Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Darkprince410]

I misread that one part, but it's still not a very sound theory. If both Goku and Vegeta had somehow become 50x stronger as a result of the fusion of Vegetto wearing off, then Goku wouldn't have had any issue with fighting Evil Buu, yet he's still clearly too scared to even attempt it. Likewise, don't you think either of them would have noticed that they suddenly became that much stronger? Even if you tried to make the argument that they wouldn't have noticed inside Buu's body, the moment they left and became full size again, there'd be no reason for them to not notice they had become stronger if they actually did.

[Captain Space]

Problem with this explanation is that the line where Goku says he's still weaker than Super Buu is after they defuse.

Which doesn't contradict the fact that they are still at base or SSJ ^_^

But if they could get stronger than Super Buu by transforming, he wouldn't be like, "Oh, we can't go out and fight him, we're too weak, let's stay in here and find some way of sabotaging him from within". He'd be like, "Hey, let's power up and go beat the crap out of him."

[Truhan]

I edited my post. Check the last part, because I'm admitting to the joke.

It was a joke, either way, because if Goku is 50 times stronger, than his SSJ would be 2.500 times stronger than his Base state before Vegito, which not even SSJ3 would touch.

[Darkprince410]

#1 fighter can only be interpreted one way because it's not contradicted. The secondary statement has also been covered by me. Vegeta makes a clear distinction between Earth and the UNIVERSE.

No, he didn't make a clear distinction at all, and no, it can't merely be interpreted one way. We have clear precedence that he's used "#1" before to reference Goku in a way other than being the strongest, and we have him here calling Goku #1, referencing a battle that Goku won without using his own strength to do it (as he used a technique that uses the genki of everyone else he draws from). So in both cases that he referred to Goku as #1 there, they couldn't have been about Goku's strength.

[h0kuten]

Not a very good explanation, given that Vegeta was also in his base form when fusing with Goku.

#1 fighter can only be interpreted one way because it's not contradicted. The secondary statement has also been covered by me. Vegeta makes a clear distinction between Earth and the UNIVERSE.

No, he didn't make a clear distinction at all, and no, it can't merely be interpreted one way. We have clear precedence that he's used "#1" before to reference Goku in a way other than being the strongest, and we have him here calling Goku #1, referencing a battle that Goku won without using his own strength to do it (as he used a technique that uses the genki of everyone else he draws from). So in both cases that he referred to Goku as #1 there, they couldn't have been about Goku's strength.

He did make a clear distinction between whom he knows about and what he doesn't know about. The #1 statement from the Manga is in the 'strength checker' and it's not a reference to strength? Lol, I'm not trying to be rude but it sounds a little funny to me.

Anyways, Vegeta makes a very, very clear distinction between the fighters he knows about and calling Goku #1 on 2 separate occasions, but doesn't refer to the mighty Gohan in both occasions. Not to mention the distinction made between whom he knows about and the Universe, which quite clearly includes Beerus or the possibility of other supreme fighters such as Majin Buu.

[MisterGuyMan]

Vegeta's statement in Dragonball Super uses the phrase "no doubt" so if Gohan really is more powerful than Goku then that's a legitimate doubt. Also note that this isn't a boxing lineal championship belt that Goku acquired by beating Buu. Goku is #1 AFTER he beat Kid Buu not necessarily BECAUSE he beat Buu.

Gohan and Gotenks, according to Goku's initial gauge of the plan, were going to help each other fight Kid Buu even if not Goku himself. Goku later states that everyone would have died without Satan and Fat Buu helping out which further eliminates the possibility that Gohan or Gotenks could solo Kid Buu easily.

Theres also this:
"Goku fought with the revived Buu. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe"
http://web.archive.org/web/201111031605 ... drama#link

If we're talking realistically it's likely Toriyama had no idea where the story was going. After Kid Buu appeared, however, all the evidence points to Kid Buu and Goku being stronger. Theres also that line with Buu gaining power after Fat Buu was cut free.

