SSJ Goku(Buu saga)?

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:37 pm

Bussani wrote:Good points, but Gohan at SSJ alone shouldn't have been able to handle someone at Cell's level. Vegeta commented that he was weaken than he was at the Cell games, so Goku must have been taking SSJ2 into account if he thought Gohan still had a chance to win.

I really think Super Saiyan Gohan Vs Dabra is comparable to Full-Power Super Saiyan Goku Vs Perfect Cell: Neither showed a huge advantage over the other, but it was clear on who was superior to the other. Vegeta stated that Cell was "two steps" ahead of Goku in the battle, and this is before anyone knows Cell is holding back the majority of his power. When Gohan and Kaioshin confronted Dabra and Bobbidi, Dabra seemed sure of a victory, whereas Gohan was shattered once Dabra said he would dispose of the trash (Gohan) like he wasn't even a worthy opponent.

When Full-Power Super Saiyan Kid Gohan was fighting Cell, he never got any weaker from his attacks, and that just shows Gohan is on-par, or slightly stronger then the powered-up Cell Goku clashed with. If you take into consideration that Gohan got weaker without training, he likely was around Goku's Cell Games power, since he was stronger then Goku in his Full-Power Super Saiyan form as a kid.

Just look at Super Saiyan Teen Gohan as Goku from the Cell Games and Dabra as the powered-up Cell from that battle. I think the comparisons are pretty good since the manga kinda shows a battle with equals in both of them with one being the overall stronger one, though not by a significant amount.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:21 pm

Yes but the Cell that SSJ Gohan was supposedly equal or near equal to had a lot of power in reserve that he wasn't using before Gohan went SSJ2.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:04 pm

Likewise, there's no indication that Gohan was tapped out (unless there's a quote I'm missing). Gohan's heart really wasn't in that fight, and even dogging it he caused Cell to second-guess his earlier opinion that Goku was bluffing about Gohan.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:07 pm

It's not made clear if Gohan was actually going all out again Dabra, anyhow. He seemed to be more or less allowing the fight to draw out so he could get a feel for Dabra and his own skills.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:25 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
Bussani wrote:Good points, but Gohan at SSJ alone shouldn't have been able to handle someone at Cell's level. Vegeta commented that he was weaken than he was at the Cell games, so Goku must have been taking SSJ2 into account if he thought Gohan still had a chance to win.
I really think Super Saiyan Gohan Vs Dabra is comparable to Full-Power Super Saiyan Goku Vs Perfect Cell: Neither showed a huge advantage over the other, but it was clear on who was superior to the other. Vegeta stated that Cell was "two steps" ahead of Goku in the battle, and this is before anyone knows Cell is holding back the majority of his power. When Gohan and Kaioshin confronted Dabra and Bobbidi, Dabra seemed sure of a victory, whereas Gohan was shattered once Dabra said he would dispose of the trash (Gohan) like he wasn't even a worthy opponent.

When Full-Power Super Saiyan Kid Gohan was fighting Cell, he never got any weaker from his attacks, and that just shows Gohan is on-par, or slightly stronger then the powered-up Cell Goku clashed with. If you take into consideration that Gohan got weaker without training, he likely was around Goku's Cell Games power, since he was stronger then Goku in his Full-Power Super Saiyan form as a kid.

Just look at Super Saiyan Teen Gohan as Goku from the Cell Games and Dabra as the powered-up Cell from that battle. I think the comparisons are pretty good since the manga kinda shows a battle with equals in both of them with one being the overall stronger one, though not by a significant amount.

I'd agree with this. If Goku was referring to Dabura being at the level of Cell when he fought him, it's understandable that he'd think most of them wouldn't have any trouble with him any more. Gohan definitely wouldn't if he brought out SSJ2, and Goku still had that up his sleeve as well.

JulieYBM wrote:It's not made clear if Gohan was actually going all out again Dabra, anyhow. He seemed to be more or less allowing the fight to draw out so he could get a feel for Dabra and his own skills.

Yeah. To me it always seemed like Gohan was kind of enjoying the fight in a way. Vegeta was out of line to throw a fit about him taking his time when enjoying the fight is natural for a Saiyajin.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:32 pm

Vegeta's issue was, as he claims shortly thereafter, that he didn't give a crap about any of the Babid/Dabra/Buu nonsense. He just wanted it all to be wrapped up as quickly as possible so that he could fight Goku.

