Dragon Ball Z Kai Volume 1 Discussion

[Gaffer Tape]

Removing alternate angles from DVDs was the best thing Funi did to improve both their video quality and the impression that anime fans had in general that Funimation releases were low quality.

By that logic it seems nearly ludicrous to demand them to change it back.

You're right. Again, I'd much prefer them to just do it the Dragon Box-style and give a dub credit roll at the end. That way, everybody wins.

But would I be incorrect in assuming that, if a dual-layer DVD can properly handle seven DBZ episodes and a credit roll, then that same disc could be reduced to six episodes and be able to handle alternate angles on title cards and end credits without the bitrate dropping? I certainly wouldn't complain about the loss of one episode per disc.

[MarcFBR]

You're right. Again, I'd much prefer them to just do it the Dragon Box-style and give a dub credit roll at the end. That way, everybody wins.

But would I be incorrect in assuming that, if a dual-layer DVD can properly handle seven DBZ episodes and a credit roll, then that same disc could be reduced to six episodes and be able to handle alternate angles on title cards and end credits without the bitrate dropping? I certainly wouldn't complain about the loss of one episode per disc.

While I don't disagree with what you want, your logic is flawed when you think about it.

1- They didn't do it for the Dbox because the Dbox was a specialized release at a higher than standard price point (compared to DBZ), not to mention it is sort of a re-release. Plus not changing the text is once again a matter of budget. They would have had to redo nearly 300 episode title cards from scratch, not to mention there's the question if raw title cards were available for the Dbox or not. If not, they would have to redraw/edit them, which is tons of work. (In other words, it was purely a matter of, we don't need to spend the time and effort to do it for this release.)

2- Their budget requires a certain number of episodes per disk on average. For DVDs this is 7 max for a dual layer. If they cut episodes out, that requires more disks or more sets, which goes past their budget and expectations of making sales.

And the extra credit roll takes up space on the disk that is needed to fit the chosen number of episodes on it.

3- Bitrate in the case of alternate angles on DVDs has nothing to do with 'space available on disk.' 10.08 Mbit/s total. 9.80 is the maximum for audio and video combined, get rid of the normal audio Funimation includes and you get around 9.15 left for video at any given time.

The best case scenario for alternate angles means that any given angle on a multi-angle encode will have 8 (for each angle.) Unfortunately many encoding tools do not do multiple angles properly, which tends to lead it to be closer to 7 or 6 (and in some cases I've seen 5.) And many tools 'lock' the entire episode/movie that has an alternate angle for even a single frame to that 7, 6, or 5 for the ENTIRE video.

Not having that potential bitrate to 'boost' to in high motion scenes can be murderous on video quality.

Even the best DVDs Funi did in the alternate angle days had quite a few problems, and believe me when I say, it is not worth it to have a Japanese title card or Japanese language credits.

[Gaffer Tape]

Even the best DVDs Funi did in the alternate angle days had quite a few problems, and believe me when I say, it is not worth it to have a Japanese title card or Japanese language credits.

Well, I'd argue that instead it's not worth it to have the English title cards and English language credits in that case.

I do have experience in encoding DVDs, but I have never worked with alternate angles before, so I admit my knowledge in that area is rather crude. But I do get what you're saying. However, I'm also getting the impression that it is possible to do it as long as one does it properly. If one's not using a program that locks the entire video into the lowered bitrate, I don't see how having a lowered bitrate solely for the title cards and credits would even be a problem as they're not high-motion sequences that require a particularly high bitrate. FUNimation DVD encodes from back in the day had tons of problems, and I doubt that alternate angles were the sole cause of them.

So just out of the sake of curiosity, the DBZ season sets. Six episodes per disc, alternate angles, encoded after FUNimation had been doing DVDs for a while. Ignoring all the video production problems of those sets, was the bitrate on those catastrophically detrimental to the image quality?

[MarcFBR]

Well, I'd argue that instead it's not worth it to have the English title cards and English language credits in that case.

