GT and misogyny

[ABED]

Obviously, we as the audience wouldn’t care about Paragus even remotely as much as we care about Kuririn, but Broly clearly does care for him. In terms of the in-universe “rules” of becoming a Super Saiyan, Broly’s transformation is pretty inline with how Goku first obtains the form, which would probably help explain why people weren’t mad about that.

But it continues and he keeps getting stronger all because he's really really really mad.

To be fair, the movie also establishes that Broly is a “mutation” who was already born with an absurd amount of latent power, which was why King Vegeta exiled him.

It's still a buy with the audience. Why was this mutation a sufficient explanation for his freakish power that rivaled gods that took our protagonist DECADES of training and some of the most intense battles ever, some of which cost him his life?

Mutation works for you all? It's a shorthand, not necessarily some great deep explanation. And you know what? It doesn't have to be. Just so it's clear, why we accept that is arbitrary.

[jjgp1112]

They got coaching from people with experience who could explain it to them in ways they could understand, he got strong because of a hissy fit.

And if memory serves, didn't Gohan turn Super Saiyan off screen in the manga? In a manga, is it "off panel"?


Goku had still gone through Hell during that tournament. He's not fresh, plus they are fused.

Nope, Gohan's transformation happens on-panel in the manga...it's just in considerably less dramatic fashion than the anime. He just thinks about stuff that pisses him off and...viola! In the anime, that part is adapted to a scene where that method almost works, but doesn't.

And yet people still have no issue with that.

By claiming stuff that they'll claim didn't happen to characters they like even though it did, and boiling it down to the quality of the writing, it suggests to me they are trying make an objective statement but so much of what we accept in a story is arbitrary. Why is this person so strong? They just are.

Well there is a consistent line with Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Future Trunks (well, if you can buy he employed the same method Gohan did off-screen in the manga), Cabba, and Broly with how they pull off Super Saiyan - anger (though the trigger for that anger get flimsier and flimsier). Plenty of people already complain about how Goten and Trunks cheapened it to begin with, and I think that then extends to Caulifla and Kale - even worse since you can't handwave it as them being mutant hybrids with Super Saiyan fathers like the brats.

[Soppa Saia People]

the 185th episode of the anime also adapts that version of gohan's transformation, it's so weird. i feel like a lot of people forget that.

[jjgp1112]

But it continues and he keeps getting stronger all because he's really really really mad.

To be fair, the movie also establishes that Broly is a “mutation” who was already born with an absurd amount of latent power, which was why King Vegeta exiled him.

It's still a buy with the audience. Why was this mutation a sufficient explanation for his freakish power that rivaled gods that took our protagonist DECADES of training and some of the most intense battles ever, some of which cost him his life?

Mutation works for you all? It's a shorthand, not necessarily some great deep explanation. And you know what? It doesn't have to be. Just so it's clear, why we accept that is arbitrary.

Well, in Broly's case the mutation is not only an exlanation but also woven into Broly's entire character and narrative, so even if it seems arbitrary in a vacuum it's valid thematically. Mutant that gets sent away for his frightening power and is cared for on a distant planet by his vengeance-obsessed father.

Broly being a mutant isn't some tacked on bullshit - it's the launching point of his entire story.

[KBABZ]

Broly being a mutant isn't some tacked on bullshit - it's the launching point of his entire story.

lol, the idea that Broly has any sort of story

[jjgp1112]

the 185th episode of the anime also adapts that version of gohan's transformation, it's so weird. i feel like a lot of people forget that.

You mean 158? I figure as much but I only ask because 185 also gets funky with adapting a Gohan transformation

[ABED]

With Goku and Trunks, the anger comes from grief. There's catharsis, especially with Goku. Vegeta on the other hand, it happens off screen. In the anime, his reason for getting so upset is he's angry AT HIMSELF! Why do we buy that but not some other mystical gobbledygook?

Goku is basically the best example of the transformation but not even because it was "built up". Yes, it's talked about and foreshadowed, but why it really works is not just because Goku loses his best friend and is left in a vulnerable position prior after a hellacious battle to the transformation, in a brilliant example of poetic justice and irony, he brings his own destruction on himself. He killed the Saiyans because he feared the Super Saiyan myth would come true, and in the end, he is the one that brought the myth to life, bringing about his own downfall. That's storytelling, not "if A is greater than B, and B is greater than C, we can surmise that A is greater than C" because not only is that not necessarily true, that isn't storytelling.

[jjgp1112]

Broly being a mutant isn't some tacked on bullshit - it's the launching point of his entire story.

lol, the idea that Broly has any sort of story

A mutant that gets exiled by the King because he's a threat to his son and grows up being groomed to exact revenge for it by his obsessive father isn't a story? Are we doing this today?

[goku the krump dancer]

Female demons/monsters are often depicted to either envy beautiful human women or dress like them to woe men and steal their souls or whatever.