[h0kuten]

Vegeta's statement in Dragonball Super uses the phrase "no doubt" so if Gohan really is more powerful than Goku then that's a legitimate doubt. Also note that this isn't a boxing lineal championship belt that Goku acquired by beating Buu. Goku is #1 AFTER he beat Kid Buu not necessarily BECAUSE he beat Buu.

Gohan and Gotenks, according to Goku's initial gauge of the plan, were going to help each other fight Kid Buu even if not Goku himself. Goku later states that everyone would have died without Satan and Fat Buu helping out which further eliminates the possibility that Gohan or Gotenks could solo Kid Buu easily.

Theres also this:
"Goku fought with the revived Buu. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe"
http://web.archive.org/web/201111031605 ... drama#link

If we're talking realistically it's likely Toriyama had no idea where the story was going. After Kid Buu appeared, however, all the evidence points to Kid Buu and Goku being stronger. Theres also that line with Buu gaining power after Fat Buu was cut free.

There is only two issues with this post that I can point out.

a) The increase in power is attributed to Buff Buu.
b) The statement can be twisted (as most likely will) to mean that Majin Buu, as a whole (which includes all variations), is the strongest in the Universe. Not necessarily Kid Buu.

[Darkprince410]

He did make a clear distinction between whom he knows about and what he doesn't know about. The #1 statement from the Manga is in the 'strength checker' and it's not a reference to strength? Lol, I'm not trying to be rude but it sounds a little funny to me.

Anyways, Vegeta makes a very, very clear distinction between the fighters he knows about and calling Goku #1 on 2 separate occasions, but doesn't refer to the mighty Gohan in both occasions. Not to mention the distinction made between whom he knows about and the Universe, which quite clearly includes Beerus or the possibility of other supreme fighters such as Majin Buu.

For starters, it isn't in the strength checker, so Herms didn't consider it an indicator of Goku's strength.

As said, the times he's referred to Goku as #1 has been indicating him to be the best fighter, not the strongest, which is something we can readily agree upon (that Gohan isn't as good a fighter as his father). Likewise, we don't know that Vegeta knows who Beerus is in this continuity of events, since the events of Super aren't corresponding 1:1 with what we saw in Battle of Gods. As such, he may very well not know the existence of Beerus or know how powerful he is.

Besides, without a statement indicating that he was omitting Gohan from his statement, the fact that he indicates there are ones other than Goku he needs to surpass to become the strongest still leaves it open that Gohan is among those he knows he needs to surpass.

Gohan and Gotenks, according to Goku's initial gauge of the plan, were going to help each other fight Kid Buu even if not Goku himself. Goku later states that everyone would have died without Satan and Fat Buu helping out which further eliminates the possibility that Gohan or Gotenks could solo Kid Buu easily.

If Mr. Satan and Mr. Buu hadn't stepped in when they did, Vegeta would have died before he could have come up with the idea to use Namek's Dragon Balls to restore Earth and its people, so if they hadn't helped, then Gohan and the boys would have still been dead, Goku would have most certainly died, Vegeta would have been wiped from existence completely, and then there'd be no fighters at all left to fight Buu.

If we're talking realistically it's likely Toriyama had no idea where the story was going. After Kid Buu appeared, however, all the evidence points to Kid Buu and Goku being stronger. Theres also that line with Buu gaining power after Fat Buu was cut free.

That increase was when Buu reverted from Evil Buu to South Kaioushin Buu. Goku later suggested that Buu's power dropped when he reverted from SK Buu to Pure Buu, meaning that the increase wasn't a continuous process.

It should also be noted that the Dragon Ball Forever guide outright establishes that Buu became weaker when he lost his absorptions, and used the image of Vegeta ripping out Mr. Buu as the accompanying image for that statement. Given the combination of the fact and the image showed, that'd point to Buu becoming weaker when he became Pure Buu.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't think it makes more sense that way. I already pointed out why it makes even less sense. Vegeta makes a distinction between Goku (being the #1 fighter he knows about) and the UNIVERSE.

Vegeta doesn't know anyone stronger than Goku, so to his knowledge, Goku should have been the strongest in the universe.

Beerus fought Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks as well, they can also become gods because they performed the SSJG ritual. Yet he comments about Vegeta's latent potential which is surpassing Ultimate Gohan.