That ignores that as much as you want it, the DVDs are aimed at a mass market, not the few dozen fans that it matters to.

I do have experience in encoding DVDs, but I have never worked with alternate angles before, so I admit my knowledge in that area is rather crude. But I do get what you're saying. However, I'm also getting the impression that it is possible to do it as long as one does it properly. If one's not using a program that locks the entire video into the lowered bitrate, I don't see how having a lowered bitrate solely for the title cards and credits would even be a problem as they're not high-motion sequences that require a particularly high bitrate. FUNimation DVD encodes from back in the day had tons of problems, and I doubt that alternate angles were the sole cause of them.

So just out of the sake of curiosity, the DBZ season sets. Six episodes per disc, alternate angles, encoded after FUNimation had been doing DVDs for a while. Ignoring all the video production problems of those sets, was the bitrate on those catastrophically detrimental to the image quality?

Well, the orange bricks had problems outside of the final encoding as you no doubt are aware of.

Funi seemingly swapped to no alternate angles due to a new encoding person who joined right around their and their old primary guy leaving.

Any ongoing releases that had alternate angles were grandfathered in and finished with alternate angles though. While the new releases 'past' that for the orange bricks did generally have better video quality than the previous, there were still significant problems, but then it can be hard to judge what was from what in that case.

That also ignores that everything has to be approved by the Japanese, who are inherently paranoid about the Japanese audience importing our disks. Are changing the credits and title card to English part of the demands of the license? Maybe, maybe not. Even if it is, it is a plus compared to what we have seen in the case of say... Kurokami... which doesn't even get the Japanese audio on Blu-ray.


But at the end of the day, these disks are for an English speaking audience, so changing the title cards and credits to English are expected.

[dan2026]

But at the end of the day, these disks are for an English speaking audience, so changing the title cards and credits to English are expected.

As primarily a fan of the original Japanese, I admit the title card issue is slightly annoying.
But at the end of the day its a tiny thing of no real importance.
As long as the subs are good, I'm a happy customer.

[Gaffer Tape]

Well, I'd argue that instead it's not worth it to have the English title cards and English language credits in that case.

That ignores that as much as you want it, the DVDs are aimed at a mass market, not the few dozen fans that it matters to.

Yes, admittedly it does. But I can't help but look at it from the perspective that it's a Japanese product, and the mass market that buys it should have the sense to realize it's Japanese and not freak out because of the crazy moon language in it. But, yes, I know I'm biased. I own other foreign films, anime included, that leave the credits alone completely, and I've never understood it to be a big fuss.

And you're also right that we all know that we'd had subpar releases in the past with missing previews blank credits, etc. That was the norm for so long, and, when it was, I certainly wasn't bitching at FUNimation for not having those elements. But now Toei has sold off its Dragon Boxes, the crown jewel of the DB home video crown at comparable quality. It seems the norm is shifting, and maybe Toei has conceded that point. And some might argue the Dragon Box has spoiled me, and I even joke that it has, but, honestly, I don't see proper and complete presentation as being spoiled. Yeah. Things are much better now, and English text in the credits is certainly not Robotech bad or even '96 DBZ bad. But I don't see anything wrong in striving for perfection, especially when we now know (though the DBoxes) that it's attainable.

Also, would you mind answering my question? I guess it's my fault since I technically didn't word it as a question. But I'm really curious if I've understood what you've said thus far. If there was a competent encoder using proper software that didn't lower the bitrate of the entire video track, only the bitrate of the video that contained alternate angles, would it be possible for the title cards and credits to be duplicated (neither of which being high action sequences that require enhanced bitrate) without there being a noticeable dip in quality?

I appreciate you having this discussion with me.

[MarcFBR]

Also, would you mind answering my question? I guess it's my fault since I technically didn't word it as a question. But I'm really curious if I've understood what you've said thus far. If there was a competent encoder using proper software that didn't lower the bitrate of the entire video track, only the bitrate of the video that contained alternate angles, would it be possible for the title cards and credits to be duplicated (neither of which being high action sequences that require enhanced bitrate) without there being a noticeable dip in quality?

