Die-hard dub fans (why are you, if so?)

[penguintruth]

If I was only a fan of Shin-Chan and not Crayon Shin-chan, I would be a lesser Crayon Shin-chan fan, wouldn't I?

If I were a fan of only Voltron, and not Golion, could I be considered a Golion fan?

The only difference is that both the Japanese and English version of DBZ has the same title.

Like I've stated, I'm not trying to be insulting. An English dub of an anime is usually just an English language version of the Japanese version, maybe a tad different here and there, but DBZ isn't just different "here and there". If you can liken the dub to the majority of dubs out there, I'd like to see your reasoning.

[SSJ2bardock]

A "troll," in terms of internet "trolling" refers to the act of purposely inciting disruption, more often than not on a set person or group of people. Learn what a troll is.

Check, calling dub fans lesser fans
and
Check, directed at dub fans

Learn what a troll is? You just proved his point my friend.

Learn what "purposely" means. If you think Penguintruth's goal is to piss you off, well, then... =/

To me this whole debate is just ridiculous.

It's like someone tells you you're not drinking coffee because you drink it with sugar in it.

That's not an apt parallel at all.

I mean, I guess if the sugar is piled in to the point where you have more sugar than coffee, and it's no longer coffee anymore but flavored sugar.

Grossly exaggerating something to this extent isn't done to piss people off. Yeah, ok.

If I was only a fan of Shin-Chan and not Crayon Shin-chan, I would be a lesser Crayon Shin-chan fan, wouldn't I?

No, you wouldn't be a lesser fan.

If I were a fan of only Voltron, and not Golion, could I be considered a Golion fan?

Yes, you could.

This notion you keep making that somehow dub fans are inferior is completely ridiculous.

[Big Momma]

I can see my post was deleted from earlier...


Very well, then. I will admit it didn't really contribute much.



But still....this debate is really getting old/annoying. Can't we just all say "to each his own" and get off of it?


EDIT:

Wait...what's the difference between Shin Chan and Crayon Shin Chan?

[VegettoEX]

To be honest, I'm kinda on the side of "lesser" fans. To a degree.

Note that I didn't say "not a real fan".

I'm just now reading the Harry Potter books. I have no interest in discussing things about them, finding out where Rowling's ideas came from, learning the meaning behind certain names, the origin of the names of spells... I just don't care.

Am I not a real fan? Not true at all. I enjoy reading the books for what they are, and that's as far as I want to take it.

Am I less of a fan than someone who would... for example... run the equivalent of Daizenshuu EX for that series? Absolutely! I don't have the time, dedication, or interest in doing that. The way I see it, I'm "less" of a fan than that individual. Am I not real? Do I somehow not exist? Do I somehow not matter?

Not at all.

The problem (just as with the FUNimation quote about "hardcore") is that people take everything personally to heart as if someone just raped their childhood with the decapitated head of a moose vomited on by a cat that was just run over by their mother.

I'm also not even quite sure what the conversation is anymore, though I'm not going to go to Big Momma's extent and keep saying that over and over and adding in stupid images to shove the point at you all (Yes, I've deleted your post. Please stop. It's obnoxious.).

I think pengiuntruth might be taking it a little far with his wording, but then again, just like he said... certain people are taking the words at waaaaay more than face value and somehow interpreting it as an attack on their own personal character... which is nonsense.

It seems more and more that the FUNimation loyalists are simply unable to separate themselves and their fandom from a conversation about the greater fandom. I've said it before, and I'll say it again... perhaps that's just karma kicking the so-called "purists" in the ass for defending those viewpoints on the internet a decade ago, but whatever.

Also, yeah. It's you dub fans totally getting all sarcastic, pompous, and ridiculous. Step back and look at your posts. If you don't want to be called the things you are and separated the way you are and looked at the way you are... I dunno, maybe don't act that way...?

[Super Sonic]

To get off the subject of name calling will go into detail with why aside from money reasons the Ocean dub changed the theme song. Back then was still the thought "More Japanese, less American kids will like," so they decided to make like action cartoons you see here. And while "Cha-La" is a good song, it's not as actiony as compared to "Rock the Dragon". For example for what I mean, here are the openings for two US series that were on Toonami when DBZ started:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKFiYohY1lg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qd_IsxgAf8

Now I don't know if these aired in other countries or not, but will say, Cha-La would've looked weird in between those two.

[laserkid]

But good GOD people, liking a crappy version of something doesn't make someone a lesser fan. A tasteless boor, maybe, but lesser fan, no. Stop throwing un necessary divisiveness into an already divisive issue.

So telling a person the have crappy taste is somehow less insulting than calling them a lesser fan?

I've been avoiding commenting on their taste, and sticking with the accuracy of the dub to the Japanese script.

This is why haven't mentioned the voice acting or music for a while.

So tasteless boor is supposed to be less insulting than lesser fan? It sounds like name calling just the same to me...

