also, the Tri-beam functions on a completely different level than other attacks. Cell had no damage despite the apparent effect the move was having on him. For all we know the 'kill-level' of the move was no more than 300,000 (around 10x higher) but the 'impact-force' is the same no matter who it hits. Thus the move could have smashed Super Vegetto into the ground just as easily as Cell while still not doing any damage.

4- Super Buu (Gotenks absorbed) must be weaker than Freeza's final form.

Both noticed Dende could cure and decided to kill him with a finger beam, performing basically identical actions. Piccolo (fused with Nail) was unable to do anything to stop Freeza's blast, but Tenshinhan stopped Buu's, so, considering how Piccolo had a power level around one million at the time and Tenshinhan's must be lower, Super Buu must be weaker than Freeza.

Buu didn't know Tien was there. Buu didn't nesacarily fire a very strong or very fast attack at Dende. Piccolo didn't see Freeza's attack but Tien was able to see Buu's, that's the difference. Tien's third eye isn't just decoration, after all.

Didn't someone on Namek say that if Kami/Piccolo had remained a complete being he would have easily defeated Freeza, or something along those lines.

Sure, Kami + Piccolo being comparable to the SSJs is fine. But I wasn't talking about Kami + Piccolo. I was talking about the Piccolo that fought Gero. Going from about 1.4 million to around 100 million in 4-5 years is rather extreme. Even if you consider residual effects from having fused with Nail boosting his power. 30 to 40 million is more likely.

[SSj_Rambo]

On kind of an off but still pretaining note, here's what SSJed has had to say about us on his thread about the same question on the MFG Forums.

I got a rough average from my other topic. I am decided to all but ignore the two other forums I used, as one did not really say anything and the other just spewed "TEINZ=GINYU CUZ I SAID SO"

This rough average I speak of was 54,000

I don't mean for this to be a jab in any way, I think it is hilarious!

[Captain Awesome]

I'm sure they'll tell him what he wants to hear on the MFG Forums.

Either than or it will turn into a Broly power level thread..

[Kid Trunks]

As for Piccolo, I don't buy that he compared to the powers of SSJ Trunks, Goku, or Vegeta when he fought Gero.

I agree. SSj power for Piccolo would be way too much. In fact, I find it really hard to believe that Piccolo could be anything other than equal(or possibly a little over) Goku's base form, considering that Goku was stronger than Piccolo when they began training.

Didn't someone on Namek say that if Kami/Piccolo had remained a complete being he would have easily defeated Freeza, or something along those lines.

I was just referring Piccolo before the fusion with Kami, but after the 3 year training with Goku. After fusion, yeah, no doubt he was damn strong.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

So everyone is ignoring Kuririn's statement?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I really don't understand why Krillin's quote just doesn't seem to matter? Krillin sensed nearly all of the SSJ power up to this point, so he would have an accurate understanding of it by this point. If he just saw the SSJ power of Vegeta, as well as Goku a bit earlier, then he wouldn't just say such thing if Piccolo was only like 30,000,000 or less then that.

Piccolo could be anywhere from 70-190,000,000 with that quote alone.

[caejones]

How many people ask about power levels without already having an idea of what they want the answer to be in mind beforehand?

Most topics are "x vs y" or "did x attain y?".
This one sorta broke the mold, but that doesn't say much for how the discussion's gone.

I could go try to rewatch the whole series (problem being that I'd be using the dubbed anime), and takenotes on every character's power level... but I'd probably wind up favoring someone and would have to do the whole bloody thing over for every character.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that has a little to do with the power levels in the series.
Once you give the main character a power one hundred thousand times that of the rest of the cast less than a year earlier, and over ten thousand times that which he had at the same point in time... it's too much work to make sense of what's left. Hence, even the daizenshuu gave up.
I find power level discussions interesting. Debarguments, not so much...

So, yeah, I'm going to... go... and do something less annoying...

[Xyex]

I really don't understand why Krillin's quote just doesn't seem to matter? Krillin sensed nearly all of the SSJ power up to this point, so he would have an accurate understanding of it by this point. If he just saw the SSJ power of Vegeta, as well as Goku a bit earlier, then he wouldn't just say such thing if Piccolo was only like 30,000,000 or less then that.

Krillin's quote isn't "OMG! HE'S JUST AS STRONG AS VEGETA!" it's "Wow! Piccolo's REALLY POWERFUL and he's not even a Super Saiya-jin!"

This just means that Piccolo is pretty damn strong (easily noted by the fact he's kicking Gero's ass) and that Krillin's surprised that someone who's not an SSJ is actually strong enough to be any help. Aside from Goku's KKx20 power against Freeza on Namek no one has ever had a power of 30 million or more that wasn't an SSJ.

If Piccolo were comparable to the strongest power Krillin felt from Freeza (IE, 47.5 million) or comparable to Freeza's full power (95 million) as sensed by Vegeta after his revival I'm sure one of them would have stated such instead of making a vague "wow, he's so strong and he's not even a Super Saiya-jin" type statement.

So I'm not ignoring his statement, I'm just taking it with the context of the story, like your supposed to do.

Piccolo could be anywhere from 70-190,000,000 with that quote alone.

He couldn't be anywhere near 190 million or Vegeta would be shitting his pants that Piccolo's stronger than him.

Yes, I know, no one seems to pay attention to my PL lists when I post them, but those are the numbers I go by when arguing Freeza and beyond points. It's not my fault they're always ignored.