Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[singsing]

It appears that Vegeta still trains on a regular basis in Super whereas Goku needs to get permission from Chi Chi and spends most of his time farming. I'd like to think that Vegeta might actually have an edge on Goku in their normal states now.

Weirdly enough, the last time this happened with Goku and Piccolo at the start of DBZ, Goku apparently still had an edge on Vegeta despite raising Gohan.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Weirdly enough, the last time this happened with Goku and Piccolo at the start of DBZ, Goku apparently still had an edge on Vegeta despite raising Gohan.

I assume you mean Piccolo.

One could argue Piccolo spent a large portion of the time skip developing the Makankosappo to use against Goku and that's why he couldn't surpass Goku in power. It's admittedly reaching, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

[singsing]

Weirdly enough, the last time this happened with Goku and Piccolo at the start of DBZ, Goku apparently still had an edge on Vegeta despite raising Gohan.

I assume you mean Piccolo.

One could argue Piccolo spent a large portion of the time skip developing the Makankosappo to use against Goku and that's why he couldn't surpass Goku in power. It's admittedly reaching, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

It's possible, but one would think doing maybe some light workouts/literally nothing for several years would dip weaker than someone who intensely developed a new fighting technique.

[MaGyunia]

It may also have to do with the fact that Goku is a Saiya-jin (and a particularly gifted one), hence he possesses a natural set of advantages over members/warriors of other races, when it comes to fighting/martial arts. There's the Oozaru, there's the Zenkais, there's the natural tendency and gift for fighting and manipulation of Ki, etc. The Namek-sei-jin, especially the warrior-types, are quite gifted martial artists too, but in general that's not what the race's most defining trait is, but rather the ability to be powerful yet peaceful, the Dragon Balls, the ability to conjure objects out of nowhere, the ability to regenerate, the ability to heal others, etc. Piccolo, due to his sheer history (both before and especially AFTER he became a reluctant part of the team) is a complete separate case, he was raised on Earth, went through an almost endless string of changes (his father split in two, he took on all the characteristics and memories from him, and then he fused with the one his father split from again) and, just like Tenshinhan, Krillin and Yamcha, despite being unable to keep up with Goku, Vegeta or Gohan, is at some temporary points the strongest among the team, is keen on martial arts, is extremely proud and has reached an immense level of power during the Freeza and Jinzouningen arcs (training with Kaiou-sama, fusing with Nail, training intensively for 3 more years for the Jinzouningen, fusing with Kami and training intensively in the RoSaT for the Cell Games).

It's just natural that in the later stages of DB (Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr. arcs), Goku and Piccolo (and Kami) are far beyond anyone else, due to their then-unknown alien origins. It's quite an encounter and indeed a fantastic coincidence that both of them happened to be sent to the same planet, Earth, although for different purposes, which set the stage for their showdown hundreds of years after the catalyst for Piccolo originally leaving Namek.

Before Vegeta takes on the role of main rival of Goku's, Piccolo used to be the one, but not for long. He keeps up with him at close range during their showdown in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and when Raditz appears, but after Goku trains with Kaiou-sama (and thus achieves an enormous power-up and acquires the Kaio-Ken and Genkidama techniques) he's just far beyond anyone else from the team, including Piccolo, who was kind of focused on developing Gohan's hidden power for the upcoming battle with Vegeta and Nappa. He ends up being killed, but manages to gain an enormous power-up which allows him to be on the level of Vegeta, Goku and some of Freeza's stages after fusing with Nail; after that, he manages yet again to keep up with (and indeed surpass) the "regular" Super Saiya-jin stages of Goku, Vegeta and Mirai no Trunks (and consequently Freeza) after fusing with Kami, putting him on par with warriors who beat the shit out of Vegeta, for example (#17, #18). For a number of episodes in the early Cell arc, he's not only on par with #17 and #18, he's close to #16 and Cell, and far beyond the Saiya-jin, who were off in Kami's Lookout to undergo a year-worth of training to surpass the regular Super Saiya-jin form. After that, and only in terms of sheer power, he's rather quickly rendered obsolete as a warrior as well, being absolutely unable to keep up with Goku, Vegeta and Gohan by the Majin Buu arc (he doesn't even fight in the entire arc, is stuck teaching the Fusion to the kids and the only land he blows is on a defenseless Babidi, cutting him in half and actually even failing to kill him). He doesn't even appear in Movies 12 and 13, which just goes to show the degree of importance they cease to put on him at that time, which in turn also has to do with the fact he just can't keep with up the massive power of Goku, Vegeta and Gohan as Super Saiya-jin 2 anymore.

