Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #1 Thread: "Broly"

[Doctor.]

It really isn't. The Saiyan backstory has been overdone. It was dealt with in the original series, developed even more in Z filler, brought up again in GT and retconned numerous times throughout Toriyama's interviews and Super.

Pardon, but I think I lost the track, what was retconned exactly?

Tsufruian lore, which was never present in the manga or even mentioned, has been added by Toriyama.

The SSG backstory also suffered a change from BoG to Super.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It really isn't. The Saiyan backstory has been overdone. It was dealt with in the original series, developed even more in Z filler, brought up again in GT and retconned numerous times throughout Toriyama's interviews and Super.

Pardon, but I think I lost the track, what was retconned exactly?

Tsufruian lore, which was never present in the manga or even mentioned, has been added by Toriyama.

The SSG backstory also suffered a change from BoG to Super.

The former isn't a retcon because it hasn't changed any previously established backstory.

Neither is the latter as, again, nothing has been changed to previously established backstory.

[Doctor.]

The former isn't a retcon because it hasn't changed any previously established backstory.

Neither is the latter as, again, nothing has been changed to previously established backstory.

No, but it makes us wonder what the hell Toriyama's interpretation of the Saiyan lore actually is. The Tsufruians were always an anime-only thing. For him to reference it, is he accepting it as part of his canon? If that's the case, then the anime's version of Saiyan lore contradicts his own.

The new movie could clear up questions as to what's the real story and what isn't, but it'll probably just raise more questions than it will answer.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The former isn't a retcon because it hasn't changed any previously established backstory.

Neither is the latter as, again, nothing has been changed to previously established backstory.

No, but it makes us wonder what the hell Toriyama's interpretation of the Saiyan lore actually is. The Tsufruians were always an anime-only thing. For him to reference it, is he accepting it as part of his canon? If that's the case, then the anime's version of Saiyan lore contradicts his own.

The new movie could clear up questions as to what's the real story and what isn't, but it'll probably just raise more questions than it will answer.

This happened with Bardock, as well. That TV special was anime-only, but Toriyama liked it and included the character in the manga later on.

When the man likes an idea that Toei's staff came up with, he rolls with it and includes it as part of the overall continuity.

[Meshack]

It really isn't. The Saiyan backstory has been overdone. It was dealt with in the original series, developed even more in Z filler, brought up again in GT and retconned numerous times throughout Toriyama's interviews and Super.

Pardon, but I think I lost the track, what was retconned exactly?

Tsufruian lore, which was never present in the manga or even mentioned, has been added by Toriyama.

The SSG backstory also suffered a change from BoG to Super.

The God backstory wasn’t changed at all. In Super, it was just said that the legend was in the Nameccian Book of Legends. We already know of the legend from Battle of Gods. It just wasn’t mentioned again in Super because... why? They want you to see Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, and Super. Not just pick one or the other. That’s why I hate it when people say to skip the first 27 episodes of Super.

Tsufruian lore was not changed. In an interview in 2014, Toriyama said that the Tsufruians invented the Scouters. It was said in Super that the Saiyans took over another planet before calling it Vegeta. Nothing was changed.

[Grimlock]

And it's really weird how they are avoiding mentioning "planet Plant" even after Toriyama mentioned Tsufurujins in 2014. Hopefully the movie address it by its proper name.

[sangofe]

Toriyama is the undisputed king of sucking at explaining things, having an entire movie where he's supposedly doing just that is a recipe for disaster. Does no one remember Minus? Having shit concepts like S-Cells and the like get brought in is but the cherry on an impending turd cake.

Well, hopefully his scripts and directions will be more precise than what they are on Dragon Ball Super. Hopefully...

The only good story he's written after the Freeza arc was him shifting around another person's script for, there's literally no chance this isn't a fusion of F & Minus levels of awful.

I disagree with you. I loved the Black/Zamasu/Trunks arc. I'm liking this new arc as well. With shifting around, you mean Battle of Gods? The F movie wasn't so bad - the F saga, on the other hand...

[Doctor.]

The movie was worse than the arc.

[sangofe]

The movie was worse than the arc.

Why do you think so?

[Doctor.]

The movie was worse than the arc.

Why do you think so?

The arc improved on some things the movie messed up. It showed Goku, Vegeta and Freeza's training. Goku isn't as out-of-character; while in the movie he didn't seem to care Freeza was wrecking havoc and just wanted a good fight, in the arc he was actually furious with Freeza for a good while. Vegeta's "betrayal" is immediately shut down and he interrupts Freeza trying to kill Goku, rather than having Freeza look like an idiot and ask Vegeta to kill him, thus giving him the chance to save him. Sorbet shoots base Goku instead of SSB Goku. Freeza feels more of a threat instead of getting beaten down twice. Vegeta actually has an upperhand on Goku for once, it's implied he's the stronger of the two and he's the one who found out Freeza's weakness first. Earth's destruction was better done. The foreshadowing for Whis' time travel was much more subtle.

They're both terrible anyway, but the arc wins a couple more points.

[sangofe]

The movie was worse than the arc.

Why do you think so?

The arc improved on some things the movie messed up. It showed Goku, Vegeta and Freeza's training. Goku isn't as out-of-character; while in the movie he didn't seem to care Freeza was wrecking havoc and just wanted a good fight, in the arc he was actually furious with Freeza for a good while. Vegeta's "betrayal" is immediately shut down and he interrupts Freeza trying to kill Goku, rather than having Freeza look like an idiot and ask Vegeta to kill him, thus giving him the chance to save him. Sorbet shoots base Goku instead of SSB Goku. Freeza feels more of a threat instead of getting beaten down twice. Vegeta actually has an upperhand on Goku for once, it's implied he's the stronger of the two and he's the one who found out Freeza's weakness first. Earth's destruction was better done. The foreshadowing for Whis' time travel was much more subtle.

