Official DBZ 2015 Movie Power Discussion: "Resurrection F"

[buutenks]

Was it ever explained why shisame could go toe to toe with piccolo?

[dbzfan7]

Was it ever explained why shisame could go toe to toe with piccolo?

Nope. People guess he did some serious training, or was already that strong. Absolutely nothing is actually concrete to how he could be equal to Piccolo.

[Bullza]

Freeza in his first form was able to easily beat SSJ1 Gohan, so his power in that form would be even higher, but we don't how much higher.

No, Frieza one shotted base Gohan not Super Saiyan Gohan.

[Dyno]

That doesn't make any difference, you know. Being Super Saiyan or not, he would be one-shotted... Remember Freeza's new power surpass a lot Son Gohan's. Heck, I think the same would even happen if he was Super Saiyan 2 or "Mystic/Ultimate" at that time.

[ZombieVito]

Freeza in his first form was able to easily beat SSJ1 Gohan, so his power in that form would be even higher, but we don't how much higher.

No, Freeza one shotted base Gohan not Super Saiyan Gohan.

Doesn't matter. Piccolo says Freeza is just in another league compared to everyone there. That includes SSJ Gohan.

[Saiga]

So... Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo? He could finish the whole army in an instant but Piccolo is struggling against Shisami.

Spoiler:

Piccolo is having a hard time against Shisami, the best warrior in Freeza’s army.

Sorbet: “I-I can’t believe it!...These guys are…!”
Freeza: “There’s nothing surprising about it. If he felt like it, Son Goku’s son over there could finish them all in an instant.

Sorbet: “I'm-Impossible…Even Shisami’s no match…”
Freeza: “You’ve only ever seen videos of Super Saiyans, so you can’t really know how fearsome they truly are. Still, I didn’t expect that the son would also be able to transform.”

I was actually wondering about this as well. Even if you say Freeza's not taking about Shisami (which doesn't make sense with what he says), he clearly thinks base Gohan can wipe out the whole army... and says nothing of the sort about anyone else, making it sound like Gohan's supposed to be the only one capable of it (especially since Piccolo doesn't have a reason not to kill).

Personally, I think it's just a case of not thinking it entirely through - Gohan gets the line because he's the strongest of the group, but it's a mistake having Freeza say that before he actually shows the form that makes him the strongest in the group.

It's pretty interesting, though.

[supercat]

So... Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo? He could finish the whole army in an instant but Piccolo is struggling against Shisami.

Spoiler:

Piccolo is having a hard time against Shisami, the best warrior in Freeza’s army.

Sorbet: “I-I can’t believe it!...These guys are…!”
Freeza: “There’s nothing surprising about it. If he felt like it, Son Goku’s son over there could finish them all in an instant.

Sorbet: “I'm-Impossible…Even Shisami’s no match…”
Freeza: “You’ve only ever seen videos of Super Saiyans, so you can’t really know how fearsome they truly are. Still, I didn’t expect that the son would also be able to transform.”

I was actually wondering about this as well. Even if you say Freeza's not taking about Shisami (which doesn't make sense with what he says), he clearly thinks base Gohan can wipe out the whole army... and says nothing of the sort about anyone else, making it sound like Gohan's supposed to be the only one capable of it (especially since Piccolo doesn't have a reason not to kill).

Personally, I think it's just a case of not thinking it entirely through - Gohan gets the line because he's the strongest of the group, but it's a mistake having Freeza say that before he actually shows the form that makes him the strongest in the group.

It's pretty interesting, though.

It's hard to tell because not much has been thoroughly elaborated regarding this. However, if Frieza is still unable to sense Ki and if scouters have not been used, it could be safe to assume that Frieza simply assumed Gohan would be superior to Piccolo. This conclusion could have been drawn from Frieza's knowledge of Saiyans having the ability to grow in strength rather quickly compared to other beings.