To clarify, because I did a poor job getting my point across, I mean if you MUST throw an insult at someone, then use that, because at least then you're getting at what you really mean. :p

My problem with tiering fans has little to do with this argument, so much as its a general annoyance. A fan is a fan whether they like the dub, sub, own the entire show, tankobon, ect.

All this "you're a lesser fan" thing is tantamount to is "Your taste disgusts me." Covered with some made up tier of fandom.

Fans are fans. Am I somehow a lesser Star Wars fan if I enjoy the special editions and the prequels, but not the expanded universe past the bantam books era? If you said yes, you miss out on how much that series means to me, and are being a dick. The same is true to saying it to dub fans. They like something many of us find reprehensible, but they're still fans.

[saiyangerl]

I think one of the problems seems to be that people are not wording things quite right so they end up being taken the wrong way...?


EDIT: I think VegettoEX's description and break down of the lesser fan thing makes sense as does laserkid's. But like I said about people not wording things quite right it can come across wrong.

[SSJ2bardock]

My problem with tiering fans has little to do with this argument, so much as its a general annoyance. A fan is a fan whether they like the dub, sub, own the entire show, tankobon, ect.

All this "you're a lesser fan" thing is tantamount to is "Your taste disgusts me." Covered with some made up tier of fandom.

Fans are fans. Am I somehow a lesser Star Wars fan if I enjoy the special editions and the prequels, but not the expanded universe past the bantam books era? If you said yes, you miss out on how much that series means to me, and are being a dick. The same is true to saying it to dub fans. They like something many of us find reprehensible, but they're still fans.

PERFECT. This makes the most sense out of anything said in the 21 pages this thread has gone on. I really have nothing more to add, I'm done here.

[Big Momma]

To be honest, I'm kinda on the side of "lesser" fans. To a degree.

Note that I didn't say "not a real fan".

I'm just now reading the Harry Potter books. I have no interest in discussing things about them, finding out where Rowling's ideas came from, learning the meaning behind certain names, the origin of the names of spells... I just don't care.

But the dub fans here DO have an interest in discussing Dragonball, they DO want to know more about how Toriyama got his ideas, they ARE interested in the clever naming puns. And if they love the series as much as they say they do, then they ABSOLUTELY ARE NOT lesser fans. It's up to anyone else to decide if someone is a lesser fan, it's up to THEM.

And I'd say my posts were about as obnoxious/annoying/repetitive as most of the arguments going back and forth and heck, this entire debate, period.

EDIT: Laserkid did a good job of summarizing my thoughts.

[linkdude20002001]

This notion you keep making that somehow dub fans are inferior is completely ridiculous.

What I don't get is why you take "lesser fans" to mean "inferior fans".

[Super Sonic]

I think one of the problems seems to be that people are not wording things quite right so they end up being taken the wrong way...?


EDIT: I think VegettoEX's description and break down of the lesser fan thing makes sense as does laserkid's. But like I said about people not wording things quite right it can come across wrong.

Hence why I tried to change the subject.

[laserkid]

That is, generally, what that phrase means, so if you meant something else, you might want to explain it.

[SSJ2bardock]

This notion you keep making that somehow dub fans are inferior is completely ridiculous.

What I don't get is why you take "lesser fans" to mean "inferior fans".

Lesser as described by the Merriam-Webster dictionary

"of less size, quality, degree, or significance : of lower status"

[linkdude20002001]

That is, generally, what that phrase means, so if you meant something else, you might want to explain it.

I think by "lesser", people mean "not as much", not "inferior".

[SSJ2bardock]

That is, generally, what that phrase means, so if you meant something else, you might want to explain it.

I think by "lesser", people mean "not as much", not "inferior".

That's definitely not what he means.

So yes, yes I do think the dub fans are lesser fans. They're not even really fans.

That should clear up any confusion you had.

[VegettoEX]

What I don't get is why you take "lesser fans" to mean "inferior fans".

I think that's part of the issue. There's no way to get around the negative connotation, especially if you're on the receiving end.

I don't have any problem with an educated person who knows about the original version, and yet still chooses to stick with some "reversioning" of the show. You're a fan. You absolutely are. We're going to stick back to the actual prior discussion and agree that we're not necessarily fans of the exact same thing... but we're both pretty huge fans (especially if you're on this site discussing things, just like Big Momma just stated (and for the record, posting to say you're not contributing and no-one else is contributing anything is... well... not contributing anything; don't post it)).

The underlying issue is that if someone is complacent with that fandom... choosing to not delve further into an appreciation of the original version... yes, they are inherently missing something that fans of the original version have over them.