Incorrect. Beerus only talked about Goku's latent power being immeasurable, and said that Goku & Vegeta could become powerful rivals in the future. Gohan & Gotenks didn't do anything impressive. Goku forced him to use 70% of his power as a Super Saiyan God, and proved him that he is a fighting genius through their fight, while Vegeta showed good fighting sense, a huge power-up after getting angry, and has the potential to become a God as well. Gohan & Gotenks just had high battle power, which Beerus probably barely noticed.

Beerus tried to punch Vegeta, yet he was getting bloodied. Beerus didn't allow Vegeta to do anything. Instead he got manhandled.

When Beerus punched Vegeta, he didn't expect him to be as strong as he was. Then after Vegeta's attacks, we see Beerus without any damage being disappointed that this wasn't the Super Saiyan God either, implying that Beerus could have stopped Vegeta if he wanted to, but he didn't.

If that makes more sense to you, then that's cool.

Basically, "Kakarot is #1 after defeating Majin Boo, even though he's far weaker than the only other Saiyan on the planet." Defeating Majin Boo didn't actually make him #1 after all.

Basically, "I've accepted that you're the strongest Saiyan, even though you're far weaker than the other most powerful Saiyan on the world." It's a meaningless statement if other Saiyans aren't being considered. There are no other pure blooded Saiyans out there. Well, except Tarble, but he's a weakling.

Or rather, "By defeating Majin Boo, you proved that you are #1, the strongest full-blooded Saiyan of the two of us". It's only meaningless when you include the Saiyan Halflings when you assume that he isn't including them.

So if Gohan's the actual strongest in the universe, why wouldn't Vegeta acknowledge him as such? What's so special about Gohan that Vegeta can't even mention him by name? He's had no issues acknowledging Gohan before, but now he can't because?

Vegeta isn't talking about the strongest guys in the universe, he is talking again about his rivalry with Goku. Goku is the only relevant person here, not because of his power, but because he is Goku.

He damaged Vegeta a lot during his initial assault as well. The only difference was he caught a second wind and knocked him around when he powered-up. That's outperforming Goku, Gohan, and Gotenks.

He allowed Vegeta to attack him, which is how he saw that he had a good fighting sense. He outperformed Goku both before & after the rage boost.

I'm not. I'm just showing that this stuff isn't clear by any means. Simply going with "Gohan's still the strongest" just misses the point of everything. Hopefully Super will shed better light on it.

That's the point I'm trying to make. The new stuff don't make clear how Goku & Vegeta compare to Gohan & Gotenks, which means we can believe what we want. The manga, however, makes it clear that it is impossible for SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta to surpass U. Gohan & SS3 Gotenks through normal means in such a short time.

Nor do we have anything showing them stronger than Goku or Vegeta in BoG. Vegeta's feats shown (when he surpassed Goku) exceed anything Gohan or Gotenks ever did. How or why doesn't matter. The point is that he did something they weren't shown to be capable of, so there's no reason to assume that they could.

Of course there is a reason. Beerus was heavily suppressed, and his power wasn't stable at one level, it varied levels, otherwise, #18 would have been beheaded by Beerus' hit. If Beerus was at full power, or at least at a stable level, and Vegeta had these feats, then there should be no doubt that Vegeta before the rage boost was stronger than Gohan & Gotenks. But this isn't the case here.

He drew blood and knocked him around. Gohan only managed to stop Beers from beating on Mr. Boo for a second before he's quickly incapacitated. Vegeta doesn't need to be on Beers level, but being beyond Goku, Gohan, and Gotenks makes the most sense. If Gohan and Gotenks were already capable of doing what Vegeta did, it makes the scene totally inconsequential. And for what? To maintain Gohan and Gotenks's superiority?

To tell you the truth, Vegeta surpassing Goku like that makes no sense in the first place, based on what we know, so I wouldn't be surprised if he had surpassed Gohan as well. But even if Vegeta has surpassed Gohan, who was stronger than Goku, it still doesn't prove that Goku is stronger than Gohan. Kame-sennin says that Vegeta finally surpassed Goku, so he is placing emphasis on Goku because he was Vegeta's goal all this time.