It could be argued that Piccolo, despite remaining EXTREMELY powerful, has reached (or actually gone far beyond) his natural limits as a warrior after the several power-ups he went through in the Freeza, Jinzouningen and Cell arcs, which allowed him to keep with up Super Saiya-jins like Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Gohan, and up cyborgs who had thrashed them. He most likely lacks the ability to go any further than that, but, for a Namek-sei-jin, his level of power is more than impressive, it's absolutely fantastic.

Quick note: it's funny how Vegeta - again - proclaims to have surpassed Kakarotto and become the strongest in the Universe once again, and in a matter of a few episodes is overcome by quite a large list of warriors: Piccolo, #17, #18, #16, Cell, and is only slightly above Goku and Mirai no Trunks. Despite his massive power-ups after the RoSaT intense training, he gets surpassed once again by Cell, Trunks, Goku and even Gohan. However, his ability to keep obsessively training, as a pure Saiya-jin, does drive him to keep surpassing his and other warriors' limits and keep up with the strongest of the fighters in each arc and at each particular time. Unlike Piccolo, he's a major protagonist in the Majin Buu arc, even in terms of power, managed to skip the gap between his previous Cell arc strongest stage and that of teen Gohan and Cell by actually achieving Super Saiya-jin 2 himself, allows himself to be possessed by Babidi to gain yet another increase in power and appears to have stopped there in terms of power boosts until he goes Super Saiya-jin God, Saiya-jin beyond God and Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin, basically allowing him to surpass and skip the enormous and increasing gap between him, Ultimate Gohan, Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, all the versions of Majin/Super/Kid Buu, Gotenks and Vegitto, effectively and finally putting him on par with Goku and in the leagues of Beerus, Whis and Golden Freeza.

Regarding the training you were referring to and discussing, I think that going through a lesser amount of training doesn't necessarily produce hindrances to a warrior's progress in power. It's actually about both the intensiveness of the training and how gifted they are. Besides, Goku was never really restrained from training seriously and constantly despite Chi Chi's constant nagging.

You were talking about the 5 year gap between the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and the arrival of Raditz (beginning of DBZ); Piccolo is still slightly below Goku in terms of power, but when they tap into their strongest recesses of power and increase their Ki (as measured by Raditz's scouter), when performing their trademark techniques, Piccolo does manage to overcome Goku with his Makankosappo, which was originally intended to kill Goku and most likely took quite a lot of time, thought and effort to develop. It's funny that it actually ended up succeeding in its original purpose, since it DOES kill Goku along with his brother.

[Bullza]

I missed the first half of the latest episode so I don't k ow how the others faired but was there more to Gohan than him losing in 2 seconds after being whacked by Buu because if not that's hilarious

At least in the movie he was able to grab him.

[dbgtFO]

I missed the first half of the latest episode so I don't k ow how the others faired but was there more to Gohan than him losing in 2 seconds after being whacked by Buu because if not that's hilarious

At least in the movie he was able to grab him.

Nope, that's all Gohan got.
Gotenks didn't even turn Super Saiyan

[Bullza]

He's becoming almost as useless as Yamcha. I'm glad I don't particularly care for the character because if I was a Gohan fan I'd be pissed.

Effortlessly stomped by Beerus in Battle of Gods, didn't even get to throw a punch before getting one shotted in this episode, got one shotted by Frieza in his weakest form and lost his Mystic powers. All he's done in ages is beat some fodder and Shisami.

I don't know why they even continue to use the character anymore.