Another theory is, since Gohan is stronger than Piccolo when they are both at their max, in their suppressed forms it could simply be that he still holds the edge in power. This does not necessarily mean Base Gohan can defeat Piccolo, it just means Piccolo chooses to be at a lower power compared to Gohan. Additionally, including SSJ Gohan has a lot more power to suppress than Piccolo, meaning he may consistently be at a higher level (suppressed) on a regular basis. The level Piccolo keeps himself at consistently may be lower than Gohan's. For instance Gohan may suppress down to 20,000, while Piccolo may suppress down to 18,000, but this would still not conclude the fact that Piccolo is weaker than Base Gohan. It could simply be that Piccolo just prefers to stay at a lower level when fighting the grunts since at that point they are one shot material anyway. Therefore, slight fluctuations / differences in power would make no difference at all. This theory of suppression could also perhaps be applicable towards the whole Dabura luring the three Saiyans to the ship.

[Vice]

Uh, that doesn't at all imply that base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo. He clearly says that Super Saiyan Gohan has the power to wipe out his army, he just never would have guessed that Gohan would be able to transform into a Super Saiyan based on his prior knowledge of him until he had seen it for himself.

[supercat]

I never said it implies that Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo. I meant to say that Frieza probably assumed Gohan was stronger than Piccolo because his knowledge on the power increases Saiyans can obtain. The other point I meant to get across was that the suppressed power of Piccolo may be lower than Gohan's, but at their max Piccolo could very well be superior to Base Gohan. This is also probably more than likely the case if we go with what Beerus said regarding base Goku not being able to defeat Frieza in BoG. We know that Piccolo is stronger than Frieza prior to his training, so that would put him above the Base Saiyans.

[Saiga]

Uh, that doesn't at all imply that base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo. He clearly says that Super Saiyan Gohan has the power to wipe out his army, he just never would have guessed that Gohan would be able to transform into a Super Saiyan based on his prior knowledge of him until he had seen it for himself.

How? He says the quote before Gohan turns Super Saiyan.

[Hugo Boss]

I never said it implies that Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo. I meant to say that Freeza probably assumed Gohan was stronger than Piccolo because his knowledge on the power increases Saiyans can obtain. The other point I meant to get across was that the suppressed power of Piccolo may be lower than Gohan's, but at their max Piccolo could very well be superior to Base Gohan. This is also probably more than likely the case if we go with what Beerus said regarding base Goku not being able to defeat Freeza in BoG. We know that Piccolo is stronger than Freeza prior to his training, so that would put him above the Base Saiyans.

Did Freeza assume Gohan was stronger than Piccolo? Wasn't he just using Gohan as an example?

Well, Piccolo has trouble with Shisame, so I wouldn't be so sure his status remains the same as when he fought the androids. He is implied to be weaker than even Recoome now or there is probably one minor detail that I'm missing.

[ZombieVito]

I never said it implies that Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo. I meant to say that Freeza probably assumed Gohan was stronger than Piccolo because his knowledge on the power increases Saiyans can obtain. The other point I meant to get across was that the suppressed power of Piccolo may be lower than Gohan's, but at their max Piccolo could very well be superior to Base Gohan. This is also probably more than likely the case if we go with what Beerus said regarding base Goku not being able to defeat Freeza in BoG. We know that Piccolo is stronger than Freeza prior to his training, so that would put him above the Base Saiyans.

Did Freeza assume Gohan was stronger than Piccolo? Wasn't he just using Gohan as an example?

Well, Piccolo has trouble with Shisame, so I wouldn't be so sure his status remains the same as when he fought the androids. He is implied to be weaker than even Recoome now or there is probably one minor detail that I'm missing.

So Base Gohan is weaker than Recoome?

It's obvious Shisami trained and surpassed Cell Junior tier.

[Saiga]

If Base Gohan is weaker than a Zarbon-tier Shisami, then Super Saiyan Gohan would be weaker than Freeza's 1.3 million mentioned in the script.

Toriyama DID say he was free to change things.