Goku returned to earth after training on Kaio's world. They might've thought he could make a difference based on that alone.

Then they might have thought that Goku had surpassed Gohan as well, even though he hadn't.

[h0kuten]

I don't think it makes more sense that way. I already pointed out why it makes even less sense. Vegeta makes a distinction between Goku (being the #1 fighter he knows about) and the UNIVERSE.

Vegeta doesn't know anyone stronger than Goku, so to his knowledge, Goku should have been the strongest in the universe.

The ideology is 'possibility'. Vegeta knows Goku was surpassed by Kid Buu (whom is still the current threshold of power, not Super Buu) and he says he is definitely number one, but makes a distinction between that and the Universe. There is no way around this.

Beerus fought Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks as well, they can also become gods because they performed the SSJG ritual. Yet he comments about Vegeta's latent potential which is surpassing Ultimate Gohan.

Incorrect. Beerus only talked about Goku's latent power being immeasurable, and said that Goku & Vegeta could become powerful rivals in the future. Gohan & Gotenks didn't do anything impressive. Goku forced him to use 70% of his power as a Super Saiyan God, and proved him that he is a fighting genius through their fight, while Vegeta showed good fighting sense, a huge power-up after getting angry, and has the potential to become a God as well. Gohan & Gotenks just had high battle power, which Beerus probably barely noticed.

That is really stretching things for what they were.

Beerus tried to punch Vegeta, yet he was getting bloodied. Beerus didn't allow Vegeta to do anything. Instead he got manhandled.

When Beerus punched Vegeta, he didn't expect him to be as strong as he was. Then after Vegeta's attacks, we see Beerus without any damage being disappointed that this wasn't the Super Saiyan God either, implying that Beerus could have stopped Vegeta if he wanted to, but he didn't.

Beerus got manhandled momentarily.

If that makes more sense to you, then that's cool.

Basically, "Kakarot is #1 after defeating Majin Boo, even though he's far weaker than the only other Saiyan on the planet." Defeating Majin Boo didn't actually make him #1 after all.

Basically, "I've accepted that you're the strongest Saiyan, even though you're far weaker than the other most powerful Saiyan on the world." It's a meaningless statement if other Saiyans aren't being considered. There are no other pure blooded Saiyans out there. Well, except Tarble, but he's a weakling.

Or rather, "By defeating Majin Boo, you proved that you are #1, the strongest full-blooded Saiyan of the two of us". It's only meaningless when you include the Saiyan Halflings when you assume that he isn't including them.

Actually no. See my point above.

So if Gohan's the actual strongest in the universe, why wouldn't Vegeta acknowledge him as such? What's so special about Gohan that Vegeta can't even mention him by name? He's had no issues acknowledging Gohan before, but now he can't because?

Vegeta isn't talking about the strongest guys in the universe, he is talking again about his rivalry with Goku. Goku is the only relevant person here, not because of his power, but because he is Goku.

Again, Vegeta makes a distinction about the current strongest on Earth and the Universe.

He damaged Vegeta a lot during his initial assault as well. The only difference was he caught a second wind and knocked him around when he powered-up. That's outperforming Goku, Gohan, and Gotenks.

He allowed Vegeta to attack him, which is how he saw that he had a good fighting sense. He outperformed Goku both before & after the rage boost.

Beerus commented on Vegeta's fighting sense prior to Vegeta becoming enraged. I also debunked the theory that Vegeta out performed Goku due to the power Beerus displayed in both scenario's.

I'm not. I'm just showing that this stuff isn't clear by any means. Simply going with "Gohan's still the strongest" just misses the point of everything. Hopefully Super will shed better light on it.

That's the point I'm trying to make. The new stuff don't make clear how Goku & Vegeta compare to Gohan & Gotenks, which means we can believe what we want. The manga, however, makes it clear that it is impossible for SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta to surpass U. Gohan & SS3 Gotenks through normal means in such a short time.

It does if you analyse the feats for what they are. There is no such thing as 'impossibility' in Dragonball. Quite frankly, it comes across as a biased statement, in the sense that nothing would convince you other-wise.

