Exactly how strong were the Kaioshin?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Also, Piccolo would rip any of the base Saiya-jins in half without even the slightest bit of trouble. If base Vegeta's a 1 then Piccolo's a 25, at a minimum.

Not according to Bobbidi and Dabra.

They never say a thing about the difference between Vegeta's and Piccolo's power. Ever.

Other than Piccolo's better at suppressing his power than the Saiya-jins are, that is.

Kaioshin specifically told them all to completely suppress their presence, so...

[Dayspring]

That's the way I see it. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that Babidi's henchmen weren't just random guys with random levels of power. They were stand ins for the previous main villains. In other words:

Pui Pui = Saiya-jin Saga Vegeta

Yakon = Freeza

Dabura = Perfect Cell

I don't think so. I'd like to think that Pui Pui was an elite fighter from the Universe, about as powerful as the average member of Freeza's race, but clearly not a member of it.

Meanwhile, it doesn't make sense for Yakon to only be as strong as Freeza: if every Kaioshin can defeat Freeza with one blast, Yakon wouldn't be that scary at all. Even if we go with the "Kaioshin doesn't know crap" argument, Yakon would just be overestimated as someone who'd be stronger than a one-blow death.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Ginyu stated all of them could suppress their power to zero if need be in the namek saga; now many yrs later they somehow lost the concept of completely suppressing their power? I see no reason why Piccolo is now the best guy when it comes to suppressing his power.

And Xyex, Piccolo was considered "trash" by Bobbidi and the Base Saiyans were not. Bobbidi and Dabra didn't know about Super Saiyan, either.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Ginyu stated all of them could suppress their power to zero if need be in the namek saga; now many yrs later they somehow lost the concept of completely suppressing their power? I see no reason why Piccolo is now the best guy when it comes to suppressing his power.

And Xyex, Piccolo was considered "trash" by Bobbidi and the Base Saiyans were not. Bobbidi and Dabra didn't know about Super Saiyan, either.

Suppressing it enough that the SCOUTERS couldn't pick it up. Scouters are technological, and are shown to be prone to the faults of technology. They are shown to need upgrades, to be imperfect. Further, their creators never considered having to deal with power levels that CHANGED.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Vegeta actually said Gohan and Krillin could suppress their power down to zero, too. This is when he is no longer using the scouter. That means he couldn't sense their presence at all.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Vegeta actually said Gohan and Krillin could suppress their power down to zero, too. This is when he is no longer using the scouter. That means he couldn't sense their presence at all.

All the same, the base point remains. A more advanced or stronger Ki-sensing technique could probably see a Ki that is completely supressed by a weaker Ki-sensing technique. Vegeta may not have been as good at sensing Ki.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I don't think Toriyama had that in mind...

[Sprite Satan]

"Zero" can't be right, otherwise all the Z fighters would be sensing things all the time and we know that isn't the case as half the time at least two of them will go "Durrrrr?" when someone starts to sense the new ultimate evil heading their way.

Everyone in the Dragon World has a ki level. Umigame has a battle power of 0.001. Can he be sensed? Can Mr. Satan? On Namek, Vegeta senses, I think, Kuririn, almost finds him then is confused by a giant fish. Does the fish otherwise suppress his ki? If not, why isn't half of Freeza's men hunting down this potentially dangerous ki level?

It seems to me that suppressing your power to "zero" was Ginyu's way of stating that they could suppress their ki to a point where the scouter would not pick up on it automatically. Scouters trigger automatically for high readings and can be used to pinpoint small ones manually.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

[All the same, the base point remains. A more advanced or stronger Ki-sensing technique could probably see a Ki that is completely supressed by a weaker Ki-sensing technique. Vegeta may not have been as good at sensing Ki.

So, Piccolo, Gohan, and just about everyone else can't sense Chi that good, either, right? Remember when Base Trunks arrived? No one sensed his presence until he powered-up for them sense it. The same with Cell when he was suppressing his Chi so Piccolo and Tien couldn't find him The real point I'm tryin to make, is that no overwhelming amount of Chi is going to be emitted if they're purposelly suppressing it. Dabra was just good at sensing their power regardless; and when scouters, Bobbidi's device, and many of the Z-Warriors sensing abilities are rendered useless at many points, it's because whoever they're tryin to sense, is completely suppressed.

So, while I agree with Sprite on the Zero probably not being accurate, they can basically turn-off their Chi whenever they feel like it. Dabra was pretty good at it, though not a perfectionist by any means. He simply choose the strongest three and got rid of the trash.

[Innagadadavida]

So if the Kais can all kill Freeza in one blast.. W-w-where the hell were they when Freeza was prancing around the galaxy committing mass genocide and selling planets as if they were Wiis? Aren't the guardians or Gods or whatever? Shouldn't they protect people?