[supercat]

I never said it implies that Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo. I meant to say that Freeza probably assumed Gohan was stronger than Piccolo because his knowledge on the power increases Saiyans can obtain. The other point I meant to get across was that the suppressed power of Piccolo may be lower than Gohan's, but at their max Piccolo could very well be superior to Base Gohan. This is also probably more than likely the case if we go with what Beerus said regarding base Goku not being able to defeat Freeza in BoG. We know that Piccolo is stronger than Freeza prior to his training, so that would put him above the Base Saiyans.

Did Freeza assume Gohan was stronger than Piccolo? Wasn't he just using Gohan as an example?

Well, Piccolo has trouble with Shisame, so I wouldn't be so sure his status remains the same as when he fought the androids. He is implied to be weaker than even Recoome now or there is probably one minor detail that I'm missing.

So Base Gohan is weaker than Recoome?

It's obvious Shisami trained and surpassed Cell Junior tier.

Freeza may or may not have been assuming Gohan was stronger than Piccolo. Gohan being used as an example may very well have been the case. It seems highly unlikely that Base Gohan is above Piccolo, when the former doesn't train, and it has been strongly implied that his strength declined. With that being said either him or Piccolo being Zarbon level is highly unlikely.

There was no indication or any real evidence at all to suggest that Piccolo had lost power since the Cell Games / Buu Arc. Apparently he kept up with his training, and whether that training was vigorous is another topic. Regardless of the intensity of training he decided to leverage, I doubt he would have lost so much strength that he gets pummeled by an enemy who is on par with Zarbon.

Shisami training to reach Cell Junior tier seems to be the most practical assumption. Being one of their elites, it doesn't seem that out of the ordinary that he would have had the motivation to train to at least have a chance in taking down some of Son Goku's friends.

[Hugo Boss]

So Base Gohan is weaker than Recoome?

It's obvious Shisami trained and surpassed Cell Junior tier.

I can't say about Base Gohan, but Piccolo seems to be as strong as someone around Zarbon-Dodoria-lvl. Actually, your suggestion probably would fix the issue, but I checked the detailed synopsis again and there is no mention that Shisame or the other soldiers trained or got stronger since Freeza was revived.

Freeza may or may not have been assuming Gohan was stronger than Piccolo. Gohan being used as an example may very well have been the case. It seems highly unlikely that Base Gohan is above Piccolo, when the former doesn't train, and it has been strongly implied that his strength declined. With that being said either him or Piccolo being Zarbon level is highly unlikely.

There was no indication or any real evidence at all to suggest that Piccolo had lost power since the Cell Games / Buu Arc. Apparently he kept up with his training, and whether that training was vigorous is another topic. Regardless of the intensity of training he decided to leverage, I doubt he would have lost so much strength that he gets pummeled by an enemy who is on par with Zarbon.

Shisami training to reach Cell Junior tier seems to be the most practical assumption. Being one of their elites, it doesn't seem that out of the ordinary that he would have had the motivation to train to at least have a chance in taking down some of Son Goku's friends.

I understand that there is no evidence to assume Piccolo got weaker, but yet Gohan could be as weak as the story implies, no? Getting back to Piccolo, I recall the last time his power was referenced was when Goku said he greatly powered-up after training in the RoSaT, so he should still be Cell Jr-lvl until the end of the manga. If this is the most logical assumption to make about Piccolo, then Zarbon and Dodoria somehow were mistaken to be as strong as this or maybe even 1st form Freeza was revived stronger than Piccolo is, but still weaker than SS Gohan is now.

Though, I admit I have no problem with Shisame training to reach Cell Jr-lvl and his motivation coming from seeing his rival effortlessly killed by someone that was defeteated twice by Super Saiyans that got even stronger over the years.

[supercat]

So Base Gohan is weaker than Recoome?

It's obvious Shisami trained and surpassed Cell Junior tier.

I can't say about Base Gohan, but Piccolo seems to be as strong as someone around Zarbon-Dodoria-lvl. Actually, your suggestion probably would fix the issue, but I checked the detailed synopsis again and there is no mention that Shisame or the other soldiers trained or got stronger since Freeza was revived.

Freeza may or may not have been assuming Gohan was stronger than Piccolo. Gohan being used as an example may very well have been the case. It seems highly unlikely that Base Gohan is above Piccolo, when the former doesn't train, and it has been strongly implied that his strength declined. With that being said either him or Piccolo being Zarbon level is highly unlikely.