Nor do we have anything showing them stronger than Goku or Vegeta in BoG. Vegeta's feats shown (when he surpassed Goku) exceed anything Gohan or Gotenks ever did. How or why doesn't matter. The point is that he did something they weren't shown to be capable of, so there's no reason to assume that they could.

Of course there is a reason. Beerus was heavily suppressed, and his power wasn't stable at one level, it varied levels, otherwise, #18 would have been beheaded by Beerus' hit. If Beerus was at full power, or at least at a stable level, and Vegeta had these feats, then there should be no doubt that Vegeta before the rage boost was stronger than Gohan & Gotenks. But this isn't the case here.

Hercule should have been killed by Kid Buu, after Kid Buu puked out Buu, but he wasn't. So no, the levels don't have to vary. The feats are there so us, the viewers, can determine who is stronger than who.

He drew blood and knocked him around. Gohan only managed to stop Beers from beating on Mr. Boo for a second before he's quickly incapacitated. Vegeta doesn't need to be on Beers level, but being beyond Goku, Gohan, and Gotenks makes the most sense. If Gohan and Gotenks were already capable of doing what Vegeta did, it makes the scene totally inconsequential. And for what? To maintain Gohan and Gotenks's superiority?

To tell you the truth, Vegeta surpassing Goku like that makes no sense in the first place, based on what we know, so I wouldn't be surprised if he had surpassed Gohan as well. But even if Vegeta has surpassed Gohan, who was stronger than Goku, it still doesn't prove that Goku is stronger than Gohan. Kame-sennin says that Vegeta finally surpassed Goku, so he is placing emphasis on Goku because he was Vegeta's goal all this time.

Because Goku is the current threshold of power.

Goku returned to earth after training on Kaio's world. They might've thought he could make a difference based on that alone.

Then they might have thought that Goku had surpassed Gohan as well, even though he hadn't.

[Darkprince410]

The ideology is 'possibility'. Vegeta knows Goku was surpassed by Kid Buu (whom is still the current threshold of power, not Super Buu) and he says he is definitely number one, but makes a distinction between that and the Universe. There is no way around this.

Except Goku didn't beat Buu using his own power at all, so calling Goku #1 for having beaten Buu is clearly indicating something other than Goku's strength.

Beerus got manhandled momentarily.

Then Beerus makes a comment essentially confirming that he let Vegeta beat on him a little bit to see if Vegeta's power spike was due to him becoming a Super Saiya-jin God at that point.

It does if you analyse the feats for what they are. There is no such thing as 'impossibility' in Dragonball. Quite frankly, it comes across as a biased statement, in the sense that nothing would convince you other-wise.

Literally none of the feats though support that Goku is even in the same ballpark as Gohan or Gotenks, let alone stronger than them.

(the H-word) should have been killed by Kid Buu, after Kid Buu puked out Buu, but he wasn't. So no, the levels don't have to vary. The feats are there so us, the viewers, can determine who is stronger than who.

He wasn't because Buu pulled his punch not to just outright kill Mr. Satan. We see he's sadistic, and likes toying with weaker opponents rather than killing them outright, so he's not going to outright kill them if he doesn't want to. Just because you say the feats are there so that we can determine who is stronger than who doesn't mean that's it's actually there for. Besides, as said, given Beerus's confrontation between Goku and his confrontation with Gohan, it's very clear to me that he put considerably more effort into his attacks with Gohan than he did Goku, so obviously he considered Gohan stronger. He had to give Gohan a solid kick to take him out, whereas he had to give a simple tap and a flick to finish Goku off.

Because Goku is the current threshold of power.

Or that Vegeta had simply surpassed Goku during that brief burst, but still fell short of Gohan. Simple.

[Hugo Boss]

Let me see if I understood correctly. At the point Vegeta made that comment, there were 4 Saiyans close to him, with Tarble living far away. If Goku is labelled as the strongest Saiyan, then the next following him are Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks and Goten, all four of them at second place, while Vegeta really has interest in Goku's current spot. So one way of interpret his demeanor is Vegeta saying he will surpass Goku and everyone else in the ranks, since currently in DBS there is no existing person stronger than Goku, except for Beerus, Whis, Champa and ???.