Also, he was mainly saying those things about Gohan in order to draw attention to himself. The Dabra fight was after the Yakon fight, so he already knew Goku at SSJ2 was well beyond him. And we know at that point he wanted to put under the Majin spell, but he didn't want Babidi to know it was his own choice. I assume that freely chosen aspect of his possession is partly why he was so successful in later ignoring Babidi's commands.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:01 pm

Onikage725 wrote:Vegeta's issue was, as he claims shortly thereafter, that he didn't give a crap about any of the Babid/Dabra/Buu nonsense. He just wanted it all to be wrapped up as quickly as possible so that he could fight Goku.

Also, he was mainly saying those things about Gohan in order to draw attention to himself. The Dabra fight was after the Yakon fight, so he already knew Goku at SSJ2 was well beyond him. And we know at that point he wanted to put under the Majin spell, but he didn't want Babidi to know it was his own choice. I assume that freely chosen aspect of his possession is partly why he was so successful in later ignoring Babidi's commands.

All good points. I was forgetting there was a limit to how long Goku could stick around.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:01 am

Sorry for the double post and bringing this thread back again, but this has been on my mind.

It still seems to me that training to acquire what they call Full Power SSJ wasn't as simple as just increasing their base strength. It was about making their bodies used to the strain so that their SSJ form was like their natural state, thereby letting them raise their ki to even greater heights when they need it.

Now it could be, like we've decided, that it's still possible (with the right kind of training) to increase your base strength further, and thus power up all your SSJ forms at the same time. But could it be that FPSSJ itself is also like a seperate transformation almost, giving a larger boost than 50x? USSJ (or whatever you want to call it) has to be above the simple 50x increase as well, doesn't it?

So, just for example.

SSJ: x50
USSJ: x60
USSJ2: x65
FPSSJ: x70
SSJ2: x100

Probably not accurate numbers, but you get the idea. Thoughts?

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:22 am

Rocketman wrote:This is how I see it

Yes, Goku can become a bit stronger by continuing to train his SSJ form, but he will never get the kind of massive boosts that he got in the time chamber, just like his base form will never get the kind of boosts he got in the Namek Saga.

I don't know, Rocketman... Goku yielded major increases between the Cell and Buu Saga, because he was immortal in the Afterlife...

Bus, I agree totally. That's why Goku was so eager to reach Full Power Super Saiyajin; their basic Super Saiyajin form could remain active long enough to defeat Cell - Goku is shown in his SSJ state for almost a full day at one point in the Cell Saga - but they needed the extra strength that comes along with such an upgrade.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:26 pm

Bussani wrote:Sorry for the double post and bringing this thread back again, but this has been on my mind.

It still seems to me that training to acquire what they call Full Power SSJ wasn't as simple as just increasing their base strength. It was about making their bodies used to the strain so that their SSJ form was like their natural state, thereby letting them raise their ki to even greater heights when they need it.

Now it could be, like we've decided, that it's still possible (with the right kind of training) to increase your base strength further, and thus power up all your SSJ forms at the same time. But could it be that FPSSJ itself is also like a seperate transformation almost, giving a larger boost than 50x? USSJ (or whatever you want to call it) has to be above the simple 50x increase as well, doesn't it?

So, just for example.

SSJ: x50
USSJ: x60
USSJ2: x65
FPSSJ: x70
SSJ2: x100

Probably not accurate numbers, but you get the idea. Thoughts?

If you would check Herms Guide Guide you will see that Full Power Super Saiyan was just a name to pretty much describe what you mentioned above, Kakarrot and Son Gohan basically just wanted to get comfortable with the transformation and they did not desire to expend any extra energy while transforming. Thus, you can say they were at “full power” because they did not lose anything in the process and the multiplier was still x 50.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:23 pm

Full Power meant that while using SSj their bodies only lost the stamina that they would when exerting themselves in a fight. The SSj form is so mentally and physically taxing beforehand that mastering the form probably made it appear that Son and Gohan were stronger than usual (meaning had they not mastered the form but had improved their strength to the levels they had they still wouldn't have been as powerful because they'd be loosing stamina faster). I think that is what it basically means.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:11 pm

If I were, say, programming for an RPG, I'd view FPSSJ as a prestige class. It'd still award x50, but there would be strict requirements to attaining it. And, of course, it would yield special bonuses that a really tough SSJ who didn't train for "Full Power" status wouldn't have. The USSJ states, while stronger, would come with increasingly severe penalties.

This would explain why Vegeta would choose USSJ1 (trading light penalty for the power increase) while Goku chose FPSSJ for the Cell Games. Goku was simply stronger and had undergone special training that yielded better results. Again if I were thinking like a game designer, maybe I would give a combat multiplier or strike/dodge bonuses to the FPSSJ, in order to show that they weren't feeling "uneasy" while transformed.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:45 pm

If SSJ was just a straight and constant multiplier of power, why even bothering trying to push beyond it? Why would it even occur to them that it might be possible? Wouldn't it make more sense to just train their base forms until the multiplied power gain was enough?