[Sora Saiyan]

I guess the only thing it's shown "In-universe" is that everybody is pathetic compared to Beerus when he's pissing about. It doesn't seem to matter if you're Ten, Piccolo, Goku or Gohan. It's all just practically equally insignificant in comparison. Well that's the idea I've gotten anyway.

[MaGyunia]

He's becoming almost as useless as Yamcha. I'm glad I don't particularly care for the character because if I was a Gohan fan I'd be pissed.

Effortlessly stomped by Beerus in Battle of Gods, didn't even get to throw a punch before getting one shotted in this episode, got one shotted by Freeza in his weakest form and lost his Mystic powers. All he's done in ages is beat some fodder and Shisami.

I don't know why they even continue to use the character anymore.

Except Yamcha IS useless and has become obsolete as a warrior - in terms of power and even relevance - since the Saiya-jin arc, whereas Gohan is arguably the Saiya-jin with the most potential inside of him and just months prior to DBSuper achieved a power-up which put him on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and above several versions of Majin/Super Buu, automatically and effectively making him one of the strongest warriors who has ever existed. You can't go from that to . He's not a full-fledged Saiya-jin, he lacks the maniacal desire to train and fight, but goddamn it, at least before that he was keen on helping out as a kid/teenager and went against his mother's constant nagging on numerous occasions, while in recent years he basically has given up to it and decided himself he wanted to be a "renowned scholar" instead of developing his IMMENSE potential, which I'd go as far as postulate that could make him - with the proper training and circumstances - the most powerful being who has ever lived.

I honestly don't know whether or not the decision to depict him in this miserable way not only as a warrior/fighter, but as a character, is deliberate or not; it could very well be deliberate in order to make (even) more room for Vegeta to be the one to keep up with Goku in terms of power, matching it to his degree of (co-)protagonism, but either they're deliberately making him appear to have lost all of his fighting instincts and maybe even most of his previously immense power, or they just forgot how powerful he was during the Cell Games and the Majin Buu arc (beyond Vegeta at his strongest - Super Saiya-jin 2 -, beyond most versions of Majin/Super Buu, beyond Gotenks, on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, not to mention everyone else below these).

It's not that he would stand a chance against Beerus anyway, that's not what's bugging us; NOBODY stands a chance against Beerus at this current, specific point. Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku was miserably destroyed, and so was fat Majin Buu, let alone the likes of Piccolo, #18 or, even more so, Tenshinhan. Some of us are pissed off - I'm not, because I've never been a Gohan fan except for the badass way he went insane on the Cell Juniors and Cell himself - and some others are just disappointed or shocked, the latter being much closer to my personal case. At least let the guy throw a few punches and kicks, or even some Ki attacks. Was it really necessary to render him out of commission without letting him even TOUCH Beerus? If this was the early Majin Buu arc, inside of Babidi's ship, and after the fight with Dabura, Vegeta wouldn't scold him for neglecting his training, he would right away KILL him.

I don't if we're supposed to be disappointed and somewhat angry at Gohan himself as a character or actually at the ones who chose to portray him this way.

[Sora Saiyan]

Beerus seemed capable of damaging Boo physically, and rendering him incapable of fighting back.. That's a new feat.. sorta. Boo's only been harmed like that by Pure Boo prior to this.

[Chiki]

So he's the tier list of the Z Fighters for now, in order of power:

SHG Yamcha
SSJ3 Goku
SSJ3 Gotenks
SSJ2 Vegeta
Piccolo
Android 18
Goten/Trunks
Tien
Krillin
Bulma
GOHAN

Gohan is fucking pathetic. He got swatted like a fly and even BULMA landed a hit on Beerus. What a loser.

[Cetra]

So he's the tier list of the Z Fighters for now, in order of power:

SHG Yamcha
SSJ3 Goku
SSJ3 Gotenks
SSJ2 Vegeta
Piccolo
Android 18
Goten/Trunks
Tenshinhan
Krillin
Bulma
GOHAN

Gohan is fucking pathetic. He got swatted like a fly and even BULMA landed a hit on Beerus. What a loser.

