How strong was Dabura?

[dprez]

It in fact is because EVERY SSJ2 is drawn with sparks .

This, again, isn't a fact, it's an interpretation.

Yes, but a seemingly obvious interpretation based on how Ssj2 has been and always was introduced throughout the series. It's the basic and most essential quality of the level beyond super saiyan next to the rising hair.

Seams to me, a Ssj2 either has sparks or has their hair rise, with the plot telling us their level of power. I interpret that the plot does not tell me Gohan has to be a Ssj2 when he fights Dabra. The visual evidence quickly leads me to thinking Gohan was Ssj2 against Kibito at the tournament, but not against Dabra, or even Boo. I also interpret that the plot actually supports this notion.

I see why there is confusion. Toriyama dragged his ass through this arc. Left things unexplained and what not. You can make that argument, but I don't see enough to interpret otherwise. Posting all the manga quotes and having a dynamic comparison of all our opinions in a single thread would be cool me thinks.

[Saiga]

How is it according to me? You have eyes, don't you notice the sparks? they're there, you can't just pretend they don't exist to satisfy your personal preference. Wait, you want me to give you guide proof for what reason? If you're attempting to invalidate guidebooks, why would guide proof be any good to you?

I notice the sparks. I also notice the lack of sparks at certain times which you keep ignoring.

And you clearly missed what I said. I said guidebook proof that isn't contradicted by it's own source. The GT Perfect Files were just an example of something that contradicts itself, I'm not out to invalidate guidebooks or anything like that.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'm not ignoring anything. Yeah, there are times where there aren't sparks, that doesn't change the fact they appear often every time someone is a SSJ2. Gohan doesn't have any. He had sparks, a sharper aura, and a sharper face at the Budokai, why isn't that reflected here? I'll tell you why, he is just a SSJ.

[dprez]

Ignoring all the guidebooks and other self-conflicted extra sources, this is what I see.

• [1] At the tournament, Gohan clearly says that he's going to use his "above Super Saiyan" form, and then has a very specific and plainly-drawn appearance when he uses it.
  [2] A short time later, he transforms to fight Dabra, but does not have the same appearance previously attributed with "above Super Saiyan" this time.
  [3] A little later still, Goku and Vegeta have the same appearance as Gohan against Dabra, but then transform and adopt the "above Super Saiyan" appearance. They are specifically noted to be fighting at such an "above Super Saiyan" level.
  [4] Some time later again, Goku does this, adding further clarification to the whole thing.

I don't know about anyone else, but to me this just SCREAMS "intentional design consistency."

I love this guy.

It practically was screamed at me the first time I read the manga, and every time after that.

[Saiga]

I'm not ignoring anything. Yeah, there are times where there aren't sparks, that doesn't change the fact they appear often. Gohan doesn't have any. He had sparks, a sharper aura, and a sharper face at the Budokai, why isn't that reflected here? I'll tell you why, he is just a SSJ.

I'm aware that they appear often. But just appearing often isn't conclusive of anything.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'm not ignoring anything. Yeah, there are times where there aren't sparks, that doesn't change the fact they appear often. Gohan doesn't have any. He had sparks, a sharper aura, and a sharper face at the Budokai, why isn't that reflected here? I'll tell you why, he is just a SSJ.

I'm aware that they appear often. But just appearing often isn't conclusive of anything.

It is because every SSJ2 has them appear often. That's a fact, not an interpretation. Here I'll prove it:

Spoiler:

There, Now to contrast the differences between a SSJ2 Goku and the Gohan that fought Dabura:

Spoiler:

[Saiga]

It is because every SSJ2 has them appear often. That's a fact, not an interpretation.

Yes, but "often" doesn't equal "always" and doesn't make it a fact that a SS2 couldn't be lacking them.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It is because every SSJ2 has them appear often. That's a fact, not an interpretation.

Yes, but "often" doesn't equal "always" and doesn't make it a fact that a SS2 couldn't be lacking them.

Every time a SSJ2 appears they have sparks. Why would Gohan be an exception? You just accept a typo in the Daizenshuu over every example provided in the manga because you prefer Gohan being a SSJ2. Sparks aren't all the prerequisites either, the pictures I provided above set a clear example of what someones face and aura should look like as well. I don't know how it could be anymore clear. If you want to go on believing Gohan is a SSJ2, be my guest. Just know that the manga showers you with counters.

[Mjb1985]

The manga doesn't show you any counters. Ssj2 has sparks over 90% of the time. There are 15 panels all bunched together of Gohan fighting without sparks. This doesn't sound like one of those super secret hidden gems that Toriyama is so well known for.

[Kaboom]

I don't know why anybody even bothers to mention what the guidebooks say on this matter. Multiple sources say different things. Even two different volumes of the same series of guidebooks disagree with each other. So who cares?

Don't even bother with other sources. Just look at the manga. Look at was is clearly and obviously drawn and explained right in front of you. There's your answer. You can flip back to prior chapters and see that Goku's right. Every single confirmed appearance of Super Saiyan 2 is consistently drawn that way: with sparks, and usually within a more "fierce" aura.