[Rocketman]

Wasn't there some idea going around that Piccolo's being part Kami made his energy unusable?

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

So if the Kais can all kill Freeza in one blast.. W-w-where the hell were they when Freeza was prancing around the galaxy committing mass genocide? And selling planets as if they were Wiis. Aren't the guardians or Gods or whatever? Shouldn't they protect people?

Freeza was on the same scale for the Kaoshin as Piccolo was for Kaio, and the Red Ribbon Army was for Kami. Simply, the threat was too small for intervention. Until things get to a certain level, it's just "not your problem", apparently, when you're a God.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Wasn't there some idea going around that Piccolo's being part Kami made his energy unusable?

Wouldn't that make Gohan not compatible with Super Boo? He was powered-up by a Kaioshin, after all. All of that power wasn't his.

I think you might be referencing to the Dabra reading powers from 300 yrs ago theory. I don't see how Kami's energy would be ineffective, though.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Wasn't there some idea going around that Piccolo's being part Kami made his energy unusable?

Wouldn't that make Gohan not compatible with Super Boo? He was powered-up by a Kaioshin, after all. All of that power wasn't his.

Er, it was all Gohan's power. Kaioshin didn't shove power into Gohan. Gohan HAD it inside him the whole time. He just didn't get off his ass to train and access it. It is consistently described as pulling out his latent potential, and Goku says something along the lines of "Wow, Gohan really had that much power inside of him?!"

[Rocketman]

Wouldn't that make Gohan not compatible with Super Boo? He was powered-up by a Kaioshin, after all. All of that power wasn't his.

Yes it was. The Elder Kai just brought it to the surface. Gohan's 'Mystic' power was all of the potential he always used to draw on whenever he got angry.

I think you might be referencing to the Dabra reading powers from 300 yrs ago theory. I don't see how Kami's energy would be ineffective, though.

Well, Babidi explicitly says they can't use the Supreme Kai's or Kibito's energy, and Kami was in the same godly class.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yes it was. The Elder Kai just brought it to the surface. Gohan's 'Mystic' power was all of the potential he always used to draw on whenever he got angry.

If he's releasing power far beyond his limits like he stated, I don't see how all of it is his natural power.

Well, Babidi explicitly says they can't use the Supreme Kai's or Kibito's energy, and Kami was in the same godly class.

He also choose for Krillin to be petrified, too, and later Bobbidi thinks they tapped hundred humans. It seems like he didn't want to bother with trash, which Piccolo and Krillin seemed to be.

[Xyex]

Kaioshin specifically told them all to completely suppress their presence, so...

And yet they were sensed out perfectly. So either Goku was at 5,000 like he seems to be a lot of the time when suppressed, and Piccolo was lower. Or, as you're trying to imply, Dabura can 'sense' latent energy enough to know who has more reserves than who. Now, if it is the latter, then you have no argument at all that Piccolo is weaker than the base Saiya-jins because then he'd know, at least in a vague sense, about Super Saiya-jin. And all of the Super Saiya-jins are stronger than Piccolo at this point, plus there's SSJ2 and Goku's got SSJ3.

I don't think so. I'd like to think that Pui Pui was an elite fighter from the Universe, about as powerful as the average member of Freeza's race, but clearly not a member of it.

What would be the 'average power of Freeza's race' though? Pui Pui thought 10x gravity would be something special. The first time we hear of 10x gravity is when Goku is training to fight Nappa and Vegeta. Vegeta's an elite fighter from a world with 10x gravity, just like Pui Pui. It's not really that far of a stretch to assume they're comparable in power.

Meanwhile, it doesn't make sense for Yakon to only be as strong as Freeza: if every Kaioshin can defeat Freeza with one blast, Yakon wouldn't be that scary at all. Even if we go with the "Kaioshin doesn't know crap" argument, Yakon would just be overestimated as someone who'd be stronger than a one-blow death.

Yakon's also able to eat light, he's not just a straight up fighter like Freeza, and that's ignoring the Kaioshin's ingrained terror of anything with an M on its forehead.

And Xyex, Piccolo was considered "trash" by Bobbidi and the Base Saiyans were not. Bobbidi and Dabra didn't know about Super Saiyan, either.

If they can't sense the latent power of Super Saiya-jin then they can't sense the power they have when not suppressed either, in which case we go back to Piccolo being suppressed lower than the Saiya-jins were. It's one or the other and in both cases there's zero evidence that the base Saiya-jins are anywhere near Piccolo's power.