You forgot Sorbet's ring on top.

[Bullza]

SSJ3 Goku over SSJ3 Gotenks?

[LightBing]

SSJ3 Goku over SSJ3 Gotenks?

Why would that be the case? The power rankings appear to have stayed the same after the Buu Saga, with Goku and Vegeta probably getting a bit stronger, but not enough to catch up to anyone. It was only passed six months to a year.
I don't see how getting defeated in one, instead of two hits, proves A character now is stronger than B character;it's established that Beerus is likely stronger than Vegetto, so he can take everyone out swiftly, if he so desires.

[dbgtFO]

SSJ3 Goku over SSJ3 Gotenks?

Why would that be the case? The power rankings appear to have stayed the same after the Buu Saga, with Goku and Vegeta probably getting a bit stronger, but not enough to catch up to anyone. It was only passed six months to a year.
I don't see how getting defeated in one, instead of two hits, proves A character now is stronger than B character;it's established that Beerus is likely stronger than Vegetto, so he can take everyone out swiftly, if he so desires.

The Buu Arc according to the anime has Goku as the strongest(by virtue of Kid Buu outclassing every other Buu). There's zero reason to think Gohan and Gotenks are stronger than Vegeta and Goku, even before SSG, as Vegeta and Goku are the main characters after all.

[Birusu16]

SSJ3 Goku over SSJ3 Gotenks?

Why would that be the case? The power rankings appear to have stayed the same after the Buu Saga, with Goku and Vegeta probably getting a bit stronger, but not enough to catch up to anyone. It was only passed six months to a year.
I don't see how getting defeated in one, instead of two hits, proves A character now is stronger than B character;it's established that Beerus is likely stronger than Vegetto, so he can take everyone out swiftly, if he so desires.

The Buu Arc according to the anime has Goku as the strongest(by virtue of Kid Buu outclassing every other Buu). There's zero reason to think Gohan and Gotenks are stronger than Vegeta and Goku, even before SSG, as Vegeta and Goku are the main characters after all.

The BoGs story follows the manga, not the anime (Toriyama himself said he wrote BoGs as if he were continuing the manga). Just because it's in anime format doesn't make that any less true. So yes, Gohan and Gotenks are stronger than Goku and Vegeta until the latter attain SSJG.

[LightBing]

SSJ3 Goku over SSJ3 Gotenks?

Why would that be the case? The power rankings appear to have stayed the same after the Buu Saga, with Goku and Vegeta probably getting a bit stronger, but not enough to catch up to anyone. It was only passed six months to a year.
I don't see how getting defeated in one, instead of two hits, proves A character now is stronger than B character;it's established that Beerus is likely stronger than Vegetto, so he can take everyone out swiftly, if he so desires.

The Buu Arc according to the anime has Goku as the strongest(by virtue of Kid Buu outclassing every other Buu). There's zero reason to think Gohan and Gotenks are stronger than Vegeta and Goku, even before SSG, as Vegeta and Goku are the main characters after all.

I was thinking about the manga, and don't remember clearly, that part of the anime. Which contradicts itself, by disregarding past actions on the Buu arc. They being main characters has no relation to their power, Beerus and Whis aren't main characters and are both stronger than Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta was stronger than Goku in the android arc, Piccolo too and Gohan during Cell.

[MaGyunia]

SSJ3 Goku over SSJ3 Gotenks?

And why not? Goku as a Super Saiya-jin 3 on Earth during the Majin Buu arc didn't kill fat Majin Buu and ended the saga right there because he wanted the living ones (the "next generation") to take care of their own business and go through tough times, train and get stronger to keep the Earth in peace against stronger and stronger opponents. While it's true that the Majin Buu version Gotenks, as a Super Saiya-jin 3, fought was stronger than the fat version, I've always viewed SSJ3 Goku as stronger than base Super Buu (as in, with no one absorbed), since I put Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku at the same exact level as that of Ultimate Gohan, who THRASHED that same exact Super Buu, which Gotenks failed to do.

Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan are both stronger than Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks. If not fact, near certainty.