Now, keep in mind that "consistency" does not mean "one hundred percent perfect." It means that a trend or pattern is so incredibly coherent that any few instances to the contrary are dismissed as minor anomalies. There is clear "consistency" in how the aura of a Super Saiyan 2 is drawn.

It's like when you go to Burger King. Every now and then, a french fry finds its way into the container along with your onion rings. But the rare occasional presence of a french fry or two in your onion rings does not call into question the entire visual definition of either one. Nobody in their right mind would point to a container of french fries and try to claim that they're actually onion rings despite not looking like onion rings. That'd be completely silly.

Well the way I see it, this is just as silly. Yes, a Super Saiyan 2 is not, technically, always drawn with the sparks. For one, there's instances where no aura is surrounding them or otherwise visible at all, but I don't think I even have to say that those instances don't count. Other than that, you have those anomalies now and then. But they're scattered among dozens of others, all around them, which are drawn correctly and do not come even close to outweighing the otherwise overwhelming conformity.

You could count the rare instances in the Boo arc where a Super Saiyan 2's aura is drawn without sparks on both hands, compared to the likely hundred-plus instance where they're drawn with them. That's clear consistency. That means something. It can't not mean something.

The guidebooks are conflicted, and the story makes no more or less sense either way. The downright overwhelmingly consistent art is the tie-breaker. I don't know what else to say at this point but to keep stating what it is. "Obvious."

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm gone for a day, and thought this thread had finally died, and I come back to see 3 new pages
I like what Kaboom said. We saw that Gohan had to take his time to transform for Kibito, and I doubt that Dabura would just stand there and give him the chance, although it would make Gohan an easy spitting target

[Draken]

I'm gone for a day, and thought this thread had finally died, and I come back to see 3 new pages
I like what Kaboom said. We saw that Gohan had to take his time to transform for Kibito, and I doubt that Dabura would just stand there and give him the chance, although it would make Gohan an easy spitting target

Just playing DA but why didn't Gohan just transform while Dabura was meditating?

[Kaboom]

although it would make Gohan an easy spitting target

"Alright! I'll show you my true power! You won't stand a chance! RRRRRRGHYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-" *splat* "OH SHI-"

[Fionordequester]

I'm gone for a day, and thought this thread had finally died, and I come back to see 3 new pages
I like what Kaboom said. We saw that Gohan had to take his time to transform for Kibito, and I doubt that Dabura would just stand there and give him the chance, although it would make Gohan an easy spitting target

Who says it took time? It was only a couple panels in the manga.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm gone for a day, and thought this thread had finally died, and I come back to see 3 new pages
I like what Kaboom said. We saw that Gohan had to take his time to transform for Kibito, and I doubt that Dabura would just stand there and give him the chance, although it would make Gohan an easy spitting target

Just playing DA but why didn't Gohan just transform while Dabura was meditating?

Maybe he thought he'd be able to transform quickly in an actual fight? Gohan's reaction to stress prior to this was to hulk out and crush people. I would think that he would believe that this would happen again.

Or Gohan's just an idiot. That's a disease that nobody is immune to in the Buu Arc

I'm gone for a day, and thought this thread had finally died, and I come back to see 3 new pages
I like what Kaboom said. We saw that Gohan had to take his time to transform for Kibito, and I doubt that Dabura would just stand there and give him the chance, although it would make Gohan an easy spitting target

Who says it took time? It was only a couple panels in the manga.

The crowd was getting bored waiting on them.

[Saiga]

Every time a SSJ2 appears they have sparks. Why would Gohan be an exception? You just accept a typo in the Daizenshuu over every example provided in the manga because you prefer Gohan being a SSJ2. Sparks aren't all the prerequisites either, the pictures I provided above set a clear example of what someones face and aura should look like as well. I don't know how it could be anymore clear. If you want to go on believing Gohan is a SSJ2, be my guest. Just know that the manga showers you with counters.

No, I don't prefer Gohan being a SS2. Why would I? I think he's a Super Saiyan 2 because I don't see any reason to believe that the D7 error was a typo, because I don't put too much stock into the sparks, and because I think it's the most likely case in the story itself.

The incident with Vegeta (and Toriyama drawing Goku later on with sparks in Super Saiyan 1) makes me believe the sparks are an indicator of power. Vegeta lacks them when he's exhausted, and Gohan lacks them because he's a weakened Super Saiyan 2.

And the face thing isn't significant to me.

I don't know why anybody even bothers to mention what the guidebooks say on this matter. Multiple sources say different things. Even two different volumes of the same series of guidebooks disagree with each other. So who cares?

Don't even bother with other sources. Just look at the manga. Look at was is clearly and obviously drawn and explained right in front of you. There's your answer. You can flip back to prior chapters and see that Goku's right. Every single confirmed appearance of Super Saiyan 2 is consistently drawn that way: with sparks, and usually within a more "fierce" aura.

Now, keep in mind that "consistency" does not mean "one hundred percent perfect." It means that a trend or pattern is so incredibly coherent that any few instances to the contrary are dismissed as minor anomalies. There is clear "consistency" in how the aura of a Super Saiyan 2 is drawn.