[Hitiro]

He doesn't believe this. He is pointing out the flaw in Turlast's logic. If punching a character deemed their relevance then SSJ2 Vegeta without rage boost is more relevant than SSJ3 Goku because SSJ3 Goku received no such treatment from Beerus. So the fact that Gotenks wasn't punched means nothing.

There is also a problem with his counter-argument. The problem is that Beerus used a-lot more powerful against Goku Ssj3 than he did against ANY of the Z-Fighters. Evidence:

snip

There isn't a problem with this counter argument. Turlast said that Gotenks wasn't relevant enough to be "punched". Going by that standard SSJ2 Vegeta(w/o Rage boost) is more relevant than SSJ3 Goku because he took punches whereas Goku didn't. Regardless of the level of power Beerus put into said moves. But as you well know that is simply not the case. By all accounts Goku is as relevant as Vegeta despite not taking punches. That is the point that was trying to be made. And I'm sorry but saying Beerus used a lot more power against SSJ3 Goku than he did any of the other Z-Fighters is pure speculation. There is really no way to determine this. And why would a pissed off Beerus end up being more restrained against characters who are on par with SSJ3 Goku? That honestly really makes no sense.

People don't realize this small details regarding Battle of Gods so I thought I'd make a gif to prove my point. Beerus is moving so quickly that Goku is looking in the other direction and still reacting to when he heard Beerus teleport. This NEVER happens when Beerus fights the Z-Fighters. All the Z-Fighters are able to at least track the movements of Beerus, meaning Beerus used far far more power against Goku than he did against the Z-Fighters.

Beerus hardly moved during the battle so it isn't hard to follow him. That doesn't mean that Beerus didn't throw powerful blows. Beerus was pissed at this point so he should arguably be holding back less. Even Cell during the Cell games demonstrated he could vary both his speed and strength. When he was fighting Gohan he went all out in speed at one point. That doesn't mean he was using 100% of his strength. Just 100% of his speed.

To prove my argument I'll use two two finger flick scenes. One finger flick is the power Beerus used against Goku in comparison to the Z-Fighters:

snip

vs

snip

Clearly Beerus used a-lot more power against Goku.

This doesn't prove anything really. Because we can easily look at it that Beerus has an aura in the second gif. Therefore he should be using more power. Secondly, the angle of the flick is different. Hence why Boo span on the spot rather than grinding against the floor like Goku did. It is easy enough to come to the conclusion that Boo got a worse hit if you look at it that way. And with the fact that Beerus was pissed off at Boo for eating all the puddings. From the gifs you provided I would say that Boo got hit worse. But that means nothing anyway because Boo is already weaker than SSJ3 Goku. Comparing Goku against a character who is weaker than him doesn't really prove your argument. Because in the likelihood that the first gif was the more powerful feat demonstration all that would mean is that Beerus tried less on a weaker character than Goku. That doesn't mean he didn't try harder on Gohan or Gotenks or even Vegeta.

[MisterGuyMan]

That increase was when Buu reverted from Evil Buu to South Kaioushin Buu. Goku later suggested that Buu's power dropped when he reverted from SK Buu to Pure Buu, meaning that the increase wasn't a continuous process.

The point is that after we see Kid Buu all the evidence is tilted towards him being more powerful that Super. There is evidence of him gaining power but no evidence of him losing it. Southern Kaio Shin was never unabsorbed after all and Buu clearly states he gains the powers of everyone he absorbs.

I also think you can't ignore how Vegeta says "there's no doubt" that Goku is number one. If Gohan can overpower Goku then there's a definite and legitimate doubt that Goku is truly #1. Saying Goku is the top fighter Vegeta knows of in the entire universe without a shadow of doubt... while ignoring the one guy that Vegeta knows can bludgeon Goku to death literally robs the entire sentence of any meaning.

It should also be noted that the Dragon Ball Forever guide outright establishes that Buu became weaker when he lost his absorptions, and used the image of Vegeta ripping out Mr. Buu as the accompanying image for that statement. Given the combination of the fact and the image showed, that'd point to Buu becoming weaker when he became Pure Buu.

