The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[CatouttaHell]

It seems you're right. The idea of something that pushes the power of a Saiya-jin to its limits having a consistent multiplier and Gotenks doing it in a week is freaking bizarre but whatever. Not like anything else in the Boo Arc makes any sense.

I still think it's possible he got more powerful in the 10 years though I'll concede that my current increase of 2x is completely wrong going by that statement. Being at your limits Dragon Ball-wise just means you get stronger but way more slowly IMO. I mean Goku hit his SSjin limit in the RoSaT but still increased greatly in Otherworld.

Though of course it was nowhere near the increase he got in 1 year of RoSaT training despite it being a good chunk more effective going by the Super Exciting Guide's stats. Vegeta's power was brought either to or beyond his limits and Goku was clearly talking about him too when he said they'd have to train to be able to fight Boo one on one. Vegeta doesn't have any debilitating strain problems like Goku does and his only real problem is that he's just too weak...

Great points by the way. We may not agree on much but I can tell you're very knowledgeable about the series and always bring up good, hard to counter arguments.

[vegetaslegacy15]

post-ROSAT Gohan vs. Future Gohan
Namek saga Goku vs. Future Gohan

[CatouttaHell]

1. Base Gohan (Post-RoSaT) slaps SSjin Future Gohan unconscious. This isn't even remotely fair.
2. I can't remember much about Future Gohan but he's on par with Namek Goku IIRC. So if that is so Goku wins simply because he's the most skilled fighter in the series (except for Vegetto of course) while Gohan is an idiot.

[dbgtFO]

post-ROSAT Gohan vs. Future Gohan
Namek saga Goku vs. Future Gohan

1. Gohan doesn't even need Super Saiyan and comfortably K.O.s our favourite Gohan.
2. Future Gohan seems to be closer to Goku when he came back from Namek than Goku on Namek, so Future Gohan takes this.

[CatouttaHell]

SSjin 3 Gogeta vs. Gotenks-Boo

[dbgtFO]

I constantly change my mind on Gogeta's strength, but as of now I have him slightly superior to Gohan-Buu, so since he's facing a weaker Buu, Gogeta would eventually win.

[CatouttaHell]

I have:

Gotenks-Boo - 125
SSjin 3 Gogeta - 128

He'd probably lose due to Boo's insane durability and SSjin 3 cutting his fusion time short but he may manage to pull some crazy attack out of nowhere and destroy all of Boo's cells before that time IMO.

I constantly change my mind on Gogeta's strength as well, though I always have him pretty low outside of Toei World since the Daizenshuu says that Gohan = Goten, which makes it impossible for Goku/Vegeta to be worlds above Goten/Trunks.

Base Vegetto in the Boo Arc is several million times stronger than a hypothetical Boo Arc SSjin 3 Gogeta IMO.

[dbgtFO]

Heh, yeah I saw the tremendous gap you applied between Gotenks-Buu and Gohan-Buu due to SEGs: Vegetto = Vegeta x Goku over in the power levels thread.

Toriyama doesn't leave many clues about Gogeta's strength, though what we know as fact is:

• 1)Potara Merging gives a stronger result than Fusion, so Gogeta < Vegetto.*
• 2)Vegetto himself is surprised that he's making such a big fool out of Gohan-Buu(read: he's so much stronger), which implies a hypothetical Gogeta wouldn't be able to do the same.

*Source: Daizenshuu 4, page 163 & Daizenshuu 7, page 211

So due to those two points I end up with a hypothetical Gogeta not being that superior to Gohan-Buu, if at all.
There's of course Elder Kaioshin's comment about Vegetto being so strong due to Goku and Vegeta's individual strength, but I don't take it to mean anything about how a hypothetical Gogeta stacks up against Vegetto, I'd rather think that this is the only thing implied at all: Kaioshin + Kibito < Vegeta + Goku, because Kaioshin and Kibito are much weaker than Vegeta and Goku to begin with.

[CatouttaHell]

I have Metamorian as a+b right now as I don't think Gotenks is that powerful. Also because of that SEG statement that Potara is more like multiplication while Metamorian is addition. So Vegetto is GokuxVegeta and Gogeta is Goku+Vegeta.

Do you think it's possible that none of Boo's absorptions are necessarily additive? I mean Gotenks-Boo didn't think a hypothetical Gokan would be able to beat him after all. That can be dismissed as typical villain cockiness but it does imply that Gotenks-Boo is not just Gotenks + Evil Boo IMO.

Also Gotenks-Boo is >>> Kibitoshin, who should be a total monster IMO. Kaioshin took a much bigger beating from Dai Kaioshin Boo than SSjin 2 Gohan and Dabra.

I agree that Gogeta shouldn't be much stronger, if at all, than Gohan-Boo. Goten and Trunks should be rivaling Gohan Pre-RoSaT at the very least according to both the Daizenshuu and the manga so Gogeta can't be some kind of god compared to Gotenks as many people believe.

Vegeta saw Metamorian from Otherworld and it's likely he knew how to do it, so IMO there's a good reason that they chose the permanent Potara fusion instead of Metamorian.