It's like when you go to Burger King. Every now and then, a french fry finds its way into the container along with your onion rings. But the rare occasional presence of a french fry or two in your onion rings does not call into question the entire visual definition of either one. Nobody in their right mind would point to a container of french fries and try to claim that they're actually onion rings despite not looking like onion rings. That'd be completely silly.

Well the way I see it, this is just as silly. Yes, a Super Saiyan 2 is not, technically, always drawn with the sparks. For one, there's instances where no aura is surrounding them or otherwise visible at all, but I don't think I even have to say that those instances don't count. Other than that, you have those anomalies now and then. But they're scattered among dozens of others, all around them, which are drawn correctly and do not come even close to outweighing the otherwise overwhelming conformity.

You could count the rare instances in the Boo arc where a Super Saiyan 2's aura is drawn without sparks on both hands, compared to the likely hundred-plus instance where they're drawn with them. That's clear consistency. That means something. It can't not mean something.

The guidebooks are conflicted, and the story makes no more or less sense either way. The downright overwhelmingly consistent art is the tie-breaker. I don't know what else to say at this point but to keep stating what it is. "Obvious."

So why do should we even use guidebooks at all, at any time? It seems like this is the only time you suggest completely tossing them out, which seems rather hypocritical. If it's on the grounds of two guidebooks disagreeing, that's not true anyway.

Even looking purely at the manga, I still don't see it being incontestable that sparks = Super Saiyan 2. I don't have a problem with that, but I do have a problem with people thinking that's the only way. Just like people who think Gotenks must be greater than Fat Boo.

The burger king analogy just doesn't come close to fitting here. That's more like if Super Saiyan 2 had purple hair and turned their lower body into robot legs. The differences are too obvious.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Kaboom is merely pointing out that these statements are blatantly contradicted. It's clear as day man. One Daizenshuu entry that pegs Gohan as a SSJ2, which could easily be a typo, does not make up for the 50+ panels of sparks and aura differences on all the SSJ2s that show up in the manga. Seriously 1/50 aren't very good odds.

[Kaboom]

So why do should we even use guidebooks at all, at any time? It seems like this is the only time you suggest completely tossing them out, which seems rather hypocritical. If it's on the grounds of two guidebooks disagreeing, that's not true anyway.

Daizenshuu #7 says one thing on the matter while Daizenshuu #2 says another. That is undeniably true. There's no more or less reason to believe that the D2 entry is a typo or mistake than there is for the D7 one. There's a blatant conflict between each tidbit, and with that right there the "main" supplementary source for these types of things contradicts itself. I've seen other conflicting sources being brought up too. Someone mentioned the GT Perfect Files and a Tenkaichi 3 character bio or something, right?

If guidebooks and other extra materials were as conflicted on other topics, we wouldn't use them for that either. If half of all official guides out there said Freeza's full power was 120 million but the other half said he was an even 100 million, then neither option would stand by itself, and we'd be left to decide which one, if either, was "right" on our own using just the original source.

When extra sources are inconclusive or conflicted, you look to the original material they're attached to. So in this case we've got some supplementary sources saying one thing, others saying the opposite, while the visual evidence in the manga heavily — nay, dominantly — leans in favor of one. Where does that leave us?

[Saiga]

So why do should we even use guidebooks at all, at any time? It seems like this is the only time you suggest completely tossing them out, which seems rather hypocritical. If it's on the grounds of two guidebooks disagreeing, that's not true anyway.

Daizenshuu #7 says one thing on the matter while Daizenshuu #2 says another. That is undeniably true.

Actually, no it isn't. Daizenshuu 2 doesn't say anything, it neglects to say something. There's a difference.

There's no more or less reason to believe that the D2 entry is a typo or mistake than there is for the D7 one.

Actually, yes there is. Daizenshuu 2 entry makes the same "mistake" with Super Saiyan Vegeta.

If guidebooks and other extra materials were as conflicted on other topics, we wouldn't use them for that either. If half of all official guides out there said Freeza's full power was 120 million but the other half said he was an even 100 million, then neither option would stand by itself, and we'd be left to decide which one, if either, was "right" on our own using just the original source.

So Freeza's 120 million is invalid because of that one video game that puts it at 3 million?

When extra sources are inconclusive or conflicted, you look to the original material they're attached to. So in this case we've got some supplementary sources saying one thing, others saying the opposite, while the visual evidence in the manga heavily — nay, dominantly — leans in favor of one. Where does that leave us?

Gotenks being stronger than Goku, apparently.

[Kaboom]

Gotenks being stronger than Goku, apparently.

Really? Bringing up a controversial opinion on an entirely different subject to attack credibility? That's low. I thought you were better than that.

Spoiler:

That's it. I'm done. I really have nothing left to say anymore. This is abso-freakin'-lutely ridiculous and borderline shameful. If people want to keep pointing to the color blue and claiming that it's actually red, fine. Go nuts.

I'm going to take another whack at staying out of this unless I'm needed as a mod.