Can you link this source please? Just from what you posted though that doesn't sound nearly as definitive as the portion I posted:
"Goku fought with the revived Buu. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe"
The quote identifies that this was the Buu that Goku defeated and identified the time when it says "in the end." Plus I'd argue that in that specific moment both Buus were already weaker. Super Buu was reduced to his basic Super Buu self and Fat Buu was weaker from the split. So there's no contradiction required.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The ideology is 'possibility'. Vegeta knows Goku was surpassed by Kid Buu (whom is still the current threshold of power, not Super Buu) and he says he is definitely number one, but makes a distinction between that and the Universe. There is no way around this.

Vegeta doesn't say anything about other possible guys that may exist in the universe. You assume that Vegeta believes that there are other possible guys that are stronger than them in the universe, just like I assume that Vegeta calls Goku the strongest full-blooded Saiyan. There isn't only one interpretation about this, bt mine is just consistent with the manga.

That is really stretching things for what they were.

Since when is analizing what everyone did against Beerus "stretching"?

Beerus got manhandled momentarily.

For this to happen, Vegeta must had surpassed him. If he had surpassed him, he would have done damage to him.

Beerus commented on Vegeta's fighting sense prior to Vegeta becoming enraged.

I know that. I was talking here about the first Beerus vs Vegeta fight.

There is no such thing as 'impossibility' in Dragonball.

What are you talking about?

(the H-word) should have been killed by Kid Buu, after Kid Buu puked out Buu, but he wasn't. So no, the levels don't have to vary. The feats are there so us, the viewers, can determine who is stronger than who.

So, Mr. Satan is close to Cell & Pure Boo in terms of power, since he survived hits from them?

Because Goku is the current threshold of power.

There is no evidence that prove this, there are only evidence within Super & BoG that show that this may be the case, while the manga shows that this isn't actually the case.

[h0kuten]

I'm not going to bother to respond to these other replies because we have 2 scenarios where Vegeta calls Goku #1 and makes a distinction between what he knows about and doesn't know about. For example the Earth verse Universe. It's also not contradicted. It's time to stop being a Gohan fanboy.

There is no way around this.

[Darkprince410]

I'm not going to bother to respond to these other replies because we have 2 scenarios where Vegeta calls Goku #1 and makes a distinction between what he knows about and doesn't know about. For example the Earth verse Universe. It's also not contradicted. It's time to stop being a Gohan fanboy.

There is no way around this.

Except clearly, as pointed out, Goku's strength wasn't involved for when Vegeta called him #1. He clearly states that because Goku defeated Ma-jin Buu, he's undeniably #1, yet Goku didn't defeat Buu using his own strength, which means that Vegeta considered him #1 for some reason other than being the strongest (which echoes his statements during Goku's fight with Pure Buu).

Can you link this source please? Just from what you posted though that doesn't sound nearly as definitive as the portion I posted

Herms paraphrased the translation as "Boo was weakened by having his absorptions undone."

Given this, and the fact that it's specifically using Vegeta ripping Mr. Buu from his cocoon to illustrate the example, then the guide is indicating that Mr. Buu being ripped out of Evil Buu resulted in him being weakened.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I'm not going to bother to respond to these other replies because we have 2 scenarios where Vegeta calls Goku #1 and makes a distinction between what he knows about and doesn't know about. For example the Earth verse Universe. It's also not contradicted. It's time to stop being a Gohan fanboy.

There is no way around this.

Except clearly, as pointed out, Goku's strength wasn't involved for when Vegeta called him #1. He clearly states that because Goku defeated Ma-jin Buu, he's undeniably #1, yet Goku didn't defeat Buu using his own strength, which means that Vegeta considered him #1 for some reason other than being the strongest (which echoes his statements during Goku's fight with Pure Buu).

Can you link this source please? Just from what you posted though that doesn't sound nearly as definitive as the portion I posted

Herms paraphrased the translation as "Boo was weakened by having his absorptions undone."

Given this, and the fact that it's specifically using Vegeta ripping Mr. Buu from his cocoon to illustrate the example, then the guide is indicating that Mr. Buu being ripped out of Evil Buu resulted in him being weakened.