There was no indication or any real evidence at all to suggest that Piccolo had lost power since the Cell Games / Buu Arc. Apparently he kept up with his training, and whether that training was vigorous is another topic. Regardless of the intensity of training he decided to leverage, I doubt he would have lost so much strength that he gets pummeled by an enemy who is on par with Zarbon.

Shisami training to reach Cell Junior tier seems to be the most practical assumption. Being one of their elites, it doesn't seem that out of the ordinary that he would have had the motivation to train to at least have a chance in taking down some of Son Goku's friends.

I understand that there is no evidence to assume Piccolo got weaker, but yet Gohan could be as weak as the story implies, no? Getting back to Piccolo, I recall the last time his power was referenced was when Goku said he greatly powered-up after training in the RoSaT, so he should still be Cell Jr-lvl until the end of the manga. If this is the most logical assumption to make about Piccolo, then Zarbon and Dodoria somehow were mistaken to be as strong as this or maybe even 1st form Freeza was revived stronger than Piccolo is, but still weaker than SS Gohan is now.

Though, I admit I have no problem with Shisame training to reach Cell Jr-lvl and his motivation coming from seeing his rival effortlessly killed by someone that was defeteated twice by Super Saiyans that got even stronger over the years.

If only they showed that Shisami trained and/or didn't ever mention Zarbon or Dodoria.. But hey, I'm actually enjoying these debates!

At the very worst, I could see Piccolo staying at Cell Jr. level. However, going by the fact that he trained (though possibly with very low intensity), it would seem reasonable to now put him above this. He is still merged with Nail, and Nail himself was far superior to both Zarbon and Dodoria. Therefore, to me no matter how many different ways we look at this, there is no way Piccolo at this point is anywhere near Zarbon and Dodoria.

Shisami training also makes sense, as it's likely that they would have all been aware of the Z-Senshi having several members who are at the very least far above the likes of the Ginyu Force. Because it also appeared Freeza had planned to have his men fight the Z-Senshi and attack earth as he takes on Son Goku, it seems pretty reasonable that an elite who is only on par with Zarbon would train to be ready to take on enemies who are likely far above the Ginyu Force. We all know how Zarbon compares to the Ginyu Force...

[Hugo Boss]

Maybe I should have phrased differently, but I believe the fandom in general has a good memory of how powerful were Dragon Ball characters back then. Not to be disrespectable with that memory or to criticize Mr. Toriyama, I just suspect he accidentally changed things regarding powerlevels to give some screen time to secondary characters, which I honestly see as an interesting way to go by now.

[supercat]

Maybe I should have phrased differently, but I believe the fandom in general has a good memory of how powerful were Dragon Ball characters back then. Not to be disrespectable with that memory or to criticize Mr. Toriyama, I just suspect he accidentally changed things regarding powerlevels to give some screen time to secondary characters, which I honestly see as an interesting way to go by now.

I understand Mr. Toriyama changing things as he pleases and accordingly. With that being said, I always prefer to approach discussions like this from an In-Universe angle. However, no disrespect to anyone, but for this particular case, reducing Piccolo to Zarbon tier doesn't exactly seem like the best way of giving him screen time as a secondary character right? Aside from the creator changing things around, what would your In-Universe theory on this be?

[jcogginsa]

wasn't piccolo exhausted by that point?

[supercat]

wasn't piccolo exhausted by that point?

That could have played a minor role, but it seems unlikely that was the determining factor for the outcome of his battle with Shisami. Piccolo was holding back and fighting a bunch of grunts that he could have easily destroyed with one or two Ki blasts if he chose do so. As suppressed as he was, and as weak as his opponents were, it seems extremely unlikely that brushing aside a few grunts would have reduced his power to the point of not being able to take on a Zarbon level enemy. That's like saying Frieza prior to training (who is weaker than Piccolo) could be taken down by his elites (Zarbon and Dodoria) if enough grunts tire him out.