To be close to Piccolo's power would require being close to Semi-Perfect Cell's power, at the very least being stronger than Imperfect Cell, which in turn would require being stronger than 100% Freeza, and no one ever gets nearly that high in base or we'd see a lot more use of it in battle.

And then if you look at the actual previous saga it's also innately impossible. All of the power gains made during the Android and Cell Sagas were via improvements to SSJ. SSJU, SSJU2, Mastering SSJ, and SSJ2. I highly doubt that their base forms made any real increases between the start of the Android Saga and the end of the Cell Games. Certainly not getting anywhere near eve 50% Freeza's power, let alone Piccolo's.

And then that brings us to the current saga with it's own issue. If GOHAN is stronger, in base, than Piccolo is and he's weaker than he was seven years ago then... well, I'm sure you can see how many problems that creates.....

So if the Kais can all kill Freeza in one blast.. W-w-where the hell were they when Freeza was prancing around the galaxy committing mass genocide and selling planets as if they were Wiis? Aren't the guardians or Gods or whatever? Shouldn't they protect people?

Why would they? It's not their place, after all. What, should they come down and kill everyone who kills people? The Saiya-jins would have died out long before the series started, then. The protect the universe from destruction, nothing more.

If he's releasing power far beyond his limits like he stated, I don't see how all of it is his natural power.

That's a recurring thing in Dragonball. Every single character in the series has, at least once, surpassed their limits. Most of them have done it many many many times over. And it's always their own, natural, power. Gohan was simply given access to all of his hidden power.

He also choose for Krillin to be petrified, too, and later Bobbidi thinks they tapped hundred humans. It seems like he didn't want to bother with trash, which Piccolo and Krillin seemed to be.

This is actually another strike against the concept that Dabura or Babidi had any real idea of the powers of those on the cliff. If they could truly feel how much power they had, even suppressed, they wouldn't have thought that Spoppovitch and Yamu had gotten energy from thousands of humans like they'd assumed. They'd have realized they got it from at least a few really powerful people.

[Wojak]

Did really Kibito "fill" Gohan up with ki? I always thought that he healed Gohan. Like a senzu. All magical.
Does a senzu have a powerlevel? No.
Also, Gohan's wound got healed in the process. Unless Gohan is Logan (X-Men) in disguise, I don't see how he could have given his own power to Gohan.
Also, Kibito had not enough power to give Gohan either, he stopped when Gohan's power was filled up.
In that case, it would be like claiming that Kibito has more ki than Gohan.

About the "trash" thing: Piccolo's power was probably useless, and Krillin's power too low to give any effect on Buu.
Or Krillin is the Grand Kai in disguise.

[Yamcha_krillin]

And Xyex, Piccolo was considered "trash" by Bobbidi and the Base Saiyans were not. Bobbidi and Dabra didn't know about Super Saiyan, either.

If we are going to take everything in the Buu saga seriouslly then Base Goku(Buu saga) must be weaker then Freeza first form since he is unabel to lift 40 tons.

[Bussani]

Has anyone else ever thought that the bigger your ki, the harder it would be to suppress it all?

Did really Kibito "fill" Gohan up with ki? I always thought that he healed Gohan. Like a senzu. All magical.
Does a senzu have a powerlevel? No.
Also, Gohan's wound got healed in the process. Unless Gohan is Logan (X-Men) in disguise, I don't see how he could have given his own power to Gohan.
Also, Kibito had not enough power to give Gohan either, he stopped when Gohan's power was filled up.
In that case, it would be like claiming that Kibito has more ki than Gohan.

Daizenshuu says how it works. Thanks Herms for translating all this!

Restoration Power
First Appearance: Chapter 299
Category: ability
People: Kibito, Dende
Special Characteristics: A technique where one gives ki to bodies that have been injured or whose battle power has dropped from battle, restoring their power. With his dormant power released by Saichourou, Dende gathers the electricity-like ki from his entire body, and emits it from his hands. Kibito uses an ability he got from being born among the people of the Heavenly Realm, restoring people through a kiai that he sends into them (Daizenshuu 4, p. 50)

And Xyex, Piccolo was considered "trash" by Bobbidi and the Base Saiyans were not. Bobbidi and Dabra didn't know about Super Saiyan, either.

If we are going to take everything in the Buu saga seriouslly then Base Goku(Buu saga) must be weaker then Freeza first form since he is unabel to lift 40 tons.

While I would like to agree with you, we have no idea how much Freeza could lift with his bare hands.

If he's releasing power far beyond his limits like he stated, I don't see how all of it is his natural power.

The way I see it, SSJ and such access more of your dormant power by transforming and going beyond your limits. Rou Dai Kaioshin's upgrade just brought all of Gohan's potential power to the surface, far beyond his body's limits, making it available without the need to transform.