One's the original. One's not. We know you like what you like... but what you like isn't what came first. It's cool you like it. Seriously. It is. I'm relatively sure that even penguintruth isn't telling you to shove your head up your ass and stop liking what you like (as much as, underneath it all, I think we'd prefer you not watch a dub ^_~). Even if the wording is harsh, what I can tell penguintruth is trying to get back to is how FUNimation's English dub, with all of its changes, add up to something that is no longer an equivalent of the original. Unfortunately, it got dragged down under this "real fan" nonsense yet again.

I'm not as big a fan as someone who goes back to read Journey to the West in Chinese or someone who goes back to read The Bible in Hebrew or whatever other space language it was written in. I'm a real fan, I matter, I have valid viewpoints, and I can contribute interesting things... but I'm simply not as big a fan. I can accept that. Why can't you all?

[laserkid]

I would respond to that saying, isn't it someone elses job to say if they're not as into it, then ours?

Imagine if I told you you're not as much a DBZ fan as I am because I've been hanging around Daizex since last decade?

Sure, if you wanted to say that yourself, you can, but applying that to others is just plain assumptive.

And, because I seem to be half stuck between this argument, to respond to a signature claiming this is why dub fans are hostile. Thats no damn excuse for some of the outright TROLLING I've seen from dub fans. You have no moral highground to claim here, so please don't.

[linkdude20002001]

That is, generally, what that phrase means, so if you meant something else, you might want to explain it.

I think by "lesser", people mean "not as much", not "inferior".

That's definitely not what he means.

So yes, yes I do think the dub fans are lesser fans. They're not even really fans.

That should clear up any confusion you had.

He's not the only person saying "lesser fans". And his opinion is a little strong. Mine is just that fans of FUNi's version are half-fans of DBZ. The two versions aren't ENTIRELY different.

[m121akuma]

The problem (just as with the FUNimation quote about "hardcore") is that people take everything personally to heart as if someone just raped their childhood with the decapitated head of a moose vomited on by a cat that was just run over by their mother.

WOW, Mike. That was almost AVGN level. I wasn't sure whether to laugh or be worried. I chose the former.

I think that perhaps using the term "More/Less Hardcore" would be more appropriate than "lesser/greater". I just in general am wary of anything that sounds like elitism in fandom, even when I agree with the elitists for the most part (such as in DB). It makes it much harder to help others in and broaden their horizons. Maybe they're being too sensitive, but sometimes I think they may have legitimate concerns.

Edit: I think laserkid hit the nail on the head. It's a tricky argument. And no, this isn't a good excuse for dubbies to troll either.

[Kunzait_83]

I REALLY don’t feel like reading all the way back in this thread to find out who initially introduced this, but whoever it was who first brought in the old “lesser fan” bullshit… no. Just no. This is one of the most childish and asinine concepts one could conceivably bring into this (or any) discussion. What the hell constitutes a “lesser” fan as opposed to a what, “better” fan? Seriously, this is schoolyard logic.

Do I have an ounce of love for the dub in any capacity? Not a whit. Do I consider it the same show as the original? No, and frankly I find that anyone who claims they are the same and that the differences are “negligible” is either just not paying attention or is seriously deluding themselves. By that same token, no, I don’t think that “die hard dub fans” are in any remote capacity fans of the same show that I am.

HOWEVER… none of this makes them “lesser” fans than me or anyone else. Again, I don’t even know what the fuck that’s even supposed to mean. It’s a bullshit, non-sequitur, playground argument that exists solely to provoke defensiveness and stir up directionless animosity and bickering: and honestly, does this fanbase really NEED to be any more hyper defensive than it already is?

Being a fan of the Japanese version of DB/Z and being a fan of FUNi DB/Z only marks a radical difference in personal taste (and perception). But that’s it. A difference in personal taste does NOT make anyone “better” or “lesser” than anyone else on any kind of personal level. That very concept is so moronic I feel like a jackass for having to explain it out loud. It’s JUST a goddamn cartoon folks, and being a fan of one version or the other does NOT mean that you belong to some “exclusive club” where you get to look down you noses at those who aren’t members, or some such infantile bullshit.

Debate the differences (or perceived lack thereof) in the dub/original all you want, but for Christ’s sake, don’t act like fucking 8 year olds about it. Keep it strictly to the shows themselves, don’t make it into something personal by attacking or insulting the other side of the debate with juvenile name calling. Also, those that are the recipients of the “lesser fan” comments really need to not fall for it so damned easily and get so worked up over it, as it’s a severely fucking idiotic attempt at senseless labeling. Anyone that’s past puberty ought to very well be quite a great deal above allowing something that meaningless to get under their skin.

If someone pulls that “lesser fan” card on you in the middle of a discussion, my recommended method of responding to it is simple: don’t. It’s so brazenly stupid, it’s not worth anyone’s time or effort dignifying it with any sort of attention. Just ignore it (or just leave it to our admin(s) to warn the person away from that attitude). Don't give it a level or credibility it most certainly does not desrve by allowing it into the discussion as a legit point of debate.