They're both terrible anyway, but the arc wins a couple more points.

You've got some good points, but the art in the arc is just awful. I think the best experience is to watch the version of F that mixes the anime version and the movie mounted by Ajay.

[Black Hawk]

If I remember correctly, the design and backstory for the Tsufurujin race was done by Toriyama. Specifically, I believe it was included in notes he left for the anime staff. In that sense, Toriyama never "adopted" the Tsufurujin backstory into his overall story; it was already there, just not displayed.

[ABED]

Vegeta actually has an upperhand on Goku for once, it's implied he's the stronger of the two and he's the one who found out Freeza's weakness first.

This is in no way an improvement. Goku would naturally be the stronger of the two just by virtue of him having gotten there first, and he's the smarter of the two regarding battle and strategy.

[sintzu]

The Saiyan backstory has been overdone.

Both Saiyans and Freeza have been overused in modern DB. I really hope Super's next arc isn't Sadal as it'll be overkill to have an arc AND movie both heavily focused on Saiyans after already getting a lot from them in the current and previous arcs.

[Doctor.]

Vegeta actually has an upperhand on Goku for once, it's implied he's the stronger of the two and he's the one who found out Freeza's weakness first.

This is in no way an improvement. Goku would naturally be the stronger of the two just by virtue of him having gotten there first, and he's the smarter of the two regarding battle and strategy.

But Vegeta went to train with Whis first. It's an improvement because Goku has never had to deal with a training partner getting the gist of things better than him. It would actually be a way to explore another facet of his character and maybe showcase some frustration or even a tiny bit jealously, provided he doesn't just shrug it off, which is what he ended up doing.

[ABED]

The main character is a Saiyan and they seem like the only ones capable of keeping up at the current level, so them getting focus doesn't bother me. Going to the past does bug me.

But Vegeta went to train with Whis first. It's an improvement because Goku has never had to deal with a training partner getting the gist of things better than him. It would actually be a way to explore another facet of his character and maybe showcase some frustration or jealously, provided he doesn't just shrug it off.

Vegeta also went into the Room of Spirit and Time first. He was several years older and his society was far more advanced. Having the foot through the door first doesn't make him better. Goku doesn't get jealous. That isn't his character, it never has been. He looks at someone stronger than him with excitement, not jealousy or resentment.

[Black Hawk]

But Vegeta went to train with Whis first. It's an improvement because Goku has never had to deal with a training partner getting the gist of things better than him. It would actually be a way to explore another facet of his character and maybe showcase some frustration or even a tiny bit jealously, provided he doesn't just shrug it off, which is what he ended up doing.

While this is true of the anime adaptation, Toriyama stated in an interview regarding Revival of F that Gokū requested training from Whis and that Vegeta came along too because he refused to be left behind, suggesting they began their training at the same time in Toriyama's version of the story.

[sintzu]

Vegeta also went into the Room of Spirit and Time first. He was several years older and his society was far more advanced.

Vegeta trained on his own while Goku trained with Gohan. Yes Vegeta is older but Goku had the benefit of being trained by martial arts masters before and after meeting Vegeta, something Vegeta never did until Whis.

[Doctor.]

Vegeta also went into the Room of Spirit and Time first. He was several years older and his society was far more advanced. Having the foot through the door first doesn't make him better. Goku doesn't get jealous. That isn't his character, it never has been. He looks at someone stronger than him with excitement, not jealousy or resentment.

Vegeta was in for half of Goku's time and at the time he was being inhibited by his selfish, prideful and narcissistic personality traits that he no longer has.

Jealousy isn't inherently negative; I meant it as (friendly) frustration, the same way Kuririn, Tenshinhan and the lot look up to Goku's improvements.

The rivalry has been a part of the series since Z and Goku has surpassed Vegeta since Namek. The times that Vegeta surpassed Goku, the latter wasn't there to witness it. Vegeta's character arc ended at the Boo arc, it would be ironic and somewhat cathartic if he surpasses Goku the time he lets go of his obsession. If the series keeps trying to push this stagnant relationship down our throats, then I'm happy if they decide to try something new by having Vegeta gain the upper-hand during training. It puts both characters in a new situation they have to adapt to and it flips their roles, instead of rehashing the same arc over and over again.

While this is true of the anime adaptation, Toriyama stated in an interview regarding Revival of F that Gokū requested training from Whis and that Vegeta came along too because he refused to be left behind, suggesting they began their training at the same time in Toriyama's version of the story.

I was specifically talking about the anime's improvement on the movies. I'm aware.

[ABED]

How long do you think this dynamic should last? Goku is the main character after all. If one is stronger than the other, it's always a transient advantage. This is not actually much a new situation you are claiming.

Vegeta trained on his own while Goku trained with Gohan. Yes Vegeta is older but Goku had the benefit of being trained by martial arts masters before and after meeting Vegeta, something Vegeta never did until Whis.

Vegeta's problem wasn't that he trained alone, it's that he didn't figure out what Goku did. Goku's strategy for improvement was to make SSJ feel natural and start from the fundamentals. Even when he saw the results, Vegeta didn't even entertain the notion of emulating him. We don't know much about Vegeta's training. All we know is that he was incredibly strong from birth.