Is it theoretically possible? Sure

But then technically anything is.

At the end of the day, the extra time and money to spend to do that is a waste.

Let us give the best case scenario: Their current software package allows them to do it and disks have enough free space..

They still have to pay someone to encode extra footage, and then output it properly, then do extra quality control, not to mention that some players can have problems with alternate angles OR branching...

So they would effectively be paying quite a bit more to please... how many people? And ignoring if it makes a few people happier or not, how many will refuse to buy the release purely for that reason? Enough to pay for all the added time and effort to get it working, and potential returns or problems due to issues with it?


This is a case of something that few fans find more than a mild annoyance, won't have any effect on sales, and frankly, most people don't notice.

It is easy to think it is a Japanese product, but the truth of the matter is... it isn't. It's an American product of a Japanese show. The very instant even subtitles are added, that is not the Japanese product anymore.

And be honest: It's about as good a product as we could have hoped for outside of a few nitpicks.

[Gaffer Tape]

Sigh, yes, you are certainly right about the current state of the market, and that the release is generally very good and leagues above stuff we were getting ten or even five years ago. But I can dream, damnit, I can't dream! And, hopefully, one day, this will be an issue that no longer exists. Hopefully!

Well, should I ever feel the need to collect Kai (and have the money to do so), I guess I'll just try to find used copies of the Japanese discs instead. In the meantime, I don't really feel the overwhelming need to buy this release.

[Puto]

Does the Japanese alphabet really give you that much of a hard-on?

I see you didn't read the reasons given for wanting the actual title cards and credits.

People want the actual credits of the show, not some licensor's depiction of them. The Dragon Box perfectly handled the situation, we'd like to see that continued.

FUNimation's credits *have everybody that worked in the Japanese version, too*. They didn't just slap FUNimation's people on a textless ED and call it a day. It has translated versions of everybody who was in the original credits list. Including the JP cast.

[Undercooked Sausage]

That's not his issue, his issue is that they are in english and not in japanese.

Speaking as someone who has worked in film before, I can tell you I've never really considered the credit design as part of the vision of the film, and if any of my work was translated overseas, I certainly wouldn't want people not watching it because they had the credits translated into their own language.

It's extremely likely that, seeing as how Kai is a huge production with dozens of people working on the show, the guy who wrote out the credits and displayed them over the ending has as much to do with the series artistically as the english production staff. I doubt he had any creative input other than the timing of when the credits came on and where they appeared on the screen.

I would honestly be more up-in-arms with the packaging being different that the japanese version, the logo being altered, and the fact that all "sponsored by" screens have been cut out, as those all more important in terms of how the show looks and how closely the blu-ray resembles the original japanese broadcast. Forgive me, but do you not purchase video games either because the credits have been translated to English?

BUUUUT yeah, I mean, if that is a big deal for you and you already know japanese, then just import Kai.

[Puto]

It's extremely likely that, seeing as how Kai is a huge production with dozens of people working on the show, the guy who wrote out the credits and displayed them over the ending has as much to do with the series artistically as the english production staff. I doubt he had any creative input other than the timing of when the credits came on and where they appeared on the screen.

Possibly what font to use for them, too.

I would honestly be more up-in-arms with the packaging being different that the japanese version, the logo being altered, and the fact that all "sponsored by" screens have been cut out, as those all more important in terms of how the show looks and how closely the blu-ray resembles the original japanese broadcast. Forgive me, but do you not purchase video games either because the credits have been translated to English?

Those were removed in the Japanese home release, too. I'm not sure if FUNimation even *has* them.

[Gaffer Tape]

That's not his issue, his issue is that they are in english and not in japanese.

Speaking as someone who has worked in film before, I can tell you I've never really considered the credit design as part of the vision of the film, and if any of my work was translated overseas, I certainly wouldn't want people not watching it because they had the credits translated into their own language.