You know, I see this argument a lot and it really makes no sense at all. Why spend 10 years training when you can just transform again and be at the power you need in an instant? It's not that SSJ was getting weaker or anything like that, but that the enemies were all so far beyond them that training to catch up would take forever.

I mean, hell, look at the future Trunks came from. Gohan spent two decades training and he still got his ass kicked by 17 and 18.

Herms states that the Daizenshuu in Japanese just describes what Super Saiyan 2 and 3 allows the character to do instead of what type of multiplier. Yet the French version of (I believe) Daizenshuu #7 states that Super Saiyan 2 is Super Saiyan twice the regular Super Saiyan multiplier (x100) and SSJ 3 is three times the multiplier (150).

That's the formula I use, too, and I didn't even know it was in the French Daizenshuu. XD It just makes sense to me and works out nicely with powerlevels lists too~

Hm, I like that about the French Daizenshuu. It goes with what I used to think anyway. Back when going off of the mistranslation of x5, I used to factor SSJ2 at x10 and SSJ3 at x15. I also used to figure SSJ4 at x20. And I personally held Golden Ozaru at x15

Heh. I do x50, x100 for "Mastered SSJ", x200 for SSJ2, and x300 for SSJ3. (SSJ2 and 3 can't be reached until SSJ1 is mastered). And then Golden Oozaru and SSJ4 are both x500. >.>

I really don't trust those french numbers. If SSJ2 is only twice as powerful as SSJ, then you'd think Goku, Gohan, Trunks and Vegeta could have defeated Cell if they'd ganged up on him. Even though they never tried and they're not one body, I think SSJ2 was meant to be more impressive than that.

There could have been 10 Goku's at the Cell Games and he couldn't have taken Cell. Think about it. If Goku's base is 1 and his SSJ is 50 and Cell's 80 then Goku can't hurt him. Doesn't matter how many Goku's their are if you can't do any lasting damage anyway. And no one in the series has been beaten by someone weaker than them without some sort of outside help. Goku lost to Tien because he got hit by a truck, Raditz lost to Goku and Piccolo because Gohan, who was stronger than him, shattered his ribs.

Mostly everyone agrees Gohan was only a Super Saiyan, so the likely choice would be #1 and not the others. Just my take.

Or Goku was sure he could take Dabura because he had access to SSJ2 now, and was stronger than Gohan was 7 years ago (as stated by Vegeta) and thus stronger than Cell.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:59 pm

10 Goku's could so have taken Cell. Or just two- one to follow up on the Warp Kamehameha and take out his legs :p

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:49 pm

Xyex wrote:I mean, hell, look at the future Trunks came from. Gohan spent two decades training and he still got his ass kicked by 17 and 18.

Yes, but he also spent two decades training and was still far weaker than SSJ Goku on Namek.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:51 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Xyex wrote:I mean, hell, look at the future Trunks came from. Gohan spent two decades training and he still got his ass kicked by 17 and 18.
Yes, but he also spent two decades training and was still far weaker than SSJ Goku on Namek.

No, just weaker than Goku was before he died.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:05 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:No, just weaker than Goku was before he died.

Gohan dies to one android, Trunks says he can fight both at once, and Goku can block Trunks' attacks with a finger.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:18 pm

Okay then guys, what about the USSJ forms? Do you think they at least go beyond the normal x50 multiplier?

If so, the power gain Goku and Gohan gained from just attaining FPSSJ must have been enough to dwarf whatever gain USSJ gave, seeing as how Goku was fairly sure he was beyond Vegeta at that point. And when he showed just half of his full power to Korin, everyone who felt it was amazed. So at half power alone he must have been something amazing.

Could that kind of increase really be brought about by using your energy more efficiently? To be honest, this is why I thought they'd have to have gone beyond the normal 50x. If all you're doing is using your SSJ power more efficiently, you must be more than the previous 50x your base form simply because you're not wasting potential strength.

I suppose it is possible that they simply bulked up considerably from their training too. Or maybe simply reducing the strain SSJ put on their body leveled them up a lot, like getting used to gravity or weights as other people have put it.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:22 pm

Answer: There is no flat multiplier. The strength of Super Saiyan varies from person to person and moment to moment. Goku made his regular Super form give him much more power than Vegeta's buffed-out Super form.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:31 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:No, just weaker than Goku was before he died.
Gohan dies to one android, Trunks says he can fight both at once, and Goku can block Trunks' attacks with a finger.

He also said that he was powerless against them at one point. Toriyama contradicted himself there. I'd have to look up the exact quotes, though. Anyway, Goku said that Trunks wasn't swinging his sword seriously at him...