I wonder if Goku blasting Cell's head off can be used to tell how strong he is.

That wasn't even what could be called or deemed "mind-training", it was just Goku thinking about his previous fights.

Why would that be the case? The power rankings appear to have stayed the same after the Buu Saga, with Goku and Vegeta probably getting a bit stronger, but not enough to catch up to anyone. It was only passed six months to a year.
I don't see how getting defeated in one, instead of two hits, proves A character now is stronger than B character;it's established that Beerus is likely stronger than Vegetto, so he can take everyone out swiftly, if he so desires.

The quickness or way in which a fighter is KO'd or rendered out of commission when compared to another doesn't necessarily tell how much of a difference, if any, there is between them, we need to take into account the entire circumstances in which they fight from all possible angles.

Beerus is not "likely" stronger than Vegitto, he IS stronger than Vegitto. Even Goku himself says in the aftermath of his miserable fight at Kaiou-sama's planet against Beerus, both in BoG and in DBSuper's version of the events, that not even a fusion (whether through the dance - Gogeta - or through the Potara method - Vegitto) would be enough to stand up to Beerus.

This is my list of warriors from strongest to weakest in the Majin Buu arc, ALL of which are below Beerus and Whis (and, until further notice, no one else except Golden Freeza, Super Saiya-jin God Goku and Super Saiya-jin God Vegeta):
1 - Vegitto (about twice as strong as Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan, the strongest warrior in all of DBZ)
2 - Super Buu (with Ultimate Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed)
3 - Super Buu (with SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)
4 - Kid Buu
5 - Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku (on par with Ultimate Gohan)
6 - Ultimate Gohan (on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku)
7 - Super Buu
8 - Evil Buu
9 - Majin Buu
10 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku
11 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Vegeta
12 - Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan
13 - Dabura
14 - Kaioshin

By the way, just because Kid Buu "happens" to be the most fearsome and DANGEROUS of characters due to the sheer nature of his destructive and sociopathic personality, it doesn't necessarily or automatically mean he's the strongest version of Majin Buu. He's more dangerous, since he doesn't hesitate in destroying anything or anyone just because he feels like it, but in terms of power he's below other versions of Super Buu.

The only way someone can make the claim that Goku is the strongest warrior there is during or after the Majin Buu saga is if we count non-fused good guys only, or alternatively if we count only non-fused warriors, in which case it could be still be argued that Ultimate Gohan is at least on par with him and that Kid Buu might also be slightly stronger.

Since Vegitto only appears for a few episodes, never to be seen again, and Majin Buu and all of his versions are wiped out when Kid Buu is defeated, then yeah, at the very start of DBSuper Goku, at his Super Saiya-jin 3 stage, and on par with Ultimate Gohan, is the strongest warrior on Earth and below only Beerus and Whis in the entire Universe.

And yeah, Vegeta is THAT low on the scale, but that will soon be fixed and his degree of power will be deliberately matched to his degree of (co-)protagonism in DBSuper, surpassing Gohan, all versions of Majin Buu, Gotenks and Vegitto, when he achieves Super Saiya-jin God and then Super Saiya-jin God Super Saiya-jin God, effectively and finally setting him on par/close to Goku in the same respective stage(s) and slightly below the Beerus + Whis duo.

[Hugo Boss]

SSJ3 Goku over SSJ3 Gotenks?

As the things are now, it seems Boo is the strongest fighter on Bulma's ship, but none of them have shown interesting stuff to Beerus yet. Let's see if Vegeta causes some impression next episode.

[rereboy]

The Buu Arc according to the anime has Goku as the strongest(by virtue of Kid Buu outclassing every other Buu). There's zero reason to think Gohan and Gotenks are stronger than Vegeta and Goku, even before SSG, as Vegeta and Goku are the main characters after all.

The same reasons for Gotenks and Gohan being stronger than Goku that exist in the manga exist in the anime. The anime just added a few contradicting statements. At most, we can argue that there is a case to argue both sides in the anime, not that there's definitely just one conclusion like you seem to be claiming.