Apparently I have to clarify again that I don't get a hard-on for excessive Japanese. As someone who has also worked in film, I appreciate the full composition of a work and don't appreciate any change to it whatsoever. I'm also the guy who was slightly annoyed at the Dragon Boxes for flipping the order of the next episode previews. And when I bought The Little Mermaid on DVD, I was put off that they re-did the credits to include DVD restoration credits. Yep. Credits in my own language. Has nothing to do with Japanese. I just didn't feel it was appropriate for 2006 credits to be shoe-horned into a movie from 1989. Just like in this example, they could have made a separate restoration credits section to play after the film (similar to both the DBox English credit roll and the DVD credits found on all of the FUNimation DVDs). Nitpicky? Yes. I'm a stickler for detail and quality, though, and I'm big into film preservation.

As for video games... I was wondering when someone would bring that up. And that is a slightly different scenario. First off, for another counterexample, I own all 42 volumes of the Viz manga, and I'm certainly not up in arms that they altered every single panel, removing all the Japanese text and replacing it with English text. It's strictly an English product, and that's to be expected. Same thing with video game localizations. English products in their entirety, and I wouldn't expect the credits to be untranslated. And if these DVDs and Blu-ray were English-only products, then, of course, I would expect nothing but English credits. It would be downright ridiculous to have Japanese credits in it. And if I bought a French dub of The Little Mermaid, I wouldn't be shocked or upset if the credits and titles were only in French. But this is not just a foreign dub. It's both the Japanese version and the English version. Except that the Japanese version is still expected to play by the English version's rules. And I find that both weird in concept and a bit jarring to watch.

EDIT: And, yes, my annoyance with the English titles also extends to the whole Z Kai logo. I figured that went without saying. As for packaging... meh, not fussed about that. In fact, it wouldn't matter to me if they put it in a brown cardboard box or used a picture of Goku picking his nose, as the packaging has absolutely no bearing on the actual content of the show. Granted, I like nice covers, which is another reason why the Dragon Boxes are so awesome, but it wouldn't have much bearing on whether or not I bought a release.

[Mewzard]

So, because the source material is Japanese, they deserve the credits scroll, and the dubbing cast, who clearly worked their asses off to make this release good for all sorts of fans, deserve one crappy sped by credit screen at the end of the disc? I'm sorry, but that's just disrespectful to the people who put hard effort into making this release, getting tossed aside in their own production. It would be one thing if they didn't credit the original cast...but they credit both the English and Japanese casts, a very fair arrangement.

As for the Z in Z Kai, remember, it was Toei's doing to have Z added in the Funi release, likely due to Z doing better than the other releases, and Toei liking every scrap of ad work and cash they can get.

The box wasn't bad, it was just plain looking, after the Dragon Boxes. But, since I'm getting both, no worries.

[JulieYBM]

So, because the source material is Japanese, they deserve the credits scroll, and the dubbing cast, who clearly worked their asses off to make this release good for all sorts of fans, deserve one crappy sped by credit screen at the end of the disc? I'm sorry, but that's just disrespectful to the people who put hard effort into making this release, getting tossed aside in their own production. It would be one thing if they didn't credit the original cast...but they credit both the English and Japanese casts, a very fair arrangement.

Bandai doesn't seem to have any problems with the English credits being at the end of the disc.


Oh God, did I just say something nice about a Bandai release practice?

[Gaffer Tape]

So, because the source material is Japanese, they deserve the credits scroll, and the dubbing cast, who clearly worked their asses off to make this release good for all sorts of fans, deserve one crappy sped by credit screen at the end of the disc? I'm sorry, but that's just disrespectful to the people who put hard effort into making this release, getting tossed aside in their own production. It would be one thing if they didn't credit the original cast...but they credit both the English and Japanese casts, a very fair arrangement.