I'm still trying to figure out why Vegeta states that he is second strongest next to Goku in DB Super if Gohan/Gotenks should be far above them? Surely he wouldn't leave their power out. That would be ridiculous. Why do Beerus and Whis completely ignore Gohan's power and are more interested in Vegeta/Goku's potential?

[Truhan]

I'm still trying to figure out why Vegeta states that he is second strongest next to Goku in DB Super if Gohan/Gotenks should be far above them? Surely he wouldn't leave their power out. That would be ridiculous. Why do Beerus and Whis completely ignore Gohan's power and are more interested in Vegeta/Goku's potential?

Gohan is a slacker, and not interested in training. Goku and Vegeta are, as pure Saiyans that they are. One thing is to judge one's potential go grow stronger, which in the Saiyan's case is limitless, and another is to judge a Hidden Potential, which doesn't multiply your Base power level, but sets a ceiling of power instead**.

**NOTE: Gohan has the same limitless potential of the Saiyans, but the Hidden Potential that was unlocked works like a fixed value, which can be surpassed with a SSJ3 transformation times a higher Base power level. Goku growing 2 times stronger to match Mystic Gohan doesn't seem like a stretch, in my opinion, but 4 times less than that (a SSJ2) means that Vegeta wouldn't be #2. Match Mystic Gohan with SSJ2 Vegeta, and Goku is 4 times stronger, which seems ridiculous. Vegeta was no match for Fat Buu, while Mystic Gohan stomped Super Buu, and we know that Super Buu is stronger than Fat Buu.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm not going to bother to respond to these other replies because we have 2 scenarios where Vegeta calls Goku #1 and makes a distinction between what he knows about and doesn't know about. For example the Earth verse Universe. It's also not contradicted. It's time to stop being a Gohan fanboy.

There is no way around this.

What are you talking about? First of all, I'm neither a Gohan nor a Gotenks fanboy, I'm a big Goku fanboy, but that doesn't mean that I'm not objective. You are trying to force your interpretations as facts, when they aren't. The manga is very clear that Gohan & Gotenks are on a level that Goku & Vegeta can't reach simply with training in the near future, and while the JSAT, BoG, and Super make Goku & Vegeta look better than Gohan & Gotenks, it is not necesarilly the case. It doesn't even have to be the case, since Goku & Vegeta get new power-ups that make them stronger than Vegetto. I mean, let's see the situations again:

• Gotenks goes Super Saiyan against Aka, yet SS Goku is the one that was forced to defeat him.
  • Either SS Goku is stronger than SS Gotenks, or
  • Gotenks was just fucking around, he transformed into a Super Saiyan to look cool, and after Aka started destroying the whole place, Goku took it seriously and took him out.
• Vegeta says that Goku is #1, the strongest Saiyan, and that while he is #2, one day he will surpass Goku and everyone in the universe, and will become the supreme #1.
  • Either Vegeta means that Goku is the strongest of all Saiyans, both full-blooded & Halflings, and believes in the possibility that there may be other more powerful guys in the universe, or
  • Vegeta means that Goku is the strongest full-blooded Saiyan, and wants to surpass him, Gotenks, Gohan, and any other possible more powerful guys in the universe that may exist.
• Kaio says that no one must annoy Beerus, and that SS3 Goku was defeated by 2 blows, which makes Vegeta panic.
  • Either Vegeta got paniced because Goku was the strongest and got defeated, or
  • Vegeta got paniced because after hearing about Goku, he believed Kaio saying that no one must touch Beerus, meaning that Beerus is stronger than everyone on Earth.
• Vegeta fought better that Gohan & Gotenks against Beerus.
  • Either Vegeta is stronger than them, or
  • Beerus wasn't interested in Gohan & Gotenks because they annoyed him, so he instantly KOed them, but took interest in Vegeta, who challenged him without annoying him. We know that supressed Beerus' power varied, since if he was hitting everyone with the same strength, half of them would have died.

It works both ways, but as far as I know, only one way is consistent with the manga. I choose consistency, except if you can prove that your opinion is consistent with the manga as well.