I honestly don't think there's any hypothetical Metamorian fusion that could come anywhere near Gohan-Boo in terms of power (though I have him six million times stronger than Gotenks-Boo by my current list lol.) The SEG multiplier makes Vegetto and by extension Gohan-Boo (if you, like me, believe Base Vegetto is below him that is) completely unreachable powers even by other fusions.

[hleV]

Also because of that SEG statement that Potara is more like multiplication while Metamorian is addition.

Really? Well, Metamorian being "more like addition" is not directly an "addition", more like there's an addition operation involved rather than multiplication one.

• Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta;
  Kibitoshin ≠ Kibito x Kaioshin (probably because they aren't rivals);
  Kibitoshin ≠ Kibito + Kaioshin (Potara Fusion is said to be greater than Metamorian anyway);
  Gotenks ≠ Goten x Trunks (he would be too strong otherwise);
  Gotenks ≠ Goten + Trunks (he would be too weak otherwise).

Goku told himself that Metamorians were weak separately but once fused they were incredible. Incredible in Goku's eyes.

[dbgtFO]

Also because of that SEG statement that Potara is more like multiplication while Metamorian is addition.

It doesn't actually talk about Metamorian fusion in that section, probably because it was focused on the power-ups Goku got.

[Kaboom]

That's why we were never given any sort of actual mechanical explanation for Fusion, because frankly, the results are unpredictable. Goku could only really wager a guess for Gotenks, Vegetto was way stronger than anyone expected, the merged Kaioshin was still useless, and Mr. Satan would have potentially made Goku even weaker.

Even if 'GOKU X VEGETA' for Vegetto is taken literally, rather than merely being a way of saying, "his power is too incredible to comprehend," that doesn't necessarily mean that such a formula applies to anyone else.

[hleV]

Even if 'GOKU X VEGETA' for Vegetto is taken literally, rather than merely being a way of saying, "his power is too incredible to comprehend," that doesn't necessarily mean that such a formula applies to anyone else.

I doubt anyone said it does.

[Luke Groundwalker]

Just something I'm curious about.

Who is stronger: Fat Boo (w/ Evil Boo inside) or Kid Boo?

Of course Kid Boo has the advantage in the respect that he's more dangerous, but wouldn't technically Fat Boo be more powerful than him?

[CatouttaHell]

Pure Boo is IMO a good deal above SSjin 3 Goku, who beat the crap out of Majin Boo (Dai Kaioshin Absorbed) while likely not even using his full power.

However, the Daizenshuu says that Majin Boo was weakened SOMEWHAT when he absorbed Dai Kaioshin, which could imply Majin Boo (Dai Kaioshin Absorbed) is equal to or around Evil Boo and he just didn't bring out the maximum power he could bring out from his rage yet before he split in two.

Though even if that is so I still personally say Pure Boo is stronger.

[Nineteen]

Team Bardock:

Bardock
Toma
Selypa
Totepo
Panbukin

vs.

Team Vegeta:

Vegeta (Saiyan-saga)
Nappa
Raditz
And five Saibamen

Bardock and Raditz either don't know or don't care about their relation. Who wins?

My reckoning: Bardock and his team can probably dispose of Nappa, Raditz and the Saibaman quickly enough not to lose any men, and that they'd have a numbers advantage going in to fight Vegeta. After all, Bardock is about as powerful as Goku was when he took out Nappa ("over 8,000/9,000", depending on your source), and pre-Kaioken Goku was at least capable of hanging with Vegeta.

Not saying they'd beat Vegeta, but I think they could at least make him know he was in for a fight.

[Rocketman]

Vegeta could obliterate all of Bardock's team and his own at the same time without putting any real effort in.

[CatouttaHell]

From a manga perspective I don't think Bardock and co are much. Nappa should be >>> Bardock and he should've been under 4,000 back then.

Bardock could easily be weaker than Ma Junior or even God IMO. Raditz most likely surpassed him by a large amount a long time before he appeared on Earth and he was at 1,500.

Even Anime-wise though, Vegeta is at 18,000. He'd butcher all of them combined without breaking a sweat.

[Kaboom]

Bardock himself tops out at around 10,000, and he single-handedly wiped out those Freeza elites. Those elites were presumably, unless Dodoria himself gave them a hand, collectively strong enough to easily take out his team. If this is the case, then Bardock himself is significantly stronger than his crew, and even though they could all probably take down Nappa, Raditz, and the Saibaimen pretty easily, once they got to Vegeta, they wouldn't be much use as backup. So then without Goku's advantage of the Kaio-Ken, Bardock's not going to stand much of a chance on his own. Vegeta wins in the end.

[Nineteen]

Bardock himself tops out at around 10,000

This is what my argument hinges on. If Bardock is 10,000 even, that makes him somewhat stronger than either the anime or the manga version of Goku who fought Vegeta in his base form, so we can look to that for an example of how a one-on-one battle between Vegeta and Bardock might conceivably go. The problem is that we don't have any real way to judge the capabilities of his crew. But I feel that even if they were individually just between Raditz and Nappa, and that the others on Vegeta's team were taken care of first, then Vegeta could have a problem on his hands. There's strength in numbers.