Again, which was why I was lobbying for alternate angles. That way, both sets of credits get equal respect. But, for video quality reasons, if it has to come down to one or the other, I think it's more appropriate to defer to the original credits. Yes, FUNimation worked hard to make a good dub of the show... but they didn't make the show. They just did voice recording. That's not to undermine the work that they did. It's no small feat, but I don't see how a text roll at the end is at all disrespectful. You're forgetting that a lot of dubbed anime credits would specifically bill each seiyuu and then have a tiny little blurb with an alphabetical list of English voice actors crammed in at the end. The DBox list is much more respectful than that. And have you watched the credit roll on the DBoxes? A two and a half minute, slowly-scrolling English-exclusive credit list. That's hardly "sped by". And, yes, I do watch that credit screen, even though I don't even watch the dub. How's that for respect?

As for the Z in Z Kai, remember, it was Toei's doing to have Z added in the Funi release, likely due to Z doing better than the other releases, and Toei liking every scrap of ad work and cash they can get.

Irrelevent. The show is still called Dragon Ball Kai, not Dragon Ball Z Kai. I even admit that Z Kai would probably have been a better name for the show... but it's not the name of the show. If, next week, Toei starts broadcasting with the name Dragon Ball Z Kai, then I'd be happy to see it called Dragon Ball Z Kai... from episode 57 onward, but the first 56 episodes would irrevocably be Dragon Ball Kai.

[DB_Fan1991]

Apparently I have to clarify again that I don't get a hard-on for excessive Japanese. As someone who has also worked in film, I appreciate the full composition of a work and don't appreciate any change to it whatsoever. I'm also the guy who was slightly annoyed at the Dragon Boxes for flipping the order of the next episode previews. And when I bought The Little Mermaid on DVD, I was put off that they re-did the credits to include DVD restoration credits. Yep. Credits in my own language. Has nothing to do with Japanese. I just didn't feel it was appropriate for 2006 credits to be shoe-horned into a movie from 1989. Just like in this example, they could have made a separate restoration credits section to play after the film (similar to both the DBox English credit roll and the DVD credits found on all of the FUNimation DVDs). Nitpicky? Yes. I'm a stickler for detail and quality, though, and I'm big into film preservation.

As far as Disney film restoration credits go they did put the restoration credits after the end of Bambi, Cinderella, Lady And The Tramp & Peter Pan. Now I'm going back on-topic. My feelings toward alternate angles and such is that it is not a big deal to me then again I am a dub watcher, so that's probably why, but I do understand the other side wanting alternate angles.

[jjgp1112]

I think the thing you're forgetting is that this isn't the Dragon Box. This is the first release of an anime series and it's being targeted toward American fans. As Marc mentioned, the needs of many go over the needs of the 5 people who want it differently.

[Gaffer Tape]

Yeah, until Star Trek III happened and totally made its entire moral: "the needs of the many don't mean shit compared to one popular character."

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

That's not his issue, his issue is that they are in english and not in japanese.

Speaking as someone who has worked in film before, I can tell you I've never really considered the credit design as part of the vision of the film, and if any of my work was translated overseas, I certainly wouldn't want people not watching it because they had the credits translated into their own language.

It's extremely likely that, seeing as how Kai is a huge production with dozens of people working on the show, the guy who wrote out the credits and displayed them over the ending has as much to do with the series artistically as the english production staff. I doubt he had any creative input other than the timing of when the credits came on and where they appeared on the screen.

I would honestly be more up-in-arms with the packaging being different that the japanese version, the logo being altered, and the fact that all "sponsored by" screens have been cut out, as those all more important in terms of how the show looks and how closely the blu-ray resembles the original japanese broadcast. Forgive me, but do you not purchase video games either because the credits have been translated to English?

BUUUUT yeah, I mean, if that is a big deal for you and you already know japanese, then just import Kai.

I know. If I worked on DBZ Kai, I would want people buying the DVD's overseas to see my name and acknowledge my work. They obviously wouldn't be able to do this if my name was in a language that was foreign to them.

[dan2026]

Do people really want the 'sponsored by McDonalds' bit kept in? I find the sponsors more annoying than anything.