Which unfortunately carries with it a variety of anti-Trans and anti-Women undertones.

In what way? I'm genuinely asking cuz I don't see it at all. The Demon is still female, she just finds it easier to consume souls by tricking men into believing she's human and most likely gets a kick out of seeing the dudes faces contort with fear as she reveals her true self.

Transwomen aren't evil , soul stealing monsters. From my understanding their biggest obstacle when it comes to men and romance, is finding "Cis-Men" who are okay with dating them despite 1.Still having a wee wee and 2.Still being genetically male themselves. Which hey, I'm sure its tough but it is what it is. Most men, myself included would be pretty weirded out (to say the least) if a chick we were seeing suddenly decided to show us a picture of herself when she was 10 and we see a boy holding a soccer ball. Which is why saying it up front is important and if you get rejected, its nothing personal, its just part of the dating game. "Cis- Men" get rejected ALL THE TIME!

[KBABZ]

Yes, it's talked about and foreshadowed

If anything it was OVER talked about! Read the Namek Arc from the Ginyu Force and take a shot every time Vegeta thinks somebody is a Super Saiyan; you'll be hammered before he even gets killed!

[ABED]

It's a story, sure, but it doesn't feel like it's thematically important and more just a way to rationalize how Broly is able to fight Goku and not get trampled. It's like how Uub and Buu now have God Ki. To bring this back to the main point, people bend over backwards to justify stuff that at the end of the day boils down to the audience buying something "just because". In spite of that, or because they evade that fact, female characters doing the same thing bothers them more.

[Soppa Saia People]

You mean 158? I figure as much but I only ask because 185 also gets funky with adapting a Gohan transformation

i actually just totally waffled on what people were talking about and thought you guys were talking about his SSJ2 transformation, lmao. my bad, but at least i was still sorta right if you just...mix around the numbers.

[LoganForkHands73]

Broly being a mutant isn't some tacked on bullshit - it's the launching point of his entire story.

lol, the idea that Broly has any sort of story

I've come to unironically realise it probably has the best (yet most accessible) story of all the Toriyama-headed movies.

[Koitsukai]

To be fair, the movie also establishes that Broly is a “mutation” who was already born with an absurd amount of latent power, which was why King Vegeta exiled him.

It's still a buy with the audience. Why was this mutation a sufficient explanation for his freakish power that rivaled gods that took our protagonist DECADES of training and some of the most intense battles ever, some of which cost him his life?

Mutation works for you all? It's a shorthand, not necessarily some great deep explanation. And you know what? It doesn't have to be. Just so it's clear, why we accept that is arbitrary.

Well, in Broly's case the mutation is not only an exlanation but also woven into Broly's entire character and narrative, so even if it seems arbitrary in a vacuum it's valid thematically. Mutant that gets sent away for his frightening power and is cared for on a distant planet by his vengeance-obsessed father.

Broly being a mutant isn't some tacked on bullshit - it's the launching point of his entire story.

That mutation is also the answer to the Super Saiyan legend, even if it's never explicitly said, we know that's who he is, he came to fill in the canon shoes original Broly wore, which were those of the LSS. That's why it is so easy to buy the "mutation". You could say people were actually expecting it to be the reason why he is so strong and not some non-saiyan-blood-related reason.

[ABED]

We don't need an explanation more than we got before about the Super Saiyan legend. If it's an answer, it's an answer to a question nobody asked. Sometimes the vaguest answer is the best because the more detailed one just ends up more fake sounding the more you explain it. It's why midichlorians were so silly, whereas "the force" worked perfectly fine.

[Koitsukai]

He's the LSS, that's it. That's why he's that strong.

[ABED]

He's the LSS, that's it. That's why he's that strong.

Exactly. No more explanation needed.

[jjgp1112]

He's the LSS, that's it. That's why he's that strong.

Exactly. No more explanation needed.

Well I mean, yeah, I think that's the greater point. The explanation for Broly's power serves the story well, and that's the most important part - not constency with lore. Even Goten and Trunks' SSJ works because of how it's framed as completely undercutting everything we're supposed to believe about Super Saiyan. Gohan's giving his fancy little spiel about how hard you need to work and how Goten's not even close and BOOM!

Caulifla and Kale it's just like yeah, whatever. Just feels arbitrary. It's been a while but I don't think Goku and co even have a significant reaction to it.

[ABED]

It would feel disingenuous if they did. At a certain point even for the characters, someone turning SSJ would feel old hat.

[WittyUsername]

Despite what I said about the tingly back thing, the fact is that Super Saiyans had long since been reduced to being a run-of-the-mill power-up, which is why Caulifla and Kale learning it so easily never particularly bothered me. Besides, Dragon Ball at this point is pretty merchandise driven, so it was inevitable that we would